Extra Cambrian and Heart of Wales servies -your experiences

[30907]

As things stand there is no obvious way to resource a 16.30 SHR-AYW.

To resource a 16.30 ex Aber I can see two options.
(1) the unit off maintenance at MCH - risky.
(2) the coast portion that attaches to the 15.30 Up - in the same way that the 18.30 is formed - but would that cause problems either from SHR or on the return from International?

Apologies if this is a red herring, and I'm sure it has been discussed before, but after a visit to the line on Monday I wondered whether a better timetable - until the extra units appear - would be based around alternating Coast and Aber trains, with some strengthening using the "extra" units (OK marginal time workings)?

The obvious difficulties are, I think
(1) you lose a 1730 departure from Aber because the Coast trains can't easily be altered
(2) the year round loadings are higher from Aber than the Coast.

No doubt the RUG people know of more disadvantages.

 

[jimm]

Its a portion that splits off the 1909 Birmingham International to Chester but they don't advertise it as such. Same as the 1830 which is a portion off the 1709 Birmingham International to Holyhead.
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Any ideas on the 'logic" behind this nonsense? Which has been programmed into the journey planners to show it as 17.43 Euston, 18.53/19.04 at Birmingham International, 20.19/20.30 at Shrewsbury...

Do they just want to keep people bound for Wales off the 17.43 to make way for West Midlands businessmen?

 

[berneyarms]

Any ideas on the 'logic" behind this nonsense? Which has been programmed into the journey planners to show it as 17.43 Euston, 18.53/19.04 at Birmingham International, 20.19/20.30 at Shrewsbury...

Do they just want to keep people bound for Wales off the 17.43 to make way for West Midlands businessmen?

It's probably just an error - not deliberate.

ATW timetables have had these problems in the past, particularly when it comes to sets dividing/joining.

 

[jimm]

It's probably just an error - not deliberate.

ATW timetables have had these problems in the past, particularly when it comes to sets dividing/joining.

Bit is it? No indication whatever of a connection on the timetable pdf and a set split at Shrewsbury the same as others that they seem to have managed to get correctly programmed into the journey planners at other times of the day. Seems a bit too much of a coincidence.

 

[headshot119]

Bit is it? No indication whatever of a connection on the timetable pdf and a set split at Shrewsbury the same as others that they seem to have managed to get correctly programmed into the journey planners at other times of the day. Seems a bit too much of a coincidence.

I actually caught the 20:24 Shrewsbury to Chester (Which is the 19:04 ex Birmingham International) last night, and also on previous occasions so perhaps I can give some insight.

Last night:

Platform Information Screen says " 1st Chester & EMPTY TO DEPOT" front two coaches only for Gobowen, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham General and Chester. Rear two coaches only for EMPTY TO DEPOT This train is formed of two coaches.

"2nd Aberystwyth"

What actually happened was the train arrived on platform 3 as a four car, front two went to Chester, rear two went to Aberystwyth.

However on a previous occasion the rear set has formed the 20:32 to Crewe and the 20:22 arrival from Aberystwyth has formed the 20:30 to Aberystwyth.


Perhaps they have shown them deliberately as separate trains as they regularly swap things round to get sets in different places?

 

[berneyarms]

Bit is it? No indication whatever of a connection on the timetable pdf and a set split at Shrewsbury the same as others that they seem to have managed to get correctly programmed into the journey planners at other times of the day. Seems a bit too much of a coincidence.

I really wouldn't read anymore into it.

As I said probably more of an oversight than anything else.

Each of the extra four new trains in either direction between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth is shown as only operating on that section in the timetable, while in fact two do operate to/from Birmingham International in both directions.

Perhaps the timetables were done in a rush, I don't know, but I very much doubt it was deliberate misinformation as you seem to be suggesting. Long experience tells me that these sort of things tend to be oversights.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I actually caught the 20:24 Shrewsbury to Chester (Which is the 19:04 ex Birmingham International) last night, and also on previous occasions so perhaps I can give some insight.

Last night:

Platform Information Screen says " 1st Chester & EMPTY TO DEPOT" front two coaches only for Gobowen, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham General and Chester. Rear two coaches only for EMPTY TO DEPOT This train is formed of two coaches.

"2nd Aberystwyth"

What actually happened was the train arrived on platform 3 as a four car, front two went to Chester, rear two went to Aberystwyth.

