Extra carriages, 180s for FGW

[Nym]

tbtc, it's the two orphaned 'centre cars' from when LM formed up 3 car units, thanks to some writeoffs previously, forming them into the middle of 150/1 or 150/2 units can make a 3 car unit. Even through the're driving cars, they can be used for this purpose.

 

[sonic2009]

I wonder if the 150s will get 1st Class for RDG - BSK.

runs away

 

[ACE1888]

Interesting reading, shuffling the pack, but it's better than NOT doing anything about it I suppose? Always amuses me how 'Government Releases' are made out to be 'Huge News' no matter what....

 

[fgwrich]

tbtc, it's the two orphaned 'centre cars' from when LM formed up 3 car units, thanks to some writeoffs previously, forming them into the middle of 150/1 or 150/2 units can make a 3 car unit. Even through the're driving cars, they can be used for this purpose.

I wonder if the 150s will get 1st Class for RDG - BSK.

runs away

And to clear it up slightly further - It's only 150209 Which is toiletless - Formed from orphaned not so long after birth 57209 & 57212!

Sonic - So do i! It'll be interesting to see how these units are treated...Will the recieve a refresh simular to the rest of the 150/1 fleet, or will they get abit more work done to them...ie replacement FGW flooring, internal repaint (the ex Sliverlink units still retain the ex CCC central trains interior wall carpets!...And potential fitment/conversion of one of the parcel / bike ends into a First Class? (Doubt it though, First Class usage always seems rather low on the branch anyway)...Who knows!

 

[swt_passenger]

I also think (and hope) it will be on the Cotswold Line to replace current 166 operated services (not the HSTs) and this will allow 166s to increase capacity in the Thames Valley services.

I sometimes think you mustn't read previous posts before having these brilliant ideas - I answered this point with a link to FGW's announcement at 1500.

Taken together with the DfT's announcement it is already rock solid info that the 180s are replacing 'most Cotswold Turbos' and the latter displaced units will augment other services into Paddington...

 

[fgwrich]

I sometimes think you mustn't read previous posts before having these brilliant ideas - I answered this point with a link to FGW's announcement at 1500.

Taken together with the DfT's announcement it is already rock solid info that the 180s are replacing 'most Cotswold Turbos' and the latter displaced units will augment other services into Paddington...

I think the problems come partly about from having several threads covering simular, if not the same things - aka 150 threads for example!

I do wonder though, regarding the 180s, is to whether this mooted Paddington to Henley on Thames service is to remain?

As for the 180s themselves, I understand all 180 Fleets are due to undergo a pretty expensive and hefty underfloor maintenance project, in conjunction with Almost & Angel Trains - Sounds like something similar to the 175s & 458s!

 

[387star]

First Group must regret the decision to do away with the 180s and will probably fight to get the Grand Central units back.

Presumably First invested money in the trains along with the ROSCO? First Hull Trains already has part of the fleet and there was talk of Grand Central building its own fleet. I also heard patronage is low on the Bradford line. Grand Central have done little interior work to them which may indicate they will not stay long?
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Now I wait to hear about the 460s

 

[swt_passenger]

In the other now closed thread Train wasp asked why FGW hadn't thought about altering Mk 3 coaches before, and IanXC reported that they had already put out a tender for the work.

This tender went out back in April, and included:

The refresh and/or conversion of high speed rolling stock. This shall include some or all of the following:

a. class 180 high speed rolling stock refresh and exterior paint - up to 6 units (30 vehicles),
b. HST Mk3 TRFB conversion to HST TSHD vehicle refresh - up to 17 vehicles,
c. TSO loco hauled Mk3 Conversion to HST TSHD vehicle refresh,
d. HST TGS Mk3 conversion to HST TSHD vehicle refresh - up to 3 vehicles.

So that would suggest FGW have probably been organising this for nearly a year now, because publishing a tender comes a while after the project is first started...

 

[Schnellzug]

First Group must regret the decision to do away with the 180s and will probably fight to get the Grand Central units back.

