Extra Cambrian and Heart of Wales servies -your experiences

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed, but if it persuades a few waverers in the communities along/near the line to stick with Labour, it could make the difference between holding on to list seats and losing them.

There's a certain councillor from Barmouth who if you had no background knowledge would appear to be the driving force by his own account.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Problems have arisen in Caersws with parking since the new services, the station car park is often full up and folk have taken to parking in the village leading to complaints and Dyfed Powys Police being involved.

Latest un official figure being bandied about is that usage is up by 25% on the Cambrian mainline since May.

 

[Llanigraham]

Problems have arisen in Caersws with parking since the new services, the station car park is often full up and folk have taken to parking in the village leading to complaints and Dyfed Powys Police being involved.

Latest un official figure being bandied about is that usage is up by 25% on the Cambrian mainline since May.

Very true! At least the guy with the little motorbike has stopped using up a whole space now! I have found I have had to park outside the St John Ambulance Hall several times, and I know people have been booked for parking close to the crossing.
Rumour has it that they are looking at "reclaiming" the land that used to be the goods yard and now used by the timber frame people.

Those figures would roughly fit in with my estimate.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Very true! At least the guy with the little motorbike has stopped using up a whole space now! I have found I have had to park outside the St John Ambulance Hall several times, and I know people have been booked for parking close to the crossing.
Rumour has it that they are looking at "reclaiming" the land that used to be the goods yard and now used by the timber frame people.

Those figures would roughly fit in with my estimate.

Welsh Oak Frame want to move out the site in the centre of the village but stay in or near the village but Powys CC won't let them as the unused field they want between Llanidloes Road level crossing and the village inbetween the A470 and the railway is not in the Unitary Development Plan boundaries for development.

Powys CC also have refused to integrate the bus services with the railway meaning no one from Llanidloes or Carno way have any choice but to drive to Caersws. Indeed the Council have been a barrier to improved rail services full stop for many years.

 

[Llanigraham]

.

Powys CC also have refused to integrate the bus services with the railway meaning no one from Llanidloes or Carno way have any choice but to drive to Caersws. Indeed the Council have been a barrier to improved rail services full stop for many years.

Don't we know it!!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'd have your big pinch of salt ready folks but the line liaison Committee are claiming a 38.8% increase in usage on the Cambrian mainline and a 40% one on the coast in their follow up train survey this autumn compared to 2013.

Minutes and presentation from today's meeting already online.

http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/RAILSURVEY2015.pptx

http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/RAILJOINTMINUTESNOV2015.pdf

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd have your big pinch of salt ready folks but the line liaison Committee are claiming a 38.8% increase in usage on the Cambrian mainline and a 40% one on the coast in their follow up train survey this autumn compared to 2013.

Minutes and presentation from today's meeting already online.

http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/RAILSURVEY2015.pptx

http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/RAILJOINTMINUTESNOV2015.pdf

From the PDF: "The need for WiFi and working electric points on trains", does this imply that the power sockets on the 158s are broken, or is it that there aren't enough of them? Or is this comment referring to onward travel on other ATW services from Shrewsbury?

From the power point: "train not stopping at request stops", this could mean any of the following, which is it?

• there are no passengers requesting the stop
• passengers have requested the stop but the driver failed to stop
• additional services not serving certain request stops welcomed
• additional services not serving certain request stops not welcomed

 

[Gareth Marston]

From the PDF: "The need for WiFi and working electric points on trains", does this imply that the power sockets on the 158s are broken, or is it that there aren't enough of them? Or is this comment referring to onward travel on other ATW services from Shrewsbury?

From the power point: "train not stopping at request stops", this could mean any of the following, which is it?

• there are no passengers requesting the stop
• passengers have requested the stop but the driver failed to stop
• additional services not serving certain request stops welcomed
• additional services not serving certain request stops not welcomed

Certainly one of those presentations that throws up more questions than it answers.

Doing a heard count on one week sounds very Beeching like open to a wide set of variables. Groups like the Windermere line RUG have been doing similar but for more than 10 years at same week in year and therefore there data has more credibility due to the volume of it.

 

[craigybagel]

Not that it's likely to affect many passengers, but as of the new timetable the first down through Heart of Wales service will leave 14 minutes later from Shrewsbury at 05:56. As a result, it cuts down on the previous 25 minute wait at Knighton to cross the early service from Llandrindod

From the PDF: "The need for WiFi and working electric points on trains", does this imply that the power sockets on the 158s are broken, or is it that there aren't enough of them?