However on a previous occasion the rear set has formed the 20:32 to Crewe and the 20:22 arrival from Aberystwyth has formed the 20:30 to Aberystwyth.


Perhaps they have shown them deliberately as separate trains as they regularly swap things round to get sets in different places?

It shows as empty to depot when it splits off, first Ive heard of them doing a unit swap with the 1830 from Aberystwyth- that usually then goes on to Crewe.

 

[PHILIPE]

It shows as empty to depot when it splits off, first Ive heard of them doing a unit swap with the 1830 from Aberystwyth- that usually then goes on to Crewe.

Probably due to a Maintenance Requirement.

 

[70014IronDuke]

From my own observations and from living in the area, I would say that it is a big mix.

There seems to be a lot of women with children travelling, apparently (from overheard conversations) to caravans on the coast whilst their husbands are still at work, and the same groups just on a day out from the West Mids. Borth, Aberdovey and Barmouth seem to be popular destinations, but a surprising number were using the request stops, and confidently, so they had obviously done it before.

There also seem to be a growing number just "using the train", especially as it is being pushed as a scenic and easy way to see the coast instead of using the car. And to be honest, it might be an A road but it isn't a good one!

I'll be intrigued to read the station usage estimates for the past financial year (which of course, will not include the past summer).

It has been, of course, the 'winter' TT since September 13 - but seeing the apparent interest in the line, is there a case for extending the summer TT to include all of September, so that Sunday sees three trains until October? People don't stop playing golf, etc, on September 6, do they?

One train e/w per Sunday as per the winter TT is a bit of a turnoff when it comes to attracting passengers at the weekend, I'd have thought.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'll be intrigued to read the station usage estimates for the past financial year (which of course, will not include the past summer).

It has been, of course, the 'winter' TT since September 13 - but seeing the apparent interest in the line, is there a case for extending the summer TT to include all of September, so that Sunday sees three trains until October? People don't stop playing golf, etc, on September 6, do they?

One train e/w per Sunday as per the winter TT is a bit of a turnoff when it comes to attracting passengers at the weekend, I'd have thought.

from http://sarpa.info/news.html

Usage on the Cambrian Mainline approaches the million mark.
ATW gave figures to the Line Liaison Committee at their July meeting that indicated that usage in 2014/2015 was on average 8% up on the preceding year. It was also confirmed that Welshpool is now the busiest intermediate station on the Cambrian Mainline. The percentage increases quoted give the following station footfalls rounded to the nearest ‘000.
Aberystwyth 340,000 = c930 passengers per day
Borth 54,000 = c150 passengers per day
Dyfi Junction 2,000 = c6 passengers per day
Machynlleth 125,000 = c340 passengers per day
Caersws 49,000 = c135 passengers per day
Newtown 131,000 = c360 passengers per day
Welshpool 135,000 = c370 passengers per day

This combined with the through traffic to the coast line confirms that usage is now approaching the one million per annum mark. Back when the Line Liaison Committee was in communication with the Welsh Government regarding the need for extra services SARPA provided research which showed that on 5 English rural lines where the service frequency had been doubled already there had been an average 58% increase in usage in the three years after the new services started. We don’t know what a 50% increase in trains will achieve especially as some of the times of the extra trains are not fitted around times of greatest demand. However a 20% increase would see footfall for the stations alone without connecting passengers on our line exceed a million per annum.

The Borders railway with its half hourly service has a target of 675K!

 

[70014IronDuke]

from http://sarpa.info/news.html

Interesting. WRT the Sunday service, I was, of course, primarily referring to the northern line to Pwhelli.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting. WRT the Sunday service, I was, of course, primarily referring to the northern line to Pwhelli.

Welsh Tourist industry has had a good year by all accounts so this will reflect through on coast loading's. Got the 1330 from Aberystwyth back to Newtown on Friday, the unit was taken off at Machynlleth with a door fault. Passengers all moved into the unit that came off coast 1137 ex Pwlhelli. c 40 standing leaving Mach as if anything the coast portion was busier including party of 40 schoolchildren from Telford. Coast loadings bar schools traffic usually nose dives around now.

 

[swcovas]

I assume that members (Gareth, Chief Planner and Greenback, I think) have had no response from enquiries they made of the HOWL Forum over a month ago regarding usage on the Heart of Wales line. That's a shame and sadly reflects my own experience when making enquiries of that organisation.

