Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[AM9]

There are various ways for hay fever sufferers to deal with this, from using treatments to simply carrying a issue. This method seems to have worked for decades, even centuries so I'm a little unclear as to why these don't t work any more?

Because there are frequent times when the tissue isn't in place in time, and that's just the reponsible ones, then there's those who just don't bother to do anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aha! I keep asking lockdown supporters by what measure at what level will they feel safe and allow social distancing, masks and the like to be dropped. Would you therefore say your measure is "no virus"? If so I applaud you for being the first person to be honest, but wonder if you realise that point may never occur.

I think the measure would sensibly be that the risk of spread in the scenario where masks are required is negligible. Probably stage 2 on the Government's scale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are various ways for hay fever sufferers to deal with this, from using treatments to simply carrying a issue. This method seems to have worked for decades, even centuries so I'm a little unclear as to why these don't t work any more?

I don't know, but they demonstrably aren't preventing spread, are they?

 

[ashkeba]

3. I can’t wear one without it fogging up my glasses.

Just to check because many new users get this wrong: you are wearing it with the top edge tight to your face under/behind your glasses and it is not tight (less than your nose length) on your top lip?

 

[Bantamzen]

Because there are frequent times when the tissue isn't in place in time, and that's just the reponsible ones, then there's those who just don't bother to do anything.

I've suffered from hay fever for 35 years, its never really been a major issue for me even when its been particularly bad. However these days I just have a teaspoon of honey each day, and have managed to cut down the sneezing by 95% at least.

I don't know, but they demonstrably aren't preventing spread, are they?

No, but they are performing the same function as a mask.

 

[mmh]

I think you've just compared apples to tinned peaches.

No. Both appeared as unpredicted public health crises. Both created a lot of fear across the general public. Both had mortality rates far lower than the worst predictions. Both have no vaccine and no cure.

No laws were created for one, laws were rushed in for the other.

 

[ashkeba]

There are various ways for hay fever sufferers to deal with this, from using treatments to simply carrying a issue. This method seems to have worked for decades, even centuries so I'm a little unclear as to why these don't t work any more?

Treatments are not completely effective and tissues definitely aren't, plus you'd need a LOT of tissues for hours on the train.

 

[Bantamzen]

Treatments are not completely effective and tissues definitely aren't, plus you'd need a LOT of tissues for hours on the train.

And yet its always been an accepted way to manage hay fever, until this year it seems.

 

[ashkeba]

And yet its always been an accepted way to manage hay fever, until this year it seems.

Yes, but according to some here, all hayfeverists who ever sneeze must now stay at home!

 

[trebor79]

As everyone will be denied travel unless wearing a face mask, what happens on long train journeys e.g. London to Glasgow and you need
liquid refreshments, does this mean you've to spend the whole journey without?

Of course not! You just remove it for a minute or two to eat or drink. Nobody is going to be fining anybody for daring to eat a sandwich or have a drink.
I don't like this edict at all - in fact I think it's absurd the government has gone from telling us masks aren't effective to all of a sudden saying "you must wear a mask". But honestly, some of the posts on here are even more absurd.

 

[island]

As everyone will be denied travel unless wearing a face mask, what happens on long train journeys e.g. London to Glasgow and you need
liquid refreshments, does this mean you've to spend the whole journey without?

Once you’ve crossed the Scottish border you can chuck the mask away as it has not (to date) been made a legal requirement there.

I must admit, I agree with Siddique Khan's point that if compulsory in public transport, face coverings should be made compulsory in other enclosed public settings.

I'm uneasy about public transport being made a special case in this respect, and I think that there will be more rigorous review of their benefit/disbenefit if applied to a larger range of settings.

To the extent that masks work, which is debatable, the theory is that in public transport you will be within a close distance of other potential carriers for a long period of time. In retail stores, you generally will not.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes, but according to some here, all hayfeverists who ever sneeze must now stay at home!

To be fair its not just hayfeverists they want to stay at home, its pretty much anyone with symptoms, anyone without symptoms, anyone that breaths....