I suspect the former - they are notoriously unreliable.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not that it's likely to affect many passengers, but as of the new timetable the first down through Heart of Wales service will leave 14 minutes later from Shrewsbury at 05:56. As a result, it cuts down on the previous 25 minute wait at Knighton to cross the early service from Llandrindod



I suspect the former - they are notoriously unreliable.

Or "crap" according to my teenage daughter!

 

[Llanigraham]

The biggest problem with wi-fi is not the train equipment but the severe lack of 3g/4g in the area, and even the lack of ANY mobile connections on some parts. Until pressure is put on the Providers very little can be done.

From my conversations with the staff that run the line, I would say that the increase figures are about right, and that now the increased number of passengers is more spread out across the services, especially with the students from Aber, who seem to be catching the later services (so they can stay in bed an hour longer!)

The car parking situation at Caersws is now dire, with both the local residents and the Police complaining about it. They had an answer but it appears that has been scuppered by Powys CC.

Presumably this survey was conducted prior to the ticket machine at Caersws? If not then I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned, as it seems to be regularly out of action.

 

[PHILIPE]

Coverage is very sparse in Mid-Wales for the residents let alone the trains.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Coverage is very sparse in Mid-Wales for the residents let alone the trains.

EE reception is awful in Newtown at moment' they took over from Orange who were good locally.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The biggest problem with wi-fi is not the train equipment but the severe lack of 3g/4g in the area, and even the lack of ANY mobile connections on some parts. Until pressure is put on the Providers very little can be done.

From my conversations with the staff that run the line, I would say that the increase figures are about right, and that now the increased number of passengers is more spread out across the services, especially with the students from Aber, who seem to be catching the later services (so they can stay in bed an hour longer!)

The car parking situation at Caersws is now dire, with both the local residents and the Police complaining about it. They had an answer but it appears that has been scuppered by Powys CC.

Presumably this survey was conducted prior to the ticket machine at Caersws? If not then I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned, as it seems to be regularly out of action.

I'm taking the liaison committee with a pinch of salt especially knowing how poorly attended there focus groups were.

 

[headshot119]

Coverage is very sparse in Mid-Wales for the residents let alone the trains.

EE reception is awful in Newtown at moment' they took over from Orange who were good locally.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm taking the liaison committee with a pinch of salt especially knowing how poorly attended there focus groups were.

They didn't take over from Orange, EE is a merger of Orange and T-Mobile.

 

[Gareth Marston]

They didn't take over from Orange, EE is a merger of Orange and T-Mobile.

Well whatever the sequence the signal is hopeless worse than when it was Orange.

 

[Parallel]

l on other ATW services from Shrewsbury?

From the power point: "train not stopping at request stops", this could mean any of the following, which is it?

• there are no passengers requesting the stop
• passengers have requested the stop but the driver failed to stop
• additional services not serving certain request stops welcomed
• additional services not serving certain request stops not welcomed

It sounds like they mean some request stops are underused. (Which I don't see as being an issue as they are request stops).

One thing about the extra evening Pwllheli extension I find odd is the omission of Talybont and Dyffryn Ardudwy as request stops. Granted, the train has to rush from passing at Tywyn to passing at Porthmadog, and all stops other than Harlech are omitted between Llanaber and Porthmadog. Is there a reason why, say, Tonfanau, Llanaber & Morfa Mawddach couldn't be omitted in favour of the busier Penrhyndeudraeth, Dyffryn Ardudwy & Talybont? Just seems odd that Llanaber is a stop on this service when the next station (Talybont) is about 10 times busier according to passenger usage figures.

 

[DelW]

A couple of weeks ago I made my annual trip to mid Wales including some trips on the HoWL. I was thinking about the time lost every time the train had to slow for a potential pick-up at a request stop, and a possible way of avoiding that occurred to me. As far as I know it's never been tried, and I wondered if that's correct and if so why not?

As even the smallest stations (yes, even Sugar Loaf) now have power supplies (and electronic departure boards), would it be possible to put a passenger-operated "please stop" button on the platform, which when operated could either be passed to the driver electronically, or more simply, light a trackside signal lamp say 1/2 mile before the platform.

Two possible snags occur to me:
1) malicious misuse - but I don't think that's likely on rural HoWL stations, and even if it happened, it's no worse than the current situation, with the train slowing until the driver can see the platform is empty
2) telling potential passengers they need to use it - I would suggest adding a message on the departure board "This train stops by request only - press stop button located at xxx", together with amending the existing request stop instructions.

