Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[ainsworth74]

Ok, I propose all motor vehicles from now on are restricted to 5mph at all times. That will save thousands of lives a year. Why would anyone oppose that?

Because that would cause gargantuan social and economic upheaval (that would make Lockdown look a picnic on a warm summers day) whilst wearing a face mask is a mild inconvenience?

 

[6Gman]

1. There is no scientifically proved point.
2. Everybody looks stupid.
3. I can’t wear one without it fogging up my glasses.

1. There is significant scientific evidence.
2. A small price to pay if it saves lives.
3. You're doing it wrong.

 

[MikeWM]

Because that would cause gargantuan social and economic upheaval (that would make Lockdown look a picnic on a warm summers day) whilst wearing a face mask is a mild inconvenience?

As you say, it is a balance. We accept 'collateral damage' from road traffic accidents (and, worse, the pollutants that motor vehicles cause) because, on balance, we accept it is necessary. Some (eg. extinction rebellion people) would disagree.

Masks are the same, just that the balance is at a different level. Do we accept a 'mild inconvenience' in order to achieve a (potential) very small reduction in risk? I say no, the inconvenience (plus the many other issues surrounding compulsory mask wearing) outweighs the risk reduction. Others, of course, disagree.

 

[sjpowermac]

Given the virtually-simultaneous messages from the Unions in response yesterday, I can believe this.

Although it seems they may be about to find that this was a bad plan

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-strike-over-shappss-face-covering-volunteers



!

I've always been very pro-Unions. But given the actions of the rail unions (along with the teachers unions) over the last few months, I'm sorry to say they are rapidly losing my support.

Off topic but the teaching unions have worked very hard to get schools open. Maybe you could reply on the appropriate thread as to what you feel they have done wrong?

 

[mmh]

Because the only way we can get back to normal is by reducing the infection rate. And anything which helps to reduce the infection rate is a step toward that aim.

Hospitalisations and deaths peaked in the fortnight after lockdown began, therefore infections (which cannot be counted unlike hospitalisation and death) must have peaked no later than the start of lockdown, probably, given the assumed incubation times and average time to fatality, the week before lockdown. Therefore the current infection rate must be lower than at any time during lockdown and the weeks prior to lockdown where social activity wasn't banned but frowned on.

Given we have a low infection rate, how much lower does it need to be? Why are we introducing restrictions at the tail end of infections which we didn't at the peak?

Also, given the impossibility of a precise figure for infections, how is this acceptable rate to be measured?

 

[ainsworth74]

Masks are the same, just that the balance is at a different level. Do we accept a 'mild inconvenience' in order to achieve a (potential) very small reduction in risk? I say no, the inconvenience (plus the many other issues surrounding compulsory mask wearing) outweighs the risk reduction. Others, of course, disagree.

I must admit I struggle to wrap my head around the reaction of some people to this news. It is being treated as if it's some sort massive imposition against civil liberties on a par with a dictatorial regime like China or Iran. When it really isn't. Honestly do not understand why it's so horrific that people are being required to wear a covering on their face in some situations for the protection of others. Sorry but I just don't get it!

 

[MikeWM]

Off topic but the teaching unions have worked very hard to get schools open. Maybe you could reply on the appropriate thread as to what you feel they have done wrong?

If you mean this thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...re-safer-if-they-are-attending-school.204134/

then I think the issues of the inital union reaction were dealt with in depth there at the time.

 

[MikeWM]

I must admit I struggle to wrap my head around the reaction of some people to this news. It is being treated as if it's some sort massive imposition against civil liberties on a par with a dictatorial regime like China or Iran. When it really isn't. Honestly do not understand why it's so horrific that people are being required to wear a covering on their face in some situations for the protection of others. Sorry but I just don't get it!