Presumably First invested money in the trains along with the ROSCO? First Hull Trains already has part of the fleet and there was talk of Grand Central building its own fleet. I also heard patronage is low on the Bradford line. Grand Central have done little interior work to them which may indicate they will not stay long?

According to my Book from 2004, it seems that they were, then at any rate, owned by a subsidiary of First, called Wiltshire Trains. They now appear to be owned by Angel, who presumably took them over when GW decided they didn't want them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
.

And to clear it up slightly further - It's only 150209 Which is toiletless - Formed from orphaned not so long after birth 57209 & 57212! !

What happened to 52209/52212, by the way? I didn't know any 150s had been written orf.

 

[jopsuk]

16 Laira based 8 carriage long distance/low density sets.
10 Laira based 8 carriage high density sets.
18 Old Oak based 7 carriage high density sets.

Assuming that they're the same as they were at the start of the year.

According to the sometimes-reliable font of all knowledge Wikipedia they've got 54 sets and the top of this page on FGW's site says 53; your count only comes to 44- which is closer to what the bit at the bottom of that page says (43!)

What's the real number?

The tender has onviously been reduced somewhat (it has 21 mark 3 vehicle conversions), though it does seem silly that if they've got 18 7-car HD sets they're only go lengthen 15 of them?

 

[IanXC]

What happened to 52209/52212, by the way? I didn't know any 150s had been written orf.

I'd be interested to know this too. I grew up with them on my local line and only found this out when the break up the hybrid 150s was first discussed!

 

[PhilipW]

About the 15 Buffet Cars to be converted .....

Where were they used originally ? Were they part of previous HST formations ? or are they ex-Virgin stock made redundant with the arrivals of the Pendolinos ? or something else ?


Where are they now ? just lying redundant at some depot or at Long Marston ?

 

[Schnellzug]

According to the sometimes-reliable font of all knowledge Wikipedia they've got 54 sets and the top of this page on FGW's site says 53; your count only comes to 44- which is closer to what the bit at the bottom of that page says (43!)

What's the real number?

Railfaneurope.net, which I've always found pretty reliable, says 20 high-density 7-car, 17 8-car and 16 long-distance 8-car, for which there are 119 power cars.

 

[pemma]

These 150s are toilet-less?

Wouldn't it be better to keep them on the self contained branch line shuttles in the Thames Valley (e.g. Windsor)? A much shorter distance to go without a toilet...

The 2x150/0s have toilets according to Angel Trains: http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/en/fleet-portfolio/data-sheets/view/27-brel-prototype-sprinter

Neither of the mismatched 150/2 cars have toilets but they will be attached to other units with toilets opposed to running as a toilet less 150/2.

 

[jopsuk]

That makes for 53 (the first number FGW give) . 20 seven car sets would mean the original tender would have made some sort of sense. Surely, with suitable vehicles presumably already identified at the earlier stage, it wouldn't have broken the bank to make all the HD sets identical?

 

[bnm]

The tender has onviously been reduced somewhat (it has 21 mark 3 vehicle conversions), though it does seem silly that if they've got 18 7-car HD sets they're only go lengthen 15 of them?

Not to forget the loco hauled Mk3 TSO and 3 spare TGS being converted to TSHD. At least according to the tender. Not mentioned in the DfT press release so it is possible funding was not forthcoming for these 4 carriages.

About the 15 Buffet Cars to be converted .....
Where were they used originally ? Were they part of previous HST formations ? or are they ex-Virgin stock made redundant with the arrivals of the Pendolinos ? or something else ?

Where are they now ? just lying redundant at some depot or at Long Marston ?

Looking at fleet lists I can see 15 spare former FGW TRFBs owned by Angel Trains. Makes sense if its all those that are to be converted rather than some of them plus the 5 DB Regio owned former Virgin TRSBs that are also knocking about in store.

The former FGW TRFBs are currently stored at Eastleigh. The former Virgin TRSBs are at Long Marston.

