Extra Cambrian and Heart of Wales servies -your experiences

[PHILIPE]

There don't seem to be any members of the Forum who reside in, or are in contact with events on the Heart of Wales line unfortunately. There are a number of Yahoo Groups who seem to know about everything that is happening throughout Wales but seem focused almost exclusively on Freight locomotives.

 

[Llanigraham]

So does anyone know how the new-look HoW service is faring in terms of passengers?

From friends that live in Llanwrtyd, there seems to be a few more using the trains in both directions.
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Wouldn't tourists take direct trains rather than bus connections?

But sometimes the bus is the only to get to some places!
Rhayader for example.

 

[swcovas]

There don't seem to be any members of the Forum who reside in, or are in contact with events on the Heart of Wales line unfortunately. There are a number of Yahoo Groups who seem to know about everything that is happening throughout Wales but seem focused almost exclusively on Freight locomotives.

I was brought up on the HOWL and always take a keen interest in what's happening on the line and regularly chip in my bit to the Forum on the subject. Like others I am also intrigued to know how the new services are doing but unfortunately or fortunately I live in Portugal and have done for a number of years and only get over there once or twice a year. As jimm says in post #52 both the Heart of Wales Forum and the HOWLTA websites are useless when it comes divulging much in the way of news as I have mentioned a number of times before.

I was in UK briefly in early June and made a trip on the line from Shrewsbury to Llandeilo on the 0900 on June 6th. However, this being a Saturday when the tt is exactly the same as previously, it wasn't the best day to make any judgements. Loading seemed to hover round the 25/35 mark, nothing exceptional. I had a chat with the crew and the staff at Llandod (can't remember how I had time to do so.....guess we must have been running early) all of whom reckoned they hadn't seen much difference yet though it WAS early days somewhat cynically adding "wait til october when the locals can travel free then we'll see the difference!" The Llandod staff member did seriously say though that there was a negative side for locals coming into Llandod in the morning compared to the old tt which I didn't quite get. Incidentally unit was 150217.

It's unfortunate that this Forum doesn't appear to have a member of HOWLTA who could enlighten us. Perhaps Forum member Greenback from Llanelli (if you read this)could take a wander down to Llanelli station one weekday morning at about 0740 and see what loadings are like coming into Llanelli on that first train??? Other than that my next visit will be in November when I shall certainly make a few trips on the line.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I might ask "formally" how the HoW extras are doing - through a contact.

Just a bit of interest and history personally ...any news on the refurb of Pantyffynon station would be welcomed)

Maybe we should ask Greenback to take a ride - for a small fare consideration !

 

[PHILIPE]

I think an aspect that people have been very anxious to learn about is regarding the first up in the morning from Llandrindod Wells to Crewe. When the first train was 04 36 from Swansea to Shrewsbury and which conveyed many students, mostly from Craven Arms and Church Stretton to Shrewsbury for a 09 00 start. The 153 became standing room only and the diagram was subsequently changed to provide a 150 due to this overcrowding. When the Timetable changed in May, the first train ran half an hour earlier resulting in the commuters having to get up earlier and hang around in Shrewsbury and revert to a 153. In the period leading up to the Timetable change, there were rather vociferous protests from the area, also claiming they only learnt about the arrangements at a late stage. What could have contributed to this late info could have been the fact the additionals were initiated by the Welsh Government and as Craven arms and Church Stretton are in England they were not consulted,
Perhaps Greenbank, as has been suggested, could manage to obtain some gen on the new Llandovery to Swansea service in the morning.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If it has to make the journey anyway and has a crew on board, then why not allow passengers to use it if they want, however modest the number on board in the early stages of the journey? It's a few quid in the farebox - and how 'commercial' are any services on the Cambrian routes anyway, given the hefty subsidy that ATW gets?

There's nothing unusual about trains like this being opened up to passengers. There are a couple of examples on my doorstep on the Cotswold Line. The current 05.14 from Oxford to Worcester ran for some time as empty stock from Reading or Oxford to Moreton-in-Marsh, where it then entered passenger service, even though it was crewed throughout by a driver and guard.