 

[Greenback]

You're correct. I didn't get a response. The contact I used to have appears to no longer be involved.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I assume that members (Gareth, Chief Planner and Greenback, I think) have had no response from enquiries they made of the HOWL Forum over a month ago regarding usage on the Heart of Wales line. That's a shame and sadly reflects my own experience when making enquiries of that organisation.

I've not really pushed but likewise a simple question elicited no response at all from two sources.

ATW told the joint coast and Cambrian mainline line liaison committee mtg in Machynlleth on the 18th that passenger numbers were

from http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RAILMINUTESJOINTSEPT2015final.pdf

There is an increase in usage of the Cambrian Lines and in due course the
actual increases can be calculated.

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Secretary of the line liaison committee is quoted in this weeks local rag the county times as claiming a 20% increase in usage. Detail lacking in piece as to whether whole of Cambrian or just mainline.

 

[DelW]

I assume that members (Gareth, Chief Planner and Greenback, I think) have had no response from enquiries they made of the HOWL Forum over a month ago regarding usage on the Heart of Wales line. That's a shame and sadly reflects my own experience when making enquiries of that organisation.

I'm unsure how the two organisations are related, but HOWLTA (Heart of Wales Line Travellers' Association) sent out a mailing a month or so ago including an urgent appeal for new volunteers, as several committee members (including the chairman IIRC) were having to step down for various reasons. There was concern expressed that they might not be able to continue unless replacements could be found quickly.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm unsure how the two organisations are related, but HOWLTA (Heart of Wales Line Travellers' Association) sent out a mailing a month or so ago including an urgent appeal for new volunteers, as several committee members (including the chairman IIRC) were having to step down for various reasons. There was concern expressed that they might not be able to continue unless replacements could be found quickly.

The forum is the HOW equivalent of the Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Line Liaison Committee. local councillors, MPs, AMs rail officers, local authorities with a seat for local RUG. HOWLTA are the RUG but as with the Cambrian a number of rug members wear other hats also.

SARPA is having its AGM in Machynlleth Saturday 1100 in the White Lion, Ben Davies and Michael Vaughan from ATW in attendance. I believe SARPAs committee is standing again on block.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Proposals for a new £24m Dyfi Bridge have been made public.

The road bridge has been designed to improve capacity and resilience on the A487, improving safety and journey times on the road - which is an important link between north and south Wales.

As part of the two-year 2014 budget agreement with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, the Welsh Government is spending £6m in 2016-17 to secure the early construction of the new Dyfi Bridge.

The proposed scheme consists of a new viaduct which will cross the River Dyfi upstream of the existing bridge near Machynlleth. The current crossing is narrow and regularly closed by floods or damage by vehicles, causing long diversion routes and disruption.

Wales Transport Minister Edwina Hart said: "The A487 is an important part of the Welsh north-south and east-west trunk road network. However the current Dyfi Bridge creates a pinch-point on this important road. This new bridge will greatly improve safety, journey times and network resilience, while enabling the historic Grade II listed original bridge to remain in place."

Discuss - in terms of traffic levels - and how the line is often shut - every winter - due to flooding at "Black Bridge" - which would be a better spend in my opinion.

 

[Llanigraham]

Proposals for a new £24m Dyfi Bridge have been made public.

The road bridge has been designed to improve capacity and resilience on the A487, improving safety and journey times on the road - which is an important link between north and south Wales.

As part of the two-year 2014 budget agreement with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, the Welsh Government is spending £6m in 2016-17 to secure the early construction of the new Dyfi Bridge.

The proposed scheme consists of a new viaduct which will cross the River Dyfi upstream of the existing bridge near Machynlleth. The current crossing is narrow and regularly closed by floods or damage by vehicles, causing long diversion routes and disruption.

Wales Transport Minister Edwina Hart said: "The A487 is an important part of the Welsh north-south and east-west trunk road network. However the current Dyfi Bridge creates a pinch-point on this important road. This new bridge will greatly improve safety, journey times and network resilience, while enabling the historic Grade II listed original bridge to remain in place."

Discuss - in terms of traffic levels - and how the line is often shut - every winter - due to flooding at "Black Bridge" - which would be a better spend in my opinion.

But spending money on Black Bridge would not help those that live in areas NOT covered by rail transport getting to Machy!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Proposals for a new £24m Dyfi Bridge have been made public.

The road bridge has been designed to improve capacity and resilience on the A487, improving safety and journey times on the road - which is an important link between north and south Wales.