Source: http://abrail.co.uk/lhcs_pass.htm

 

[driver9000]

What happened to 52209/52212, by the way? I didn't know any 150s had been written off

Both DMSLs were written off after being involved in separate serious collisions. One at St Helens Central in which the driver was killed around 1988 and I forget where the other one was. Somewhere on the Eastern region I think.

 

[PhilipW]

Looking at fleet lists I can see 15 spare former FGW TRFBs owned by Angel Trains.

If these were FGW were they previously parts of 8+2 HST sets and then removed to make 7+2 sets ?

If so, then they are just going back to where they were, albeit as TSOs.

 

[bnm]

If these were FGW were they previously parts of 8+2 HST sets and then removed to make 7+2 sets ?

If so, then they are just going back to where they were, albeit as TSOs.

They were indeed removed from sets to create 2+7s. With former Trailer Standards converted to Trailer Standard Micro Buffets.

 

[swt_passenger]

The tender has onviously been reduced somewhat (it has 21 mark 3 vehicle conversions), though it does seem silly that if they've got 18 7-car HD sets they're only go lengthen 15 of them?

Not unusual though - tenders nearly always provide for a range of numbers to be confirmed later in the procedure.

For instance the end result of items 'b.' and 'd.' in the list is the same, ie a TSHD - but the costs the contractor comes up with might be different depending on the starting vehicle type...

 

[fgwrich]

...
What happened to 52209/52212, by the way? I didn't know any 150s had been written orf.

Both DMSLs were written off after being involved in separate serious collisions. One at St Helens Central in which the driver was killed around 1988 and I forget where the other one was. Somewhere on the Eastern region I think.

From the Northern Rail Forum:

Dysgraphyk Post subject: Re: 150144Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:31 pm

Also, 52212 from 150212 was severely damaged in collision with a civil engineer's crane at Seamer on 15 December 1987, while working the 0618 Scarborough to York service.

Both 52209 and 52212 were official withdrawn 4/89 and scrapped at Vic Berry's Leicester 5/89.

BR ordered an extra class 158 as replacement.

Arguably one or both could have been repaired, as several 2nd generation MU's with worse damage have been repaired since then.

http://northernrailways.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4466

I too am rather supprised as to why BR never either A, rebuilt at least one coach with a toilet (Considering it would have been easier with the 319/321s in production at the time, fairly similar) or even rebuilt each unit/coach...

 

[tbtc]

tbtc, it's the two orphaned 'centre cars' from when LM formed up 3 car units, thanks to some writeoffs previously, forming them into the middle of 150/1 or 150/2 units can make a 3 car unit. Even through the're driving cars, they can be used for this purpose.

The 2x150/0s have toilets according to Angel Trains: http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/en/fleet-portfolio/data-sheets/view/27-brel-prototype-sprinter

Neither of the mismatched 150/2 cars have toilets but they will be attached to other units with toilets opposed to running as a toilet less 150/2.

Cheers both - I'd got it into my head that the reason that these were "unusual" was the lack of toilets, for some reason

 

[sprinterguy]

According to the sometimes-reliable font of all knowledge Wikipedia they've got 54 sets and the top of this page on FGW's site says 53; your count only comes to 44- which is closer to what the bit at the bottom of that page says (43!)

What's the real number?

Sorry, missed a sub-fleet

Add to my numbers 10 2+8 high density sets allocated to Old Oak Common. A total of 54 sets. That's for the start of 2011, possibly it's changed now to the 53 sets mentioned by schnellzug and FGW, but I'm not sure how twenty 2+7 high density sets works when they essentially have the 401xx catering vehicles allocated to them, and there's only nineteen of those vehicles. The abrail site linked a few posts above backs me up on my numbers.

So just for completeness, to my knowledge the sets are arranged thus:
LA01-LA16: 16 x 8-car long distance sets.
LA60-64, LA71-75: 10 x 8-car high density sets.
OC30-OC39: 10 x 8-car high density sets
OC40-OC57: 18 x 7-car high density sets

Details taken from the Platform 5 Combined Volume.