Jimm - I totally agree with your sentiments - but Philipe earlier, in response to my post on this, stated clearly that it was not a positioning turn. The way you are writing, you (like me) are clearly assuming it is.
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Who uses the Cambrian? ATW gave the following footfall figures to the Line Liaison Committee meeting in July for 14/15 pre the extra trains.
Aberystwyth 340K , Borth 60K, Dovey Juntion 2K, Machylleth 125K, Caersws 50K, Newtown 130K and Welshpool 135K. In addition theirs through passengers to the Cambrian Coast though the number was not given. Pre extra service use seems to have been just under the one million year mark.

The eastern end between Welshpool and Shrewsbury is twice as busy as between Borth and Aberystwyth. The primary flow is eastbound, ticket sale at Newtown are 80% eastbound/20% westbound. trains progressively get quieter the further west they travel. The through traffic to the coast line has huge seasonal variation. Both Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion are characterised by having two thirds of their rail traffic being cross border to England. As a general rule of thumb 50% get off on arrival at Shrewsbury the bulk going into the town itself plus people changing for the North West/South West and other parts of Wales (Cardiff is a small market). London and the SE account for around a third of the Cambrian passengers going beyond Shrewsbury with destinations in the West Midlands accounting for the rest.

Whilst theirs a noticeable Mach/Borth to Aber local market its a lot smaller than demand for travel to England. There's also a two way flow between Newtown-Welshpool. Commuting at the eastern end has been limited by the old tt with arrivals into Shrewsbury at 0711 and then not till 0925, now the gap is filled by the 0630 from Aber and the market should develop.

Gareth - that looks like an excellent summary, thank you. I assume there is some local traffic too (school/students/shopping/some working commuters) to places on the coast, like Towyn, Barmouth and Portmadoc?
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With due respect to Iron Duke who only joined the Forum in June, he would possibly be unaware of the background to events leading up to the current Timetable which is the reason, I pointed the poster to the appropriate but rather lengthy thread. Welcome to the Forum and discussion, Iron Duke.

Thank you, Philipe.
Indeed, I have begun an attack on that thread, but as you note, and Jimm re-inforces, it is rather long

 

[Gareth Marston]

I might ask "formally" how the HoW extras are doing - through a contact.

Just a bit of interest and history personally ...any news on the refurb of Pantyffynon station would be welcomed)

Maybe we should ask Greenback to take a ride - for a small fare consideration !

I've asked a committee member of HOWLTA by e mail will post any non confidential reply I get.
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Gareth - that looks like an excellent summary, thank you. I assume there is some local traffic too (school/students/shopping/some working commuters) to places on the coast, like Towyn, Barmouth and Portmadoc?
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The coasts largest single group of users is the high school traffic into Harlech and Tywyn, though falling school rolls mean it's not as big as it use to be. A lot of holidaymakers use the line for day trips in the summer months from the many camp sites found nearby. The local all year round traffic is not that big. Pwllheli and Porthmadog don't spit out that much footfall as they don't have the students and the primary direction of travel is north to Bangor not south.

 

[Greenback]

I am going to try and find out how the early service from Llandovery is doing. I have a couple of contacts who might know a lot more than me!

 

[berneyarms]

I think that the matters of interest on the HOWL are:

- What are the loadings on the 06:42 Llandovery-Swansea, being a brand new service, like?
- Has the advancing of the early service into Shrewsbury by 30 minutes had a negative impact on loadings?
- Has the addition of the 10:14 arrival into Shrewsbury had a positive effect on loadings?
- Have the extended waits at crossing points on some trains (some have waits of up to 25 minutes) been a disincentive to passengers from using the service?

 

[Greenback]

I should be able to find something out about the first and last points!

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think that the matters of interest on the HOWL are:

- What are the loadings on the 06:42 Llandovery-Swansea, being a brand new service, like?
- Has the advancing of the early service into Shrewsbury by 30 minutes had a negative impact on loadings?
- Has the addition of the 10:14 arrival into Shrewsbury had a positive effect on loadings?
- Have the extended waits at crossing points on some trains (some have waits of up to 25 minutes) been a disincentive to passengers from using the service?