Seems fairly clear to me. This is a forum relating to railways, and a lot of people here are enthusiasts. Presumably a lot of people here find travelling on trains enjoyable. For many people - including myself - having to wear a mask will diminish that enjoyment significantly, to the level that I may well just not bother most of the time. I'm not sure what is surprising about the fact that many people here are therefore reluctant to do so.

There are of course strong civil liberties arguments too, I don't think they should be dismissed either.

 

[takno]

I must admit I struggle to wrap my head around the reaction of some people to this news. It is being treated as if it's some sort massive imposition against civil liberties on a par with a dictatorial regime like China or Iran. When it really isn't. Honestly do not understand why it's so horrific that people are being required to wear a covering on their face in some situations for the protection of others. Sorry but I just don't get it!

If the introduction of face masks a month ago had allowed us to start travelling then, it would have felt like a price worth paying. We are now painfully behind on re-opening, being driven nowhere by a government panicking about R-values they don't appear to even begin to understand, and more or less no useful lightening of the lockdown has happened at all. At best it's an utterly craven caving in the large proportion of people who at any one time seem to derive most of the their pleasure for other peoples suffering, and at worst it's a cynical government dragging things out to avoid taking responsibility for the nursing home disaster. The numbers from nursing homes are after all the main thing currently dividing us from more successful European countries.

I was happy enough to play along with the nonsense before, but right now there is no sign at all of an end date for it. The just-in-case brigade and their never-ending list of restrictions, both petty and major appear set to make my life a misery indefinitely. This isn't a single individual time-limited thing, so on its own it being "not that much" is absolutely no reason to feel reassured.

 

[underbank]

Why are we introducing restrictions at the tail end of infections which we didn't at the peak?

There was no need for masks of public transport when we were in full lockdown because so few people were using it, they could usually spread out, and there was very little "covid" out in the community anyway. Now more people are returning to normal (commuters, shoppers, etc), it's blatantly obvious social distancing will be impossible on trains & buses, so we need some other kind of protection and all we have in the armory is face coverings. It's basically that or nothing if people want to use public transport. Without precautions, covid will rampage through the community. Face coverings aren't perfect, but every little helps.

 

[Journeyman]

I was happy enough to play along with the nonsense before, but right now there is no sign at all of an end date for it. The just-in-case brigade and their never-ending list of restrictions, both petty and major appear set to make my life a misery indefinitely. This isn't a single individual time-limited thing, so on its own it being "not that much" is absolutely no reason to feel reassured.

Absolutely. We really need to get to the point where people assess risk for themselves and decide what they are and aren't willing to do, and making something like this compulsory is absolutely not the way to go. It won't be long before masks end up becoming widespread everywhere with no proper assessment of risks and benefits, and will make many activities difficult, impossible or at the very least significantly less enjoyable. Like the lockdown, I suspect the government won't have a clue how to emerge from it once it starts, and we'll end up with masks being widespread for years. Horrible.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Indeed. I do wonder when people's idea of a "dystopian world" is one where you're required to wear a face covering while travelling on a bus or train.

I don't consider a world where you have to wear a face covering on a bus or train dystopian. I do think it's a bit silly, and certainly have concerns that it'll essentially become permanent (that must be resisted as much as possible), but it isn't that big a deal.

What is dystopian is a society where mask wearing is the norm. Everyone looks pretty much the same wearing a mask, so individuality is gone, and much of our non-verbal communication will be banned. Imagine a world where you can't even smile at a friend - that's what we're risking becoming. I'm not saying that these measures will definitely lead to that, but mission creep is always a real risk.

 

[sjpowermac]

If you mean this thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...re-safer-if-they-are-attending-school.204134/

then I think the issues of the inital union reaction were dealt with in depth there at the time.

So you don’t actually have anything constructive to say, how convenient. I’ve checked that entire thread and I didn’t find a single post from you, so I’ve no idea what you have got against the teachers or their unions.