 

[Momo and diggy]

Should heritage railways now be opened as long as passengers wear face masks

 

[Domh245]

No. Both appeared as unpredicted public health crises. Both created a lot of fear across the general public. Both had mortality rates far lower than the worst predictions. Both have no vaccine and no cure.

No laws were created for one, laws were rushed in for the other.

I'm a little concerned that you don't seem to appreciate the difference between the fact HIV is spread by sharing bodily fluids in quite 'involved' ways, whereas the other can be spread by touching door handles and standing next to someone for an extended period of time.

 

[trebor79]

Of course there are other reasons. I brought it up on the other public transport thread. I don't yet know about masks , however I have sensitive skin and I almost never wear hat's. On occasion I have worn a beany hat , I have developed a bit of rash or at least some itching , so I stopped wearing them except on my last bit of the day , walking home from the station and only at around two am on the very coldest night's . Btw I used to attend the homeopathic hospital for my skin. Problem is possibly if I have a similar reaction to a mask . I'm not so worried about the home journey , as I want to do my bit for society and I can deal with an itch for an hour or two. I'm concerned about the trip to work and also if I have to wear them every time I change ends on a platform. I could be forever itching and scratching and that is not great , when you have to drive a train. Thing is , as I have never needed to wear one and never had to wear a hat , I have never sought an exemption . I also don't have breathing problems , so am not in the exempted catagory.

Just tell them you have asthma. They have to take that at face value, it's not like they can demand to see your medical records.
I will put a scarf over my face as a token gesture. I suspect it'll be uncomfortable and I'll then remove it and see if I get challenged. "Asthma" might be my response if I am challenged.

 

[trebor79]

A couple of years, potentially.

If they cause a sustained downturn in spread and allow other measures to be relaxed (e.g. we can remove all social distancing controls on trains) then they are a benefit for as long as the virus remains in circulation. And there is only one way to really know if they will do that - try it for a few weeks.

I think we can already say this measure will have zero impact on R. Trains and buses are carrying nothing but fresh air at the moment. There can be little to no transmission happening in public transport at present, because nobody is using public transport.
More people on public transport will lead to more transmission. We will have no idea how much of an impact masks are having, because we haven't tried more people on public transport without masks yet.

 

[Scrotnig]

Of course not! You just remove it for a minute or two to eat or drink. Nobody is going to be fining anybody for daring to eat a sandwich or have a drink.

The problem is, there is no legal exemption for eating and drinking. You cannot remove your mask to eat or drink, nor for any other reason.

Telling someone "it's ok, the authorities will turn a blind eye to that" simply isn't good enough.

 

[Scrotnig]

Should heritage railways now be opened as long as passengers wear face masks

Not if they want any passengers.

 

[ashkeba]

More people on public transport will lead to more transmission. We will have no idea how much of an impact masks are having, because we haven't tried more people on public transport without masks yet.

Has anywhere else opened public transport for a while and then required masks without other change?

 

[mmh]

I'm a little concerned that you don't seem to appreciate the difference between the fact HIV is spread by sharing bodily fluids in quite 'involved' ways, whereas the other can be spread by touching door handles and standing next to someone for an extended period of time.

Of course I appreciate that. I'm questioning the wildly different public health response to the two in relation to altering and regulating behaviour to suppress transmission of the two. The transmission probability of HIV is moderate, the transmission probability of Covid-19 is likely to be too, else we would have experienced more cluster outbreaks. The fatality rate from uncontrolled HIV is very high. The fatality rate from Covid-19 is low. Yet we have regulated against one and not the other.

 

[AM9]

No. Both appeared as unpredicted public health crises. Both created a lot of fear across the general public. Both had mortality rates far lower than the worst predictions. Both have no vaccine and no cure.

No laws were created for one, laws were rushed in for the other.

But the chance of having sex with sombody by accident is almost non-existent and being forced to have sex with somebody against your will is a criminal offence. You can catch the virus by sitting in a train by yourself, a safe distance from all others, when somebody boards at a station and sits near you breathing in your direction. Hey presto, according to many here, they've done notheing wrong, but you could end up seriously ill or worse. There's a world of difference there so as nlogax says you've "compared apples to tinned peaches", in other words the comparison is invalid.

