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Extent of Quadruple Track from London termini

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hwl

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I would have said Euston to Crewe S Jn, as there are 4 or 6 (or more) lines all the way - until you get to the 3 track pinch point visible here: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/crewe#T_CREWE
The reality is there are the 2/4 tracks on independent lines that aren't shown on that open train times map so in reality the pinch is 5 tracks not 3...

So Winsford South Jn if avoiding heading to Manchester
 
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swt_passenger

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Although where would you draw the line on the other side of London Bridge when those Thameslink tracks head towards New Cross Gate with the 2 tracks used by Charing Cross trains dive underneath to carry on towards New Cross to run alongside the tracks from Cannon Street?
It has a name, but let me find it. Southwark Park Rd Jn perhaps?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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ECML almost until Peterborough except for across the Welwyn Viaduct
Though you have got the Hertford Loop, so in some ways you could argue it is a 4 track railway all the way.

The ECML drops to 3 tracks north of Huntingdon (MP59), and then to 2 tracks after Connington (MP69) before resuming 4 tracks at Fletton (MP75).
The ECML does now have the upgraded GN-GE line via Lincoln for some extra slow lines between Peterborough and Doncaster, but they are not electrified.
The WCML is effectively a 4-track electrified railway as far as Crewe (MP158) or even Winsford (MP165) if you count the Independent Lines.
There will imminently be independent electrified routes (4-track or 2x2 track) all the way to Preston when the Bolton route goes live.
 

The Planner

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How is the WCML 4 track to Crewe? What about Brinklow to Attleborough? If you are being ridiculously tenuous with this then its 8 track as you are counting the route through New St and the Grands via Stechford, Aston, Bescot and Bushbury.
 

AndrewE

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The reality is there are the 2/4 tracks on independent lines that aren't shown on that open train times map so in reality the pinch is 5 tracks not 3...

So Winsford South Jn if avoiding heading to Manchester
You are quite right. It's definitely the "Premier Line!"
 

LNW-GW Joint

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How is the WCML 4 track to Crewe? What about Brinklow to Attleborough? If you are being ridiculously tenuous with this then its 8 track as you are counting the route through New St and the Grands via Stechford, Aston, Bescot and Bushbury.

Yes, I was counting the West Midlands route.
Isn't that how it works strategically, certainly during disruption?
The new LNR through services demonstrate the capability (including the Stoke loop as well).
 

causton

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Yes, I was counting the West Midlands route.
Isn't that how it works strategically, certainly during disruption?
The new LNR through services demonstrate the capability (including the Stoke loop as well).
Where do you draw the line though?

Is Birmingham to Edinburgh four-track at least all the way - just two tracks via the WCML and two tracks via the ECML?
Or London to Glasgow - two tracks Euston - Glasgow Central and the other two Kings Cross - Edinburgh - Glasgow Queen Street? :lol:
 

swt_passenger

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Where do you draw the line though??

Well obviously there's four tracks from Waterloo to Southampton if you just include the instantly renamed "Havant Loop". :D

The answers are getting pretty tenuous, I reckon the OP needs to come back and clarify what he wanted - as is usual with these sort of threads...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Where do you draw the line though?
Is Birmingham to Edinburgh four-track at least all the way - just two tracks via the WCML and two tracks via the ECML?
Or London to Glasgow - two tracks Euston - Glasgow Central and the other two Kings Cross - Edinburgh - Glasgow Queen Street? :lol:

Well, NR has promised that one London-Scotland route will always be open (by not scheduling engineering work on both lines simultaneously).
So at the strategic level, and on the top-level connectivity map, yes, London-Glasgow/Edinburgh is 4-tracked (6 if you count the Midland/G&SW route).
The "Any Permitted" fares system also allows travel on all these routes.
Freight, and the Caley sleepers, certainly use the 4-track capability during the repeated WCML holiday blocks.
And we now talk about "6-tracking" the WCML with the construction of HS2.
 

Lucan

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The answers are getting pretty tenuous, I reckon the OP needs to come back and clarify what he wanted -...
Well I did suggest a clarification, further down Page 1. I reckoned it did not matter if the fast and slow pairs diverged as long as one (or both) of them had no stations on it. In that way the line is operationally no different from if the pairs stayed within 10ft of each other and the fast lines went through the stations on tracks without platform faces.

So the WCML would count as four tracks even between Roade and Rugby with the Northampton loop because the fast avoiding line has no stations; ditto in the area of the Quarry Line avoiding Redhill on the Brighton line.

Any other definition leads to some absurdities!
 

AndrewE

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Well obviously there's four tracks from Waterloo to Southampton if you just include the instantly renamed "Havant Loop". :D
The answers are getting pretty tenuous, I reckon the OP needs to come back and clarify what he wanted - as is usual with these sort of threads...
Fair point, perhaps we should re-read the question:
Up to what points are the main lines from London quadruple track?
It's a good point that there are no stations on the fast lines avoiding Northampton, and a pity that it spoils my claiming the line through Bescot as making the WCML quadruple even though Shugborough tunnel is only double track!
 

Lucan

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The Metropolitan Line from Baker Street to the Watford Triangle South Junction.

The Jubilee provides the slow line pair as far as Wembley Park, albeit starting from Baker Street at a lower level. From Wembley Park the Jubilee turns away but the Met becomes four-track anyway. The Great Central's two tracks have been alongside from Finchley Road and through Wembley Park, and at Harrow-on-the-Hill the GC merges with the Met fast lines to continue the four tracks to Watford Triangle.
 