All good questions, except I think qn 2 should be more neutral.

eg what have been the results of advancing of the early service into Shrewsbury by 30 minutes?

It's surely peeved a lot of folk - reports indicate that - who now have to hang around in Shrewsbury before studies or work (or use another form of transport) but equally, it allows an earlier start to the day for some, be that in Shrewsbury or for onward travel.

The morning service to Swansea has surely improved the attractiveness of the HoW- but with two relatively well-timed morning services, the Achilles heel surely is the lack of return options, most particularly the lack of a return ex Swansea in the 16.00 - 16.45 slot.

Having to wait until 18.21 means even for those living in Ammanford, the earliest arrival at home is c 19.20. For dwellers in Llandovery, it's more like 20.00. That has to be a turn off for many whose day in Swansea finishes around 16.00. :cry:

 

[craigybagel]

There don't seem to be any members of the Forum who reside in, or are in contact with events on the Heart of Wales line unfortunately. There are a number of Yahoo Groups who seem to know about everything that is happening throughout Wales but seem focused almost exclusively on Freight locomotives.

You do have a guard who works the line though, or at least half of it

I was in UK briefly in early June and made a trip on the line from Shrewsbury to Llandeilo on the 0900 on June 6th. However, this being a Saturday when the tt is exactly the same as previously, it wasn't the best day to make any judgements. Loading seemed to hover round the 25/35 mark, nothing exceptional. I had a chat with the crew and the staff at Llandod (can't remember how I had time to do so.....guess we must have been running early) all of whom reckoned they hadn't seen much difference yet though it WAS early days somewhat cynically adding "wait til october when the locals can travel free then we'll see the difference!" The Llandod staff member did seriously say though that there was a negative side for locals coming into Llandod in the morning compared to the old tt which I didn't quite get. Incidentally unit was 150217.

The 0900 used to carry a large amount of shoppers and the like to Llandrindrod, where they had 90 minutes before their train home which worked out quite conveniently. Now they only have 20 minutes that market has almost entirely been killed off, except for on Saturdays.

I imagine the 06.24 is really a positioning move up to Mach, isn't it? I mean, I never imagined many passengers originate from Shrewsbury, or the intermediate stations up to Mach, for Aberystwyth. Certainly not at that time in the morning.

Given that they have to taxi traincrew up from Machynlleth every morning to work it, one assumes it's not just a positioning move.

 

[PHILIPE]

You do have a guard who works the line though, or at least half of it



The 0900 used to carry a large amount of shoppers and the like to Llandrindrod, where they had 90 minutes before their train home which worked out quite conveniently. Now they only have 20 minutes that market has almost entirely been killed off, except for on Saturdays.



Given that they have to taxi traincrew up from Machynlleth every morning to work it, one assumes it's not just a positioning move.

Definitely not a positioning move. Machynlleth crew have to be taxied up as only they and Pwllheli work ETRMS routes.

 

[craigybagel]

Definitely not a positioning move. Machynlleth crew have to be taxied up as only they and Pwllheli work ETRMS routes.

Indeed. I'm sure if it was just a positioning move they'd shuffle things round and have an extra set overnight in machy instead. You don't run a train in service even though it requires a lengthy taxi for train crew without a good reason.

 

[berneyarms]

Indeed. I'm sure if it was just a positioning move they'd shuffle things round and have an extra set overnight in machy instead. You don't run a train in service even though it requires a lengthy taxi for train crew without a good reason.

I suspect we might get some idea once the schools and universities return in September of what sort of patronage this service may get.

 

[jimm]

Definitely not a positioning move. Machynlleth crew have to be taxied up as only they and Pwllheli work ETRMS routes.

Indeed. I'm sure if it was just a positioning move they'd shuffle things round and have an extra set overnight in machy instead. You don't run a train in service even though it requires a lengthy taxi for train crew without a good reason.