As part of the two-year 2014 budget agreement with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, the Welsh Government is spending £6m in 2016-17 to secure the early construction of the new Dyfi Bridge.

The proposed scheme consists of a new viaduct which will cross the River Dyfi upstream of the existing bridge near Machynlleth. The current crossing is narrow and regularly closed by floods or damage by vehicles, causing long diversion routes and disruption.

Wales Transport Minister Edwina Hart said: "The A487 is an important part of the Welsh north-south and east-west trunk road network. However the current Dyfi Bridge creates a pinch-point on this important road. This new bridge will greatly improve safety, journey times and network resilience, while enabling the historic Grade II listed original bridge to remain in place."

Discuss - in terms of traffic levels - and how the line is often shut - every winter - due to flooding at "Black Bridge" - which would be a better spend in my opinion.

Having lived 30 miles from the Dyfi Bridge for 35 years it has never effected me if it's been closed but the Black Bridge has on several occasions.

If you look at the road traffic counts the DFT has produced and CBT have as an interactive map of on their website and compare with the Cambrian's usage rail is actually the primary mode of travel further up the Dyfi Valley from Cemmaes Road over the watershed to Carno.
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But spending money on Black Bridge would not help those that live in areas NOT covered by rail transport getting to Machy!

More folk come over the top via Talerddig by rail than by road.

 

[Llanigraham]

Possibly Gareth, but I said what about those that do NOT live in the areas covered by rail, such as Dolgellau, Corris or Ceinwis. When the Dovey Bridge is closed they have a long diversion.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Possibly Gareth, but I said what about those that do NOT live in the areas covered by rail, such as Dolgellau, Corris or Ceinwis. When the Dovey Bridge is closed they have a long diversion.

When the black bridge is closed it effects the much larger populations in Aberystwyth, Newtown and Welshpool.
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I went to the SARPA AGM yesterday, ATW would not give any figures on the usage for the new service or deny the Line Liaison Committees Secretary's claim of a 20% increase! they said as it was a Welsh Government project it was up to them to release figures!

They were however pleased with the numbers interchanging at Dovey Junction and mentioned the 0630 and 1230 departures from Aberystwyth as being popular. SARPA members commented that the 0630 was picking up well Caersws eastwards. One SARPA member estimated that it was carrying around 50 educational commuters into Shrewsbury.

Conductors have been instructed that if anyone for Borth is riding on the 1800 Machynlleth to Aberysytwyth that does not stop there they can have a free ride into Aberystwyth and back, a common sense arrangement that was welcomed.
ATW also quoted a December completion date for the DDA bridge at Machynlleth but no one I spoke to believed it given the lack of any structure appearing at Machynlleth.

 

[berneyarms]

For those of us perhaps not quite that familiar with the area, where is the Black Bridge located?

 

[jimm]

ATW also quoted a December completion date for the DDA bridge at Machynlleth but no one I spoke to believed it given the lack of any structure appearing at Machynlleth.

If the contractors are expected imminently, then it seems possible. A new footbridge at Kingham station - admittedly lacking the lifts at this stage, which need funding from another pot of money - went from foundation work to installation of the structure in about six weeks in August and September.

 

[Gareth Marston]

For those of us perhaps not quite that familiar with the area, where is the Black Bridge located?

About a mile and a half east of Machynlleth station on a tributary of the River Dyfi.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the contractors are expected imminently, then it seems possible. A new footbridge at Kingham station - admittedly lacking the lifts at this stage, which need funding from another pot of money - went from foundation work to installation of the structure in about six weeks in August and September.

Balfour Beatty have been on site for several months, whoever dreamt the project up didn't realise that Machynlleth station is built on rubble from Talerddig cutting to keep it out the floodplain of the Dyfi and there having problems constructing firm footings for the lift shafts there's also a buried stream nearby.

 

[jimm]

Balfour Beatty have been on site for several months, whoever dreamt the project up didn't realise that Machynlleth station is built on rubble from Talerddig cutting to keep it out the floodplain of the Dyfi and there having problems constructing firm footings for the lift shafts there's also a buried stream nearby.

Well we shall see, though I can't see any reason why ATW would give a target date in a public forum if they weren't fairly confident of meeting it.

I wonder if they are keeping shtum about the latest passenger figures so a Welsh Government minister can triumphantly announce the increase in the run-up to the Assembly elections in May to try to bolster the Labour share of the list vote in Mid and West Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well we shall see, though I can't see any reason why ATW would give a target date in a public forum if they weren't fairly confident of meeting it.