Dr_Paul

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Waterloo - Barnes, on the Windsor side (unless you want to count the Hounslow loop?)

Not quite: it's down to three lines at the flying junction at Nine Elms and through Queenstown Road, then back to four by Clapham Junction.
 

Sunset route

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Operationally we treat the railway as a four track railway from London Victoria ( also London Bridge) to Balcombe Tunnel Junction.
 

3141

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I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Midland line from St. Pancras to Glendon South, 75 miles, used to hold the record for the longest stretch of quadruple track in the world?

I thought I'd read 76 miles, but it certainly was the longest 4-track line in Britain when the Sharnbrook Tunnel line was double all the way.

Well I did suggest a clarification, further down Page 1. I reckoned it did not matter if the fast and slow pairs diverged as long as one (or both) of them had no stations on it. In that way the line is operationally no different from if the pairs stayed within 10ft of each other and the fast lines went through the stations on tracks without platform faces.

So the WCML would count as four tracks even between Roade and Rugby with the Northampton loop because the fast avoiding line has no stations; ditto in the area of the Quarry Line avoiding Redhill on the Brighton line.

Any other definition leads to some absurdities!

But I think it's absurd to say that the line from Roade via Northampton to Rugby is part of a 4-track WCML. Basically, the four tracks need to be together. The Quarry line is acceptable as it's clearly intended to be a quadrupling of the Brighton Main Line and diverges (presumably) because of geographical and constructional factors. Similarly I'd include the MML north of Bedford, despite the divergence in places between the two pairs of tracks and the existence of Sharnbrook Tunnel on one pair. I'd also consider the Metropolitan Line between the junction just west of Kings Cross and Moorgate to have been quadruple track, although the City Widened Lines switch from the north side to the south side of the original line and there are stations on both lines. You apparently wouldn't accept that as quadruple track because both pairs have stations along the way, but I think it's much more obviously quadruple than the line that wanders off to Northampton.
 

DY444

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London Bridge to Orpington.

If we're counting the Quarry line, one would be tempted to say Victoria to Swanley (counting the Catford loop), although strictly speaking there's a short bit with three tracks North of Factory junction, so maybe a bit tenuous.

If you include the two running lines that go down through Stewarts Lane then you've got 5 between Factory Jn and Battersea Pier
 

70014IronDuke

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Eh? It's double throughout!

Is it? I thought they'd singled it in c 1990?

It doesn't make sense: why single Kettering - Corby, but leave Corby - Manton double? Surely there was never the traffic to justify that after closure as a passenger route?
 

talltim

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I thought it was just in the UK, and presumably will be so again when the current upgrade is complete. Although it is now only 2 tracks into St Pancras.
The PRR mainline from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh (via the Horseshoe curve) used to be quadrupal track. 244.4 miles
 

hwl

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Is it? I thought they'd singled it in c 1990?

It doesn't make sense: why single Kettering - Corby, but leave Corby - Manton double? Surely there was never the traffic to justify that after closure as a passenger route?
Double, remember the steel works didn't entirely close (just primary steel making closed not the tube plant that is still open) remianing freight traffic would have been more important to have good north bound connections???
As always probably about what needed renewals at the time.

A few miles of double south of Manton possibly also helped keep Peterborough - Syston clearer?
 

yorksrob

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If you include the two running lines that go down through Stewarts Lane then you've got 5 between Factory Jn and Battersea Pier

I'd forgotten about the low level lines (although I have travelled them by EPB).
 

AndrewE

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The PRR mainline from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh (via the Horseshoe curve) used to be quadrupal track. 244.4 miles
... but not from a London terminus. We have got used to everything being bigger in America!
 

70014IronDuke

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Double, remember the steel works didn't entirely close (just primary steel making closed not the tube plant that is still open) remianing freight traffic would have been more important to have good north bound connections???
As always probably about what needed renewals at the time.

A few miles of double south of Manton possibly also helped keep Peterborough - Syston clearer?

Well, operations will always welcome double track versus single, whatever the traffic density, I imagine!

I bow to your better knowledge - my assumption that it was singled was because I visited a lonely part of the line south of Manton back in 1990, and I was sure one track was out of use. It certainly appeared so. Whatever, bully good that the line is still double - just surprising, given the singling that when on in so many places, only to be reversed at great expense and trouble 20 years later.
 

RichardN

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I thought I'd read 76 miles, but it certainly was the longest 4-track line in Britain when the Sharnbrook Tunnel line was double all the way.



But I think it's absurd to say that the line from Roade via Northampton to Rugby is part of a 4-track WCML. Basically, the four tracks need to be together. The Quarry line is acceptable as it's clearly intended to be a quadrupling of the Brighton Main Line and diverges (presumably) because of geographical and constructional factors. Similarly I'd include the MML north of Bedford, despite the divergence in places between the two pairs of tracks and the existence of Sharnbrook Tunnel on one pair. I'd also consider the Metropolitan Line between the junction just west of Kings Cross and Moorgate to have been quadruple track, although the City Widened Lines switch from the north side to the south side of the original line and there are stations on both lines. You apparently wouldn't accept that as quadruple track because both pairs have stations along the way, but I think it's much more obviously quadruple than the line that wanders off to Northampton.

I'd say it is wrong to include the Northampton loop under even Lucan's definition as historically Blisworth and Weedon stations were on the line that avoids Northampton, so it was originally an independent line with stations as opposed to a pure by-pass track.
 
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