Of course there would be a one-off cost in equipment, but I would think there would be a significant and continuing saving in fuel from the trains not having to slow down and re-accelerate at each request stop, as well a potentially a time saving.

So, does anyone know of this being tried anywhere? If so, does it work OK, or are there other snags I haven't spotted?

 

[craigybagel]

A couple of weeks ago I made my annual trip to mid Wales including some trips on the HoWL. I was thinking about the time lost every time the train had to slow for a potential pick-up at a request stop, and a possible way of avoiding that occurred to me. As far as I know it's never been tried, and I wondered if that's correct and if so why not?

As even the smallest stations (yes, even Sugar Loaf) now have power supplies (and electronic departure boards), would it be possible to put a passenger-operated "please stop" button on the platform, which when operated could either be passed to the driver electronically, or more simply, light a trackside signal lamp say 1/2 mile before the platform.

Two possible snags occur to me:
1) malicious misuse - but I don't think that's likely on rural HoWL stations, and even if it happened, it's no worse than the current situation, with the train slowing until the driver can see the platform is empty
2) telling potential passengers they need to use it - I would suggest adding a message on the departure board "This train stops by request only - press stop button located at xxx", together with amending the existing request stop instructions.

Of course there would be a one-off cost in equipment, but I would think there would be a significant and continuing saving in fuel from the trains not having to slow down and re-accelerate at each request stop, as well a potentially a time saving.

So, does anyone know of this being tried anywhere? If so, does it work OK, or are there other snags I haven't spotted?

I'm sure its been done in America somewhere but I can't find where at the moment. You can't really save any time with it because you have to aloow for the possibility that the train will stop at all stops (2 years I've been working the line and its never happened yet to me but you never know!). Any time saved down there at the moment is usually then spent waiting at the crossing point. You could save on diesel I suppose but I suspect given the line is always going to be a financial basket case (but hugely important to the needs of the locals down there,before people think I'm justifying closing it!) it would make for a pretty small difference.

 

[DelW]

I'm sure its been done in America somewhere but I can't find where at the moment. You can't really save any time with it because you have to aloow for the possibility that the train will stop at all stops (2 years I've been working the line and its never happened yet to me but you never know!). Any time saved down there at the moment is usually then spent waiting at the crossing point. You could save on diesel I suppose but I suspect given the line is always going to be a financial basket case (but hugely important to the needs of the locals down there,before people think I'm justifying closing it!) it would make for a pretty small difference.

I wondered what proportion of request stops actually being required the timetablers allow for, whether 100% or some lower estimate. If it is 100%, then as you say time savings wouldn't be achievable.

I did once catch an afternoon train from Sugar Loaf in mid-November, and a friend who was already on the same train commented that the crew seemed quite surprised to have to stop there.

 

[craigybagel]

I wondered what proportion of request stops actually being required the timetablers allow for, whether 100% or some lower estimate. If it is 100%, then as you say time savings wouldn't be achievable.

I did once catch an afternoon train from Sugar Loaf in mid-November, and a friend who was already on the same train commented that the crew seemed quite surprised to have to stop there.

I don't sign Sugar Loaf, my route card stops one station to the north, but when handing over to the Carmarthen guard at Llandrindod or Llanwrtyd I've only ever had to warn them about a request for Sugar Loaf once, and on that occasion he was certainly very surprised! There are other less well known quiet stops up there mind - I think I've only ever been asked for Llangynllo twice and apart from the school trains Broome is rare as well. Others, like Knucklas, its rare to not stop at.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Another snag for DelW's suggestion: platform LED displays aren't always 100% reliable and your 'please stop' button (and associated signal for the driver) isn't likely to be either. So if there's a power cut or something you just have to hope somebody on the train wants to get off so you can get on.

Personally, I think the HOWL and Cambrian coast could do with extra services, with the additional ones NOT serving the request stops. In the case of the Cambrian coast I would only propose the extras running between Newtown/Machynlleth and Porthmadog, I wouldn't send them onto Pwllheli as I'd like them kept in reserve for extension to Bangor (via Bryncir and Caernarfon, not Afon Wen) in the (much) longer term. Alternatively, given how long it seems we will have to wait for more DMUs for Wales (other than perhaps Pacers or 150/1s which we have few/no suitable routes for), perhaps the timescale for such a service would be similar to that required to get the missing rail link.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Another snag for DelW's suggestion: platform LED displays aren't always 100% reliable and your 'please stop' button (and associated signal for the driver) isn't likely to be either. So if there's a power cut or something you just have to hope somebody on the train wants to get off so you can get on.