I wonder if they are keeping shtum about the latest passenger figures so a Welsh Government minister can triumphantly announce the increase in the run-up to the Assembly elections in May to try to bolster the Labour share of the list vote in Mid and West Wales.

They got 2 list AM's for Mid and West Wales in 2011, in the constituencys on the Cambrian they were also rans.

Ceredigion

PC hold

Elin Jones (PC) 12,020 (41.34%)
Liz Evans (LD) 10,243 (35.23%)
Luke Evetts (C) 2,755 (9.48%)
Richard Boudier (Lab) 2,544 (8.75%)
Chris Simpson (Green) 1,514 (5.21%)

PC maj 1,777 (6.11%) | 3.51% swing PC to LD | Turnout 29,076 (51.03%)

Dwyfor Meirionnydd

PC hold

Dafydd Elis-Thomas (PC) 9,656 (46.55%)
Simon Baynes (C) 4,239 (20.44%)
Louise Hughes (Gwynedd) 3,225 (15.55%)
Martyn Singleton (Lab) 2,623 (12.65%)
Steve Churchman (LD) 1,000 (4.82%)

PC maj 5,417 (26.11%) | 6.99% swing PC to C | Turnout 20,743 (46.44%)

Montgomeryshire

C gain from Ind

Russell George (C) 10,026 (43.72%)
Wyn Williams (LD) 7,702 (33.58%)
Nick Colbourne (Lab) 2,609 (11.38%)
David Senior (PC) 2,596 (11.32%)

C maj 2,324 (10.13%) | 9.50% swing LD to C | Turnout 22,933 (47.11%)

 

[jimm]

They got 2 list AM's for Mid and West Wales in 2011, in the constituencys on the Cambrian they were also rans.

Ceredigion

PC hold

Elin Jones (PC) 12,020 (41.34%)
Liz Evans (LD) 10,243 (35.23%)
Luke Evetts (C) 2,755 (9.48%)
Richard Boudier (Lab) 2,544 (8.75%)
Chris Simpson (Green) 1,514 (5.21%)

PC maj 1,777 (6.11%) | 3.51% swing PC to LD | Turnout 29,076 (51.03%)

Dwyfor Meirionnydd

PC hold

Dafydd Elis-Thomas (PC) 9,656 (46.55%)
Simon Baynes (C) 4,239 (20.44%)
Louise Hughes (Gwynedd) 3,225 (15.55%)
Martyn Singleton (Lab) 2,623 (12.65%)
Steve Churchman (LD) 1,000 (4.82%)

PC maj 5,417 (26.11%) | 6.99% swing PC to C | Turnout 20,743 (46.44%)

Montgomeryshire

C gain from Ind

Russell George (C) 10,026 (43.72%)
Wyn Williams (LD) 7,702 (33.58%)
Nick Colbourne (Lab) 2,609 (11.38%)
David Senior (PC) 2,596 (11.32%)

C maj 2,324 (10.13%) | 9.50% swing LD to C | Turnout 22,933 (47.11%)

I know they didn't win any constituencies, which was the precise reason I mentioned the list vote.

After the Labour Party's travails in the general election, the share of votes UKIP picked up in Wales and the election of Mr Corbyn (who doesn't strike me as Welsh Labour's cup of tea, never mind what Labour voters may make of him), they may well be worried about losing those list seats and control of the Welsh Government, so the ability to turn around and say 'look how well your improved train service is doing (thanks to us, of course)' at some point next April could be rather attractive.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know they didn't win any constituencies, which was the precise reason I mentioned the list vote.

After the Labour Party's travails in the general election, the share of votes UKIP picked up in Wales and the election of Mr Corbyn (who doesn't strike me as Welsh Labour's cup of tea, never mind what Labour voters may make of him), they may well be worried about losing those list seats and control of the Welsh Government, so the ability to turn around and say 'look how well your improved train service is doing (thanks to us, of course)' at some point next April could be rather attractive.

Mid & West Wales covers Pemrokeshire,Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Powys. I doubt rail improvements in Northern Ceredigion and Montgomeryshire will sway many in the south west.

 

[jimm]

Mid & West Wales covers Pemrokeshire,Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Powys. I doubt rail improvements in Northern Ceredigion and Montgomeryshire will sway many in the south west.

Indeed, but if it persuades a few waverers in the communities along/near the line to stick with Labour, it could make the difference between holding on to list seats and losing them.