 

[sjpowermac]

I must admit I struggle to wrap my head around the reaction of some people to this news. It is being treated as if it's some sort massive imposition against civil liberties on a par with a dictatorial regime like China or Iran. When it really isn't. Honestly do not understand why it's so horrific that people are being required to wear a covering on their face in some situations for the protection of others. Sorry but I just don't get it!

I fully agree with all you’ve put there. If this helps in any way to get the public transport network opened up to more people then I fully support it. It’s astonishing the fuss that some are making.

 

[Journeyman]

I fully agree with all you’ve put there. If this helps in any way to get the public transport network opened up to more people then I fully support it. It’s astonishing the fuss that some are making.

I actually find it far more astonishing that people are accepting this without questioning it, especially because even Grant Shapps himself doesn't sound convinced.

 

[sjpowermac]

Seems fairly clear to me. This is a forum relating to railways, and a lot of people here are enthusiasts. Presumably a lot of people here find travelling on trains enjoyable. For many people - including myself - having to wear a mask will diminish that enjoyment significantly, to the level that I may well just not bother most of the time. I'm not sure what is surprising about the fact that many people here are therefore reluctant to do so.

There are of course strong civil liberties arguments too, I don't think they should be dismissed either.

I think the reactions here are very unlikely to be typical of the general public.

 

[sjpowermac]

I actually find it far more astonishing that people are accepting this without questioning it, especially because even Grant Shapps himself doesn't sound convinced.

We have just had over two months of our lives being very severely disrupted. For me, I’m more than happy to wear a face mask to help get back to some degree of normality on public transport. You are entitled to your opinion, I honestly couldn’t care less about the masks. Anyhow, masks are happening, so you will have to decide if you wish to travel or not.

 

[Journeyman]

We have just had over two months of our lives being very severely disrupted.

Yes, and I'm furious about how little this was criticised.

For me, I’m more than happy to wear a face mask to help get back to some degree of normality on public transport. You are entitled to your opinion, I honestly couldn’t care less about the masks.

I'm not happy about being forced to do something with absolutely no decent rationale behind it, backed up by serious punishment, and with no exit strategy. Being forced to wear a mask, which has a lot of detrimental social effects, is absolutely not a "return to normality", and if mask wearing becomes an accepted norm, it will never go away, and the consequences of that are vile.

 

[Searle]

Ok, I propose all motor vehicles from now on are restricted to 5mph at all times. That will save thousands of lives a year. Why would anyone oppose that?

Seriously though, this 'safety-ism' appears to be going to become the 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear' of the 2020s

What a ridiculous argument. You're equating putting a mask on your face for a few hours on public transport to only allowing the population to travel at 5mph? Get real.

 

[nedchester]

We have just had over two months of our lives being very severely disrupted. For me, I’m more than happy to wear a face mask to help get back to some degree of normality on public transport. You are entitled to your opinion, I honestly couldn’t care less about the masks. Anyhow, masks are happening, so you will have to decide if you wish to travel or not.

I said months ago that masks should have been used BUT as I have said elsewhere, my concern is for how long with they be compulsory for? With so many risk averse people around these days I worry that no-one will do lift the ban until there is 100% safety (clue: 100% safety doesn't exist)

 

[nedchester]

Absolutely. We really need to get to the point where people assess risk for themselves and decide what they are and aren't willing to do, and making something like this compulsory is absolutely not the way to go. It won't be long before masks end up becoming widespread everywhere with no proper assessment of risks and benefits, and will make many activities difficult, impossible or at the very least significantly less enjoyable. Like the lockdown, I suspect the government won't have a clue how to emerge from it once it starts, and we'll end up with masks being widespread for years. Horrible.

Not concerned about the mandatory use of masks in the short term (couple of months at most) but the rest of your points I entirely agree with.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit I struggle to wrap my head around the reaction of some people to this news. It is being treated as if it's some sort massive imposition against civil liberties on a par with a dictatorial regime like China or Iran. When it really isn't. Honestly do not understand why it's so horrific that people are being required to wear a covering on their face in some situations for the protection of others. Sorry but I just don't get it!

