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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by reddragon, 16 Apr 2019.
What's the point of this comment?
They been a bit of a pest down here as well. It's been pointed out to them how blocking public transport isn't a good idea given it's a tool to help reduce emissions. Our tram network for instance is powered by solar yet they block off the streets with the trams on them!
That’s because they’re misguided idiots/eco extremists supported by left wing liberals with a do as I say not what I do approach eg Emma Thompson flying from Los Angeles to London to protest
and others who should know better then to ruin their name by association eg Chris Packham who has done great things for animal welfare but now has ruined his reputation.
If they want to protest btw, let them BUT they will be picking up the bill for the policing needed!
Rather frivolous "aside" on serious subject: I don't, as a rule, closely follow the news (reprehensible, perhaps; but yielding for me, benefits in the peace-of-mind department). I first learned of the existence of Extinction Rebellion a couple of months ago, when told by my brother that his 24-year-old daughter -- a very earnest young woman, deeply concerned about Earth's plight -- had joined said movement. I said to brother (we're able to engage in "black humour" without offence being caused): "Oh, dear -- can we expect her to come around some time soon, and 'off' us?" Brother gently explained to me that the name "Extinction Rebellion" does not mean that the members are rebelling against humankind's abuse of the planet, through seeking -- by whatever means -- to render humankind extinct. (My niece is, in any case, a most gentle soul: murder not a thing which she would engage in, however great the temptation.)
Hey guys, can I just point out that short term transport disruption is not more important that the survival of humanity, but I agree that it is inconvenient.
Extinction Rebellion themselves have apologised for the disruption, saying that it's the only way to get proper action to be taken before it's too late.
How will their actions change anything, exactly?
The idea is it will make the govt take action as they'll realise how many people feel so strongly about the climate issue.
Yes, I get that's the idea. In reality it won't translate into action. Call me a buzzkill but fighting for the government's attention at this moment in time is a pointless exercise.
Not much else they can do though. Got to be better than nothing.
What else do they do? Give up and go home? "The future of the planet is at stake but Dominic Cummings won't listen, so we might as well not bother." No. Something has to happen, and this is probably the best way of forcing some sort of action. Occupying parts of the capital city is going to be a lot more effective than sending a strongly-worded petition to the Environment Secretary.
But effective -how-? I can keep asking all day but I fear we'd be going around in circles..
Bottom line; outside of treating XR as a minor nuisance the government are going to take as much notice of them as they are with to a 'strongly worded petition'. That's all there is to it.
A petition can easily be ignored. An occupation of parts of one's capital city can't be. Resources have to be dedicated to it (police have already been called in from all forces in England and Wales), and it will get the issue on the public agenda. Would it be on the news were it not for these protests? (Answer: no.)
There were other sentences which I typed that haven't been quoted but are relevant. Essentially, even if it isn't going to be effective, I'd much rather be in a position to say "we really tried, but government ignored us" rather than just assuming nothing will happen and sit at home feeling sorry for the world.
Take this analogy: I will turn up to climate protests for the same reason I would punch a bear that was eating me. I don't think it's going to work, but at least then it doesn't look like I wanted to be eaten by the bear.
A quick google shows that the UK is 15th on the list of top polluting countries for total CO2 Emissions. Of the 14 above us, 4 have a smaller population than the UK. Per Capita CO2 Emissions, the UK is 8th with the two above us having a smaller population.
Maybe these people would be better spending their time lobbying the Embassies of those above us in the lists to do their bit rather than hassle the normal folk and presumably cause more pollution in the process. As I said before, their cause is lost in their constant disruption and idiocy (and self-righteousness and hypocrisy). I am still waiting for them to suggest banning bonfires around November...
That I can get behind..to an extent. P***ing off the bear isn't something I'm keen on doing either. XR's current efforts risk being counterproductive and alienating people. While I can't pretend I know of more effective ways to make a point for the climate change cause, this way really isn't working.
It works better when it’s ‘real people’.
It doesn’t do the cause much good for the coverage to be of hippies dancing and doing yoga - that just associates climate change as ‘crazy folk’ nonsense.