That rather depends on how one defines positioning move, doesn't it? The fact is that the position the set in question is in overnight - at Shrewsbury - is not the position it needs to be in to work the 08.30 from Aberystwyth, which is surely the key reason the 06.25 exists, though as a spin-off it has its uses to passengers at certain stages of its journey west, such as Welshpool-Newtown if people have an early start at work, and as a commuter/college service on the last leg into Aberystwyth. It certainly does not exist to meet some overwhelming demand for rail travel west out of Shrewsbury at that time of the day.

There are plenty of examples of similar workings all over the country, especially early in the morning, where trains are officially in passenger service but travel a fair few miles before they have that many people on board, simply because of the position of overnight stabling points. Start the 06.25 at Machynlleth at 07.45 instead and you would probably need to find another set to cover what the 158 is doing the previous evening before reaching Shrewsbury, which is probably easier said than done with a fleet that is stretched thin to begin with.

What is the crew being taxied up from Mach meant to prove? ATW chose not to train drivers at Shrewsbury on ERTMS working, so they have no option.

Other TOCs use taxis to move crews similar distances. FGW stables three HSTs at Worcester overnight and another at Hereford, but doesn't have a drivers' depot at Worcester, so taxis to and from Bristol or Oxford are the order of the day.

And I can assure you that the 04.50 Hereford to Paddington is not run due to overwhelming demand from Herefordshire at that time of day, indeed the loadings on that service and the 05.11 from Worcester until you get to the vicinity of Moreton-in-Marsh and stations to its east are usually distinctly underwhelming, which will also be the case on the 06.25 as it pulls out of Shrewsbury for years to come.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 0625 Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth is there due to political pressure for assumed demand to travel to Aberystwyth pre 0900 from east of Machynlleth.
The stock off the 1738 from Pwllheli runs up to Shrewsbury attached to the 1930 from Aberystwyth to balance the number of units in/out the Cambrian up. The 1930 never needs reinforcing from 2 car so that's 60 odd mile of running, throw in the taxi run and then carrying virtually nothing east of Mach.

Its an expensive way of finding out what we already knew. It would be better off starting from Machynlleth as there is a market for travel into Aber at that time of day and coast conecting passengers.

 

[PHILIPE]

This is to provide one of the FOUR ADDITIONAL SERVICES sponsored by the Welsh Government. They have had to be fitted in when UNITS ARE AVAILABLE. If a traincrew have to travel by taxi, so be it. ETRMS knowledge has been confined to a restricted number of Depots and Shrewsbury Drivers did not work to Aberystwyth immediately before the introduction of ETRMS. This is NOT a positioning move but a service to meet the Welsh Governments increased service requirements, whether it is well loaded or not..

 

[swcovas]

Just a bit of interest and history personally ...any news on the refurb of Pantyffynon station would be welcomed)

Passed through in June. Lot of work been done since my previous visit in Feb but still part covered in scaffolding and tarpaulin. It is happening though.
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The 0900 used to carry a large amount of shoppers and the like to Llandrindrod, where they had 90 minutes before their train home which worked out quite conveniently. Now they only have 20 minutes that market has almost entirely been killed off, except for on Saturdays.

Thank you. Yes, that was the point raised by the staff at Llandod.

 

[berneyarms]

The 0625 Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth is there due to political pressure for assumed demand to travel to Aberystwyth pre 0900 from east of Machynlleth.
The stock off the 1738 from Pwllheli runs up to Shrewsbury attached to the 1930 from Aberystwyth to balance the number of units in/out the Cambrian up. The 1930 never needs reinforcing from 2 car so that's 60 odd mile of running, throw in the taxi run and then carrying virtually nothing east of Mach.

Its an expensive way of finding out what we already knew. It would be better off starting from Machynlleth as there is a market for travel into Aber at that time of day and coast conecting passengers.

This is to provide one of the FOUR ADDITIONAL SERVICES sponsored by the Welsh Government. They have had to be fitted in when UNITS ARE AVAILABLE. If a traincrew have to travel by taxi, so be it. ETRMS knowledge has been confined to a restricted number of Depots and Shrewsbury Drivers did not work to Aberystwyth immediately before the introduction of ETRMS. This is NOT a positioning move but a service to meet the Welsh Governments increased service requirements, whether it is well loaded or not..