I do agree, but as quid pro quo, the rail industry should decist in promoting innacurate and misleading messages regarding essential/non-essential travel and instead refer to the latest government guidance around travel.

 

[BJames]

What a ridiculous argument. You're equating putting a mask on your face for a few hours on public transport to only allowing the population to travel at 5mph? Get real.

But it's ridiculous to think that you can get rid of all risk, which is what this government's messaging seems to be doing to people. An over the top example, obviously not meant in a serious way, to illustrate an important and fair point. I support face coverings on transport for now but that doesn't mean we should pretend this is an excellent resolution. People are willing to agree and follow for now because they think that this is a way of further reducing transmission - important to remember that the evidence remains inconclusive, which is why I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

We have just had over two months of our lives being very severely disrupted. For me, I’m more than happy to wear a face mask to help get back to some degree of normality on public transport. You are entitled to your opinion, I honestly couldn’t care less about the masks. Anyhow, masks are happening, so you will have to decide if you wish to travel or not.

While this is true and I do agree, I also consider that if there is too great a proportion of the population who don't wish to travel (only 4 out of 10 currently wearing face coverings on transport, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...le-in-uk-wear-a-face-covering-guardian-survey) then that's great for keeping numbers down but it's not great for starting society back up.

 

[sjpowermac]

Yes, and I'm furious about how little this was criticised.



I'm not happy about being forced to do something with absolutely no decent rationale behind it, backed up by serious punishment, and with no exit strategy. Being forced to wear a mask, which has a lot of detrimental social effects, is absolutely not a "return to normality", and if mask wearing becomes an accepted norm, it will never go away, and the consequences of that are vile.

Fine. Don’t wear a mask and don’t travel on public transport until the situation changes. Northern trains currently look like some kind of crime scene investigation with so many seats taped up ‘out of use’, I fail to see how that’s getting back to any kind of normal. I don’t have a car and so have no choice other than to use public transport. I’m more than happy to use a mask.

 

[flymo]

A quick question, prior to the virus did everyone in Hong Kong wear a mask all the time, or did they wear masks only when they had symptoms of a cold or flu? Because, and correct me if I am wrong, I'm pretty certain mask wearing was not the norm, even on public transport.

No of course not, why would that even be a question ? If you did have a cough or something similar pre-Covid-19 then yes you would wear a mask, me included, we call it civic responsibility.

I'm not sure now many times people need to hear this before it sinks in, masks will NOT stop you from contracting the virus but they WILL stop you from spreading it, even China learned this. This is not andecdotal, this is fact, we have the numbers here that prove it. Some people will not believe it but I'm not going to try to convince you as I have better things to do. Wear or don't wear, up to you.

in Hong Kong, we has SARS in 2003, which did not make its way in any notable form to Britain. SARS in 2003 infected 1750 people here and 286 of those died. People in HK learned from that episode, me included, which is why in a population of nearly 8 million densely packed people we have had 4 deaths.... 4 ! Britain has had 10x more than that in the time it has taken me to type this.

As soon as this infectious Covid-19 virus was made public and the first case was confirmed in HK on Jan 23, 2020 the masks came out. Social distancing is very difficult here but people did their bit, we still do it even after a couple of spikes.

Lastly, we've seen here so many people are Asymptomatic, i.e carriers and spreaders without symptoms, this will be the same in Britain. Wearing a mask will help prevent you spreading this virus, even if you show no symptoms, it has worked here. How hard can it be?

But what do we know ? we've only been through this 17 years ago and we're 98% back to normal now, something that will not be possible in Britain until goodness knows when. Not this year for sure.

Long story short, if you don't want to wear a mask then don't. Boris talks about the public using their common sense but right now I'm not sure there is any.