That maybe if they want to change the heating of the earth, maybe they should target those countries who produce the most pollution? Rather than the easy target of causing trouble within London and costing the taxpayer money (all that extra police work, clean-up costs etc)
Even if the UK suddenly disappeared, worldwide it won't make much of an impact, not compared to the likes of USA/Russia/China.
Maybe if their aims were more realistic, rather than zero carbon by 2025 they would be more worthy.
That image is largely a media concoction designed so that one doesn't have to engage with the actual reasons for the protests.
It isn’t ‘concocted’ by the media. The hippies make a big colourful scene so the media are obviously going to use the better images.
So, your solution to the climate crisis is for people to fly out en-masse to China to protest there? Brilliant. Can't see any problems with that.
Slightly more seriously:
The UK: The 40% cut we claim has occured since 1990 does not take into account air travel nor shipping. IE: Products shipped to us from oversees do not get included in our total. Thus, the figures do not show the true burden that Global North states have on the world's environment.
Secondly, just because the UK isn't the 'worst' doesn't mean we're any good.
Thirdly, there are climate protests in the USA and Russia. This is a global movement where people in their own states protests against their own governments and the global elite as a whole for their lack of action.
Look at the stick that Helen Mirren got for flying over from the US to address XR protestors in the UK. You can't have it both ways.
"Oh, you travelled on a polluting aircraft? You hypocritical bunch of hippies!"
"Oh, you're not in China? You hypocritical bunch of hippies!"
The fact that the movement gets attacked simultaneously for not being abroad, and travelling abroad demonstrates to me that it is purely a method of the mass kidding of the public so that they don't have to properly engage in discussion.
Re China: It happens to be a dictatorship. There are attempts to have protests, but they tend to get shut down.
Hong Kong is the exception, but I'm sure you can forgive the people for protesting against their fundamental and basic freedoms and human rights rather than the climate. Both are very important.
Finally, the serious lack of action before means that drastic action has to be taken now. If people had taken the threat posed by climate change seriously 10-20 years ago, such change would not be required all at once. However, the lack of action before means that we have to take all the action in one go now.
I'm going to need a working definition of 'real people' and 'hippies' before I can make an informed response.
XR etc could make a bigger effort at stopping imports from China, which are a bad thing on all sorts of levels.
How do you know that this isn't one of their aims? "Buy local" has been one of the hallmarks of getting individuals to reduce their carbon emission for years.
They aren’t pushing it very hard. I would be after a policy specifically targeting China.
If the west decides to go green, then the west can tell China that they won't import from them unless they follow suit.
Again, how do you know this [they aren't pushing it hard]?
Secondly, why a policy specifically targeting China? Why not one which gets people to buy carbon-neutral products?
Thirdly, how does any of this negate the fact that climate change is a serious threat that requires significant global action?
So far, the government has declared a climate emergency. That is the part 1 of the 3 part XR bill.
If they were pushing it hard I would have heard about it.
Specifically China because they are a massive exporter, massive polluter, and have an appalling human rights record so are all round a bad place for us to be supporting by exporting our pollution (at the cost of jobs here).
But China isn't the only state to fall fouls of those 3 principles. Thus, one should branch it out to all states who violate them.
We reduced our CO2 outputs by off shoring manufacturing to China. We could stop that or tell China that we will only buy low carbon / CO2 free.
Don't blame China for you being able to by dirty cheap TVs, mobiles and toys!
But China has such huge scale it is the best place to start
Exactly - get public opinion against cheap polluting imports
So many of the objectors here seem to be finding ways of justifying that protest be held elsewhere (where it doesn't inconvenience them). We (as in UK consumers) are a significant part of the problem, - not as some would have it just 'suffering from protests' orchestrated by selfish hiipes. Whenever drivers queueing in traffic held by up protests are interviewed, the standard response is that the fact that they are being delayed increases emissions. They are usually sitting there in their vehicles with the engine running. Maybe if they were delayed every day for a week, some of them might think twice about making yet another delayed journey, - thereby reducing emissions, if their thought processes manage to escape from their own self pity.
How are we going to sort out the climate change thing. We would need to stop making petrol and diesel cars tomorrow and to electrify more parts of the country and power everything from water,sun or wind. I seems not possible at the moment but we are doing something, like low energy light bulbs and led lighting of our streets.