Explosion on train at Parsons Green, 15/9/17

[ninja-lewis]

Yes they were once some years ago but recently they are anything but, and of course you know that full well.

Actually it is still true as AlterEgo is correctly counting Northern Ireland as part of the UK. Attempted IED and gun attacks on NI Security Forces are regular occurrences but most don't make it into the mainland news. Fortunately most IEDs are spotted and disarmed with few, if any casualties thanks to personal vigilance by potential targets (PSNI officers etc).

If you only count incidents on the mainland then yes Islamic terrorism will be the leading cause.

 

[nidave]

Apologies for the cynicism, but that seems to be code for "a Muslim was involved".

We had the bizarre case of a non-Muslim person convicted for trying to set a bomb off on The Tube and it was said to be "not terrorism related".

Terrorism is trying to create terror, and there seems to be a normalised racism in the way it is defined/excluded.:cry:

You aseem to be doing your very best to stir up controversy with this statement. It has not been established who is to blame and your so called "code word" is an attempt to get a response so you can come across as all high and mighy.

 

[Bromley boy]

Now that really does grind my gears - the stock response used by those members of the Right to excuse themselves of their twisted opinions.

So let's call it sectarianism...

Nope, it's just a statement of fact. If you look up the meaning of the words you might even be able to understand why. What about it "grinds your gears"?

Sounds like tin-foil hat stuff to me.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes they were once some years ago but recently they are anything but, and of course you know that full well.

That's just not correct and I would urge you to read the news in Northern Ireland before claiming otherwise. By volume, overwhelmingly, in the UK, there were more terror attacks by NI-based paramilitaries in 2016-17 than by Islamists. It is simply not correct to claim otherwise. As a frame of reference, there have been three Islamist attacks in the UK in the same time period (with today's currently uncategorised as we don't know who did it). I'm going to stick a finger in the air and say there were 50-100 attacks conducted by paramilitaries in NI, which include things like blowing up a prison officer, shooting the police (x several), kneecapping of delinquents (including one which went wrong and resulted in death), arson attacks on ethnic minorities to preserve paramilitary influence on estates, suspicious and viable devices left in public areas or on public infrastructure, a Royal Marine storing explosives in the woods,

Just because a bomb is on the railway line in Lurgan rather than London doesn't mean it doesn't count.

Perhaps you meant to describe Great Britain, at which point I would agree with you.

My overarching point is essentially that it's frustrating to continually see Northern Ireland totally forgotten about.

Obviously a motive is still pending for today's incident, which started off looking benign but now looks to be the work of a lunatic.

 

[bramling]

I wonder why they evacuated the next district line train between stations instead of wrong roading it back to the previous station.

Almost certainly because the juice was turned off in the early stages of the incident, and with hundreds of emergency services soon swarming about it was easier to do a detrainment than get a confirmation of everyone being clear of the track.

 

[700007]

The line to Wimbledon is closed until further notice and apparently the train involved is 21535-21536. My sincere thoughts and well wishes for all those who were caught up in the incident, particularly for the 22 injured people.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Luckily no serious or life threatening injuries are reported.

Lucky indeed that the device seemingly didn't explode 'properly'.

The worry of course is that if there's a next time, it will.

BBC reports suggest the device had a timer. If so, and if it was indeed unattended, I'd expect a renewed vigilance of unattended bags and packages on the public transport network in particular.

 

[Bletchleyite]

See it, say it.......

 

[55003]

I have been concerned of the effects of a fire or terrorist incident on stock that is open its' entire length. Was this considered before this design was introduced? Any smoke or blast can easily contaminate the entire train rather than being contained in one carriage.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I have been concerned of the effects of a fire or terrorist incident on stock that is open its' entire length. Was this considered before this design was introduced? Any smoke or blast can easily contaminate the entire train rather than being contained in one carriage.

Certainly in terms of fire, nothing happens on London Underground without it being considered very carefully.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed. Not to devalue the severity of the incident and thoughts to all involved the BBC continue to report 'Tube Train' and 'Parsons Green Train Station'.

I won't mention the lack of apostrophe in the Green belonging to one or more Parsons.

Firstly the terminology is unimportant given the potential seriousness of the incident.

Secondly I have lived in London for over 30 years and everyone but everyone refers to the Underground as "the tube".

Frankly all I will say is get over yourself; as long as the message is clearly conveyed to the watching audience no-one actually cares what a random internet train geek thinks....

Quite honestly, in this kind of incident it really is not important.

Yup!

 

[WatcherZero]

Luckily no serious or life threatening injuries are reported.

Most injuries reported to be crush as people fell on to the platform getting out of the train and others walked over them, 18 taken to hospital and another 4 self admissions, couple of people with burns one man has singed hair and a large welt similar to a light sun/steam burn and another person was reported as having their trousers burnt off and taking minor burns to their legs.

There was a timer in the device, if it did explode prematurely they will be looking at the burn victims to see if any were the carrier. In the event it failed to go off properly and became more of a flash incendiary than an explosive.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed. Not to devalue the severity of the incident and thoughts to all involved the BBC continue to report 'Tube Train' and 'Parsons Green Train Station'.

I won't mention the lack of apostrophe in the Green belonging to one or more Parsons.

Parsons Green does not have an apostrophe. Neither does Barons Court. Earl's Court does, though.

Re: The Tube, the District Line is a Tube line: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/

Whoops.

 

[KN1]

Sky's terrorism expert has described the incident as 'classic jihadi terrorism'
He said it almost certainly was destined for a bigger place and went off accidentally.

 

[WelshBluebird]

All this talk about how it must be Islamic terrorism, are you lot forgetting the kid from Devon who got 15 years in prison earlier this year? Wait until we actually get some facts before automatically making assumptions!