 

[ashkeba]

Of course not! You just remove it for a minute or two to eat or drink. Nobody is going to be fining anybody for daring to eat a sandwich or have a drink.

It's not difficult to slip a bitesize bit of food up the bottom of a face covering and into your mouth. Think scarf not medical mask. If you want to remove it, go outside.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

We didn't introduce laws regulating sex to prevent HIV spread. Why not?

There have, however, been prosecutions against people who have deliberately spread it - which shows that, as in most cases that generate a lot of attention and calls for new laws, existing laws already cover the matter.

About other subjects in the thread that seem to be coming up fairly frequently:

* On Eurostar masks have been compulsory for a few weeks already as it is the law in France and Belgium, but they do allow a quick removal for the purpose of eating and drinking. Their on board catering is still suspended, so it is reasonable to extrapolate that nobody is going to get in trouble for taking a quick sip of water or popping a biscuit in their mouth over here.

* I'm deaf myself, but I don't do sign language. I don't lipread either, although I do understand people better if I can see their lips, that's true. There are transparent masks available for this purpose but other deaf people tell me that those are useless as they fog up in seconds anyway. Bear in mind there is always the back up method of writing things down.

* France has just allowed SNCF to resume 100% capacity, even removing the requirement - from the 8th June - to have a boarding pass for TER services, with only the Ile de France region still having some distancing / capacity restrictions, but bearing in mind that Paris is where the infections are most concentrated still that is not a great surprise. It does, however, indicate that masks are a step towards 100% capacity on public transport - though i do agree with those who hope it is only a temporary measure.


Now a question of my own - which type of mask is easier to breathe through? The commonly seen rectangular type or the DIY type?

 

[trebor79]

The problem is, there is no legal exemption for eating and drinking. You cannot remove your mask to eat or drink, nor for any other reason.

Telling someone "it's ok, the authorities will turn a blind eye to that" simply isn't good enough.

If I was issued with a fine on the basis that I'd momentarily moved enough of my covering to sip some water I would not pay it. I'm pretty confident a court of law would apply some sense.
Define "wear a face covering". You might not even need to remove it to drink, just pull it aside a little.

 

[ashkeba]

Now a question of my own - which type of mask is easier to breathe through? The commonly seen rectangular type or the DIY type?

The DIY but they are less effective in limiting spread, but still should be goed enough.

 

[Adam Williams]

Is there scientific evidence that pushing a scarf over your face will considerably reduce the risk?

There's evidence it reduces transmission of aerosolized droplets, yes. Obviously the cloth masks/homemade face coverings are worse than e.g. FFP2 masks, but you can see the study from the university of Edinburgh suggests a reduction in air flow of at least 63% for coughing across all mask types, including handmade coverings.

 

[Scrotnig]

If I was issued with a fine on the basis that I'd momentarily moved enough of my covering to sip some water I would not pay it. I'm pretty confident a court of law would apply some sense.
Define "wear a face covering". You might not even need to remove it to drink, just pull it aside a little.

But most people don't want that level of hassle in their lives. They don't want the threat of a court hearing hanging over them, even if they may well win (which is never certain in any case - courts don't decide whether the law is stupid, they decide whether the law has been broken).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The DIY but they are less effective in limiting spread, but still should be goed enough.

Thanks - so if I was going to be going anywhere while they are still compulsory, I would find it more comfortable with the small "snout" type mask?

 

[ainsworth74]

There are many diseases without a cure we don't feel the need to attempt to suppress by criminalising everyday behaviour. We didn't introduce laws regulating sex to prevent HIV spread. Why not?

HIV is a funny choice as the chance of spreading it is, of course, reduced by using a condom (as with most sexually transmitted infections) which rather fulfils a similar function to a mask. We also have effective treatments for HIV which can enable those who catch it to live long and healthy lives in most cases. We have no proven treatments for Covid-19 so we're very much relying on the luck of the draw as to whether or not your case is minor or not (obviously untreated HIV is far more fatal than untreated Covid-19 but still we do have treatments for HIV and don't for Covid-19).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, but they are performing the same function as a mask.

IF you get them in place quickly enough.