Time will tell re the first working out of Shrewsbury - I'll resurrect this thread in December and you can update us on how the early morning service has done Gareth, once the university and schools are back. Given that the timetable started pretty much at the end of term, we can't really give a firm verdict either way right now.

But in terms of the current timetable, what changes would you make Gareth?

I can guess two - terminate the 17:46 ex-Pwllheli at Machynlleth, and start the 06:25 ex-Shrewsbury at Machynlleth.

Incidentally - by doing that you would not need to rob the maintenance set to do the run to/from Barmouth in the mornings.

And what else?

Would you prefer a 16:30 out of Aberystwyth to the 18:30? Or would you prefer to see the 17:30 strengthened?

Similarly would you like to see a 16:30 out of Shrewsbury?

Obviously these would all depend on sets being in the right place, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Time will tell re the first working out of Shrewsbury - I'll resurrect this thread in December and you can update us on how the early morning service has done Gareth, once the university and schools are back. Given that the timetable started pretty much at the end of term, we can't really give a firm verdict either way right now.

But in terms of the current timetable, what changes would you make Gareth?

I can guess two - terminate the 17:46 ex-Pwllheli at Machynlleth, and start the 06:25 ex-Shrewsbury at Machynlleth.

Incidentally - by doing that you would not need to rob the maintenance set to do the run to/from Barmouth in the mornings.

And what else?

Would you prefer a 16:30 out of Aberystwyth to the 18:30? Or would you prefer to see the 17:30 strengthened?

Similarly would you like to see a 16:30 out of Shrewsbury?

Obviously these would all depend on sets being in the right place, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

There's absolutely no schools traffic on offer at that time of day if someone from Shrewsbury wanted to go to High School in say Newtown they'd get the 0624 ex New St and even then it gets to Newtown @ 0805 very early. The FE campus in Newtown is right on the far side a good 25 minute walk from the station and anyway there's a bus laid on from Welshpool. Caersws folk have the choice of Llanidloes or Newtown anyway can't see anyone desperate enough to go to High School in Mach with an arrival time of 0745 for a 0900 start.

As for Aber uni, just how many students are going to commute an hour plus every day? And thats assuming they need to be on campus every day for pre 0900 which is not always the case. I've heard of some 3rd years going to Borth and even know a handful of people that have done Aber as mature students and driven but there handfuls at best. Welshpool is as close to Wolverhampton as Aber and Chester Uni has a campus in Shrewsbury.

As to sets the obvious answer has always been a sensible look at the North Wales Coast tt. Esp now VT is running at 2 hrly intervals in the off peak, do we really need ATW services tail chasing the VT trains so there can be 3 Tph off peak between the Junction and Chester?

The lightly loaded WAG 2i know it's a treat running non stop from Shrewsbury to Newport with a dozen seats to yourself but.....

 

[berneyarms]

That's fair enough, but any chance you could elaborate on what you would like instead of what is in place in the new timetable.

 

[PHILIPE]

That's fair enough, but any chance you could elaborate on what you would like instead of what is in place in the new timetable.

Remember that you cannot reduce the number of trains or it would defeat the whole exercise of increasing the number of trains. The 06 24 ex Shrewsbury runs virtually in lieu of an 08 07 Machynlleth to Aberystwyth which was it's first work of the day so it starts back from Shrewsbury to meet the commitment of additional trains whilst unit available. The Maintenance set has to go to Barmouth due to ATW quietly trying to drop the 07 47 ex Wrexham and, in other words, source an additional 06 30 ex Aberystwyth to join at Shrewsbury in lieu. However, they got caught out. This had it's own thread.

 

[berneyarms]

Remember that you cannot reduce the number of trains or it would defeat the whole exercise of increasing the number of trains. The 06 24 ex Shrewsbury runs virtually in lieu of an 08 07 Machynlleth to Aberystwyth which was it's first work of the day so it starts back from Shrewsbury to meet the commitment of additional trains whilst unit available. The Maintenance set has to go to Barmouth due to ATW quietly trying to drop the 07 47 ex Wrexham and, in other words, source an additional 06 30 ex Aberystwyth to join at Shrewsbury in lieu. However, they got caught out. This had it's own thread.