 

[Bromley boy]

All this talk about how it must be Islamic terrorism, are you lot forgetting the kid from Devon who got 15 years in prison earlier this year? Wait until we actually get some facts before automatically making assumptions!

In fairness, I don't think anyone has actually said that.

Agreed we need to wait for the facts before discussing motives etc. although I hope we can all agree calling this an act of terorrism shouldn't be controversial in itself.

 

[Dent]

All this talk about how it must be Islamic terrorism, are you lot forgetting the kid from Devon who got 15 years in prison earlier this year? Wait until we actually get some facts before automatically making assumptions!

What "talk about how it must be islamic terrorism"? I don't see any anywhere in this thread, or indeed in any report I've seen of this incident.

 

[Mojo]

All this talk about how it must be Islamic terrorism, are you lot forgetting the kid from Devon who got 15 years in prison earlier this year?

The Autistic man who sometimes read the Koran, made enquiries into Islamic extremism, downloaded an Al Qaeda magazine containing bomb-making manual and wrote a bomb-making shopping list signed off with words about Allah?

 

[KN1]

Suspect identified by the Police.

 

[Lockwood]

This was a chap with learning difficulties who planted a device on a tube train which did not detonate. He was rightly sentenced to a lengthy prison sentence. The case was investigated by anti terrorist officers. The judge sentencing him, not the media, stated that his motivations were not terrorism related.

In total isolation to the current incident and the incident referred to here, it is quite possible to plant an IED and it not be terrorism. If Bob wanted to kill or hurt a lot of people because he felt like it (say severe mental health issues, with a recent traumatic incident causing increased instability), but not for a cause it would not fall under the definition of terrorism.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1

 

[BestWestern]

I agree.

I was responding to a poster who believes the media describing this incident as terrorism - without naming any suspects - is somehow a "racist" attack on Muslims.

Indeed, having read again whilst not also trying to cook breakfast, I should have quoted the other post. My sausages and I apologise!

 

[Bromley boy]

In total isolation to the current incident and the incident referred to here, it is quite possible to plant an IED and it not be terrorism. If Bob wanted to kill or hurt a lot of people because he felt like it (say severe mental health issues, with a recent traumatic incident causing increased instability), but not for a cause it would not fall under the definition of terrorism.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1

(a)the action falls within subsection (2),
(b)the use or threat is designed to influence the government [F1or an international governmental organisation] or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and
(c)the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious [F2, racial] or ideological cause.

That's interesting - I suppose it all turns on whether "because they felt like it" can be translated into an "ideological cause". Does it have to be a cause shared by others?

I'd imagine if you asked most people for their definition of terrorism, they would place most weight on (b). The act of placing a bomb onto a train is clearly intended to intimidate to the public at large, irrespective of motive.

 

[class387]

Awful attack. Very glad that no one seems to have been seriously injured.

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting that some sources describe this as "classic jihadism" - jihadism usually entails blood sacrifice - suicide bombings, walking around with weapons until they are themselves killed, etc.

This seems to be a device with a timer, which suggests the perpetrator was going to leave the device somewhere and walk off, a much different modus operandi.

While it's best to keep an open mind, the amateurish construction, the probability the perpetrator didn't intend to be present at detonation (it's suggested the device was being transported for use somewhere "bigger") - make me believe it might not be jihadism and could be something totally unconnected.

 

[Cowley]

Interesting that some sources describe this as "classic jihadism" - jihadism usually entails blood sacrifice - suicide bombings, walking around with weapons until they are themselves killed, etc.

This seems to be a device with a timer, which suggests the perpetrator was going to leave the device somewhere and walk off, a much different modus operandi.

While it's best to keep an open mind, the amateurish construction, the probability the perpetrator didn't intend to be present at detonation (it's suggested the device was being transported for use somewhere "bigger") - make me believe it might not be jihadism and could be something totally unconnected.

I agree. It's not looking like any of the recent attacks where martyrdom plays a huge part.

 

[theageofthetra]

Looks like the explosive didn't detonate properly.

5 stations prior to Parsons Green where that could have been placed on the train so CCTV footage will no doubt have the person(s) responsible.

and no one noticed it?

 

[AlterEgo]

and no one noticed it?

Noticed what?

 

[D60]

Interesting that some sources describe this as "classic jihadism" - jihadism usually entails blood sacrifice - suicide bombings, walking around with weapons until they are themselves killed, etc.

This seems to be a device with a timer, which suggests the perpetrator was going to leave the device somewhere and walk off, a much different modus operandi.

While it's best to keep an open mind, the amateurish construction, the probability the perpetrator didn't intend to be present at detonation (it's suggested the device was being transported for use somewhere "bigger") - make me believe it might not be jihadism and could be something totally unconnected.

Whilst it's true that most recent jihadist terror attacks have been as you describe, the security and anti-terrorism sources that have been quoted, have indicated that what is so far known about the method of assembly of this device, does conform with methods as recommended on jihadist internet sites..

 

[Antman]

Noticed what?

I assume he means the 'builders bucket' containing the device?

Most people are too engrossed on their phones to notice very much, that's not a criticism I'm just as bad.

 

[AlterEgo]

I assume he means the 'builders bucket' containing the device?

Most people are too engrossed on their phones to notice very much, that's not a criticism I'm just as bad.

As it seems possible (speculation) that the device was being transported to a different location, it seems possible also that the perpetrator might have been stood next to it, "owning" the bag. The perpetrator might even be in hospital.

Even if the perpetrator was not present: Trouble is, a bag on the floor is hardly a rare sight on the Tube. I usually put mine down by my feet when the train is very busy. An unattended bag may not look unattended.