Personally, I think the HOWL and Cambrian coast could do with extra services, with the additional ones NOT serving the request stops. In the case of the Cambrian coast I would only propose the extras running between Newtown/Machynlleth and Porthmadog, I wouldn't send them onto Pwllheli as I'd like them kept in reserve for extension to Bangor (via Bryncir and Caernarfon, not Afon Wen) in the (much) longer term. Alternatively, given how long it seems we will have to wait for more DMUs for Wales (other than perhaps Pacers or 150/1s which we have few/no suitable routes for), perhaps the timescale for such a service would be similar to that required to get the missing rail link.

I agree - there must be a case for additional Newtown - Salop in the peaks , plus summer only Mach - Barmouth - Portmadoc (and probably Crewe - Salop) - with subsidy of course

 

[D1009]

A couple of weeks ago I made my annual trip to mid Wales including some trips on the HoWL. I was thinking about the time lost every time the train had to slow for a potential pick-up at a request stop, and a possible way of avoiding that occurred to me. As far as I know it's never been tried, and I wondered if that's correct and if so why not?

As even the smallest stations (yes, even Sugar Loaf) now have power supplies (and electronic departure boards), would it be possible to put a passenger-operated "please stop" button on the platform, which when operated could either be passed to the driver electronically, or more simply, light a trackside signal lamp say 1/2 mile before the platform.

Two possible snags occur to me:
1) malicious misuse - but I don't think that's likely on rural HoWL stations, and even if it happened, it's no worse than the current situation, with the train slowing until the driver can see the platform is empty
2) telling potential passengers they need to use it - I would suggest adding a message on the departure board "This train stops by request only - press stop button located at xxx", together with amending the existing request stop instructions.

Of course there would be a one-off cost in equipment, but I would think there would be a significant and continuing saving in fuel from the trains not having to slow down and re-accelerate at each request stop, as well a potentially a time saving.

So, does anyone know of this being tried anywhere? If so, does it work OK, or are there other snags I haven't spotted?

I'm sure I've come across this somewhere in Europe, possibly Hungary. There were stop buttons on the train which give an indication to the driver and illuminate a sign on the train similar to buses here, and I'm sure there was a button at the halts which would activate a signal on the approach to the station.

Were such a system adopted on the HOWL, I'm not sure how much difference it would make to journey times given the limitations of the infrastructure on timetabling.

 

[185143]

I wondered what proportion of request stops actually being required the timetablers allow for, whether 100% or some lower estimate. If it is 100%, then as you say time savings wouldn't be achievable.

I did once catch an afternoon train from Sugar Loaf in mid-November, and a friend who was already on the same train commented that the crew seemed quite surprised to have to stop there.

I don't sign Sugar Loaf, my route card stops one station to the north, but when handing over to the Carmarthen guard at Llandrindod or Llanwrtyd I've only ever had to warn them about a request for Sugar Loaf once, and on that occasion he was certainly very surprised! There are other less well known quiet stops up there mind - I think I've only ever been asked for Llangynllo twice and apart from the school trains Broome is rare as well. Others, like Knucklas, its rare to not stop at.

I've requested both Llangynllo and Broome on the same day before! I was scratching the shacks though, not a quick task on that line!

 

[DelW]

Another snag for DelW's suggestion: platform LED displays aren't always 100% reliable and your 'please stop' button (and associated signal for the driver) isn't likely to be either. So if there's a power cut or something you just have to hope somebody on the train wants to get off so you can get on.

That's true, though I wouldn't be too confident of being able to stop a train under the current system if the station lights were off too. I think I have heard that trains won't normally stop at an unlit station because of elf'n'safety considerations, or is that just a myth?

Perhaps the system could be that the signal lamp would normally be lit, but would go out if the 'please stop' button was pressed, so during a fault condition or a power cut, the driver would drive as now, slowing to check the platform visually if s/he hadn't seen the signal lit.

I can see it's all starting to get a bit expensive in comparison with the possible benefits though, unless some way could be found to give timetabling benefits as well as fuel saving, and the crossing constraints on HoWL probably rule that out. Thanks to all for comments and info' on where the system has been used.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I agree - there must be a case for additional Newtown - Salop in the peaks , plus summer only Mach - Barmouth - Portmadoc (and probably Crewe - Salop) - with subsidy of course

The 0630 ex ABR is lightly loaded till it gets to the upper Severn valley and then loads well into Shrewsbury - which shows where the market is at that time of day. The stakeholders further west have always screamed blue murder about them not coming first, however they are the ones that have lead the major syakeholder for the upper Severn valley Powys CC has been the most apathetic of the lot meaning sensible peak extras from Salop to Newtown that didn't require infrastructure work were never considered.