 

[sjpowermac]

I do agree, but as quid pro quo, the rail industry should decist in promoting innacurate and misleading messages regarding essential/non-essential travel and instead refer to the latest government guidance around travel.

I completely agree with all you’ve put there. Hopefully masks will lead to the changes you mentioned regarding messaging.

 

[yorksrob]

I completely agree with all you’ve put there. Hopefully masks will lead to the changes you mentioned regarding messaging.

Hopefully. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[sjpowermac]

No of course not, why would that even be a question ? If you did have a cough or something similar pre-Covid-19 then yes you would wear a mask, me included, we call it civic responsibility.

I'm not sure now many times people need to hear this before it sinks in, masks will NOT stop you from contracting the virus but they WILL stop you from spreading it, even China learned this. This is not andecdotal, this is fact, we have the numbers here that prove it. Some people will not believe it but I'm not going to try to convince you as I have better things to do. Wear or don't wear, up to you.

in Hong Kong, we has SARS in 2003, which did not make its way in any notable form to Britain. SARS in 2003 infected 1750 people here and 286 of those died. People in HK learned from that episode, me included, which is why in a population of nearly 8 million densely packed people we have had 4 deaths.... 4 ! Britain has had 10x more than that in the time it has taken me to type this.

As soon as this infectious Covid-19 virus was made public and the first case was confirmed in HK on Jan 23, 2020 the masks came out. Social distancing is very difficult here but people did their bit, we still do it even after a couple of spikes.

Lastly, we've seen here so many people are Asymptomatic, i.e carriers and spreaders without symptoms, this will be the same in Britain. Wearing a mask will help prevent you spreading this virus, even if you show no symptoms, it has worked here. How hard can it be?

But what do we know ? we've only been through this 17 years ago and we're 98% back to normal now, something that will not be possible in Britain until goodness knows when. Not this year for sure.

Long story short, if you don't want to wear a mask then don't. Boris talks about the public using their common sense but right now I'm not sure there is any.

Thank you so much for your very informative posts, very interesting indeed. I wouldn’t waste too much time speaking with some of the posters on here, they will accept or reject what they class as ‘weak’ evidence as it suits them. Thank you again for your time in giving us an insight into how another country is handling this.

 

[Bantamzen]

If the introduction of face masks a month ago had allowed us to start travelling then, it would have felt like a price worth paying. We are now painfully behind on re-opening, being driven nowhere by a government panicking about R-values they don't appear to even begin to understand, and more or less no useful lightening of the lockdown has happened at all. At best it's an utterly craven caving in the large proportion of people who at any one time seem to derive most of the their pleasure for other peoples suffering, and at worst it's a cynical government dragging things out to avoid taking responsibility for the nursing home disaster. The numbers from nursing homes are after all the main thing currently dividing us from more successful European countries.

I was happy enough to play along with the nonsense before, but right now there is no sign at all of an end date for it. The just-in-case brigade and their never-ending list of restrictions, both petty and major appear set to make my life a misery indefinitely. This isn't a single individual time-limited thing, so on its own it being "not that much" is absolutely no reason to feel reassured.

Its pretty much the way I feel. Had these measures kicked in from the start, I still wouldn't like them but at least it would be consistent to a degree. But just lobbing them in randomly, and politically means I feel the need to object.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I will admit, as much as I don't like wearing a mask for a long period of time because it makes it harder to breathe, the compulsory use of face masks on public transport is a very good idea. They may not be very effective, but they do promote you a sense of security. And indeed, if proven safe to travel on public transport (and flying), I will ride buses, trains and fly with a mask (if it's still compulsory of course). Hence why I said in one of my posts that I'll be very happy to fly abroad with a face mask (despite the disadvantage of not breathing properly) if the air bridges become reality and if the FCO finally lifts its advice against non essential international travel.

if the air bridges become reality

I'm planning to go to Spain at the very end of August, and Spain is one of the countries that could be on the air bridges, meaning that there is no need to quarantine on return.