I know that - I'm really just trying to find out what local people are feeling, because in various posts Gareth has expressed some dissatisfaction with the new service, but at the same time has not actually said what he would prefer.

At the same time, running a train for the sake of running a train is not always the best strategy. Of course, if the 06:24 didn't run, and started from Machynlleth (and the 19:30 ex-Aberystwyth was a 2 piece) the maintenance set would not be required.

But I do take the view that you need to wait and see over a long period to assess travel patterns.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think my fear is that because the tt is (lack of) resource led it's not hitting the right areas to maximise the traffic potential this in turn leads to it being vulnerable to "review". The scenario where someone grizzles you told us there was much demand for extra trains but it's not grown like you told us is very real.
The 0624 from Salop to Mach and the 2030 from Salop are not going to generate that many new users. The 0630 from Aber to Shrewsbury is right in the sweet spot but will a lack of a 1630 back hold it back? I'd trade the 0624 & 2030 for a 1630 from Salop any day.

The main weaknesses in the Cambrian tt pre May were,
Poor commuting opportunities into Shrewsbury which are only partially resolved.
Lack of connections between coastline and Aberystwyth again only partially resolved.
The two hour gaps were perceived as too infrequent, we still have them!

If it hadn't been for having to go beyond Salop in a fixed hourly slot to BHM We could have tried trains every 90 or so minutes in frequency. We could have tried a shuttle between Newtown and a Shrewsbury to test the waters or run hourly to Mach with trains then alternating between Aber and Pwllheli, both of which are plus one unit options.

 

[Llanigraham]

Tomorrow I'm catching the 1013 off Caersws to Harlech.
I shall try to make a note of the rough loadings, although I suspect the coast loadings may be screwed by the Harlech Show being on.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No one from HOWLTA are replying to their emails.
My friend from Aber says he's using the 0830 from Aber a lot and is regularly see 10 to 15 people at Dovey Junction waiting to get the 0624 from New St to Aber. The 0637 from Pwllheli is the connecting train.

 

[Llanigraham]

Tomorrow I'm catching the 1013 off Caersws to Harlech.
I shall try to make a note of the rough loadings, although I suspect the coast loadings may be screwed by the Harlech Show being on.

Most impressed today.
1013 off Caersws was quite full and 23 got on and none off. 4 cars.
2 cars from Mach and it was almost full. Impressed they had 2 conductors doing tickets so no one was getting a free ride!
Aberdovey, more on than off.
Tywyn, as Aberdovey and now people were standing. 35 were waiting for the Mach train which looked quite full.
Barmouth, more off buts lots on, but all had seats.

I caught the 1629 off Harlech on the way back and it was full all the way to Mach, where we had to change platforms for the Brum train which was very full as we left. A few people were moaning that it really needs to be a 4 car unit, which is probably true in the summer.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

23 on at Caersws is decent business. Good to see / hear it.

Anecdotally - am advised the holiday business generally has been good this year - with some difficulties I am told in finding last min hotel accommodation at some of the coast resorts north of Machynlleth.

 

[Gareth Marston]

23 on at Caersws is decent business. Good to see / hear it.

Anecdotally - am advised the holiday business generally has been good this year - with some difficulties I am told in finding last min hotel accommodation at some of the coast resorts north of Machynlleth.

Yes Ive had the at feedback too.
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Most impressed today.
1013 off Caersws was quite full and 23 got on and none off. 4 cars.
2 cars from Mach and it was almost full. Impressed they had 2 conductors doing tickets so no one was getting a free ride!
Aberdovey, more on than off.
Tywyn, as Aberdovey and now people were standing. 35 were waiting for the Mach train which looked quite full.
Barmouth, more off buts lots on, but all had seats.

I caught the 1629 off Harlech on the way back and it was full all the way to Mach, where we had to change platforms for the Brum train which was very full as we left. A few people were moaning that it really needs to be a 4 car unit, which is probably true in the summer.

The 1537 ex Pwllheli on & 1730ex Abr on what should be the quietest day of the week- Wednesday see previous posts.