I believe if we'd stayed part of CT we might have got the as the managers at the time knew the Cambrian however since the Wales and Borders franchise was created incremental got stalled and it had to be "all the way" or nothing.

 

[craigybagel]

That's true, though I wouldn't be too confident of being able to stop a train under the current system if the station lights were off too. I think I have heard that trains won't normally stop at an unlit station because of elf'n'safety considerations, or is that just a myth?

Perhaps the system could be that the signal lamp would normally be lit, but would go out if the 'please stop' button was pressed, so during a fault condition or a power cut, the driver would drive as now, slowing to check the platform visually if s/he hadn't seen the signal lit.

I can see it's all starting to get a bit expensive in comparison with the possible benefits though, unless some way could be found to give timetabling benefits as well as fuel saving, and the crossing constraints on HoWL probably rule that out. Thanks to all for comments and info' on where the system has been used.

If the station lights are broken we can still stop - we just have to remain on the platform so the light from the train illuminates it until all passengers have left the station.

Given the speed drop for request stops isn't that big on the HOWL anyway (request stops are passed at 15mph, the linespeed is never more than 60mph and as low as 45mph for some sections) it'd need to be a very cheap system to make any kind of saving worthwhile.

The 0630 ex ABR is lightly loaded till it gets to the upper Severn valley and then loads well into Shrewsbury - which shows where the market is at that time of day. The stakeholders further west have always screamed blue murder about them not coming first, however they are the ones that have lead the major syakeholder for the upper Severn valley Powys CC has been the most apathetic of the lot meaning sensible peak extras from Salop to Newtown that didn't require infrastructure work were never considered.

I believe if we'd stayed part of CT we might have got the as the managers at the time knew the Cambrian however since the Wales and Borders franchise was created incremental got stalled and it had to be "all the way" or nothing.

One big hurdle now is that the drivers have to come from Machynlleth anyway. There are ways around it (a driver is taxied from Mach to Shrewsbury every morning for the first departure from there) but it makes it more complicated to do Newtown shuttles.

I've requested both Llangynllo and Broome on the same day before! I was scratching the shacks though, not a quick task on that line!

I've had a few weird combinations for that very reason before. The best was Paul Merton and a camera crew doing Pen y Bont to Knucklas earlier this year.

 

[headshot119]

I'm sure I've come across this somewhere in Europe, possibly Hungary. There were stop buttons on the train which give an indication to the driver and illuminate a sign on the train similar to buses here, and I'm sure there was a button at the halts which would activate a signal on the approach to the station.

Were such a system adopted on the HOWL, I'm not sure how much difference it would make to journey times given the limitations of the infrastructure on timetabling.

I recently did a trip in the Czech Republic from Kutna Hora (The main station) - Kutna Hira Sedlec (Nothing more than a few paving slabs chucked on the floor). The whole thing reminded me of a cross between the Stourbridge and Looe branches.

The stop was requested exactly as you would a bus to stop.

Seemed to be quite a good system.

 

[Gareth Marston]

One big hurdle now is that the drivers have to come from Machynlleth anyway. There are ways around it (a driver is taxied from Mach to Shrewsbury every morning for the first departure from there) but it makes it more complicated to do Newtown shuttles.

SARPA's Newtown shuttle proposal involved a unit and crew starting out from Mach at around 0700 and returning there as 1830 ish off Salop with a crew swap in the day of course!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Knock on delays this afternoon/evening London Midland sat down in front of the 1409 ex INTL near Telford. Cambrian is still very vulnerable to this. Returned from Shrewsbury on 2030 left on time but sat at Fron Jnc for 10 mins.

 

[berneyarms]

Knock on delays this afternoon/evening London Midland sat down in front of the 1409 ex INTL near Telford. Cambrian is still very vulnerable to this. Returned from Shrewsbury on 2030 left on time but sat at Fron Jnc for 10 mins.

Unfortunately any single track railway with passing loops with decent service levels is susceptible to knock-on delays if one train gets delayed by any significant amount of time.

Crews may need to take their breaks as well, which also will cause problems.

The 16:09 from Birmingham International was the worst affected on the Cambrian mainline, 25 minutes late at Aberystwyth, the return working being the one that in turn delayed your train. It left Aberystwyth 17 minutes late.