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Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

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Scrotnig

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As an aside -slightly off topic but still relevant - the method of introducing the legislation and the wording contained therein might also have repercussions to the Heritage Railway movement who may be looking to re-open soon.

And as also noted above, if the wearing of face coverings does accidentally end up covering heritage railways too by virtue of the wording used in the legislation, then how long it takes for the law to be removed is just as important. Dining Trains, Santa trains and a host of other activities might actually become possible and viable if social distancing is reduced, but remain difficult (nigh on impossible) and just simply undesirable and unenjoyable if the wearing of face coverings continues for any length of time.
This is absolutely true. Prior to this crisis I regularly travelled on numerous heritage railways, and will hopefully do so again in the future, but not if I have to wear a muzzle. I won't go near.

Additionally it is to be hoped our many beautifully restored heritage railway stations and carriages don't have to be defaced by miles of red and white hazard tape everywhere! Better to shut up shop if that's going to be the future.
 
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lyndhurst25

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The conductors will not pass through the passenger saloon except in emergency situations or should say a pass com need resetting. They will not challenge anyone for not wearing masks and trains must not be delayed at any time for that reason.

My experience travelling on Northern is that since Guards have remained in the back cab because of Covid, low level antisocial behaviour by passengers, and I suspect ticketless travel, have increased.

As for compulsory face masks, I'm reluctantly for them, especially after an incident last week where there was a young couple on the train sat two rows away from me, both of them persistently coughing without covering their faces. I'm talking about proper coughing fits, not just clearing the throat. I've never felt the need to give total strangers health advice before, but I was almost tempted to do so. They should have been isolating at home, and certainly not travelling by train. If they'd been wearing masks then I'd a felt a little more comfortable. It only takes one idiot to potentially infect a whole carriage full of passengers. The problem is that there's no one to enforce the rule and I suspect that it will be ignored by many.
 

Scrotnig

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How long is this in place for then? Everybody still going to be muzzled in five years?
Whatever they do regarding the legal position, there are going to be people who insist on muzzling themselves for years and years now. That's kind of ok except that these same people will be trying to ensure everyone else does the same.

This is all assuming we still have public railways in five years of course. If things don't change quite soon most will be gone. And as others have said, we on this site are (presumably) rail enthusiasts in some form or other, yet some of us are supporting measures that are likely to ensure either no railways at all, or a vastly reduced network. It's akin to rail enthusiasts supporting Beeching!
 

Scrotnig

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As for compulsory face masks, I'm reluctantly for them, especially after an incident last week where there was a young couple on the train sat two rows away from me, both of them persistently coughing without covering their faces. I'm talking about proper coughing fits, not just clearing the throat. I've never felt the need to give total strangers health advice before, but I was almost tempted to do so. They should have been isolating at home, and certainly not travelling by train. If they'd been wearing masks then I'd a felt a little more comfortable. It only takes one idiot to potentially infect a whole carriage full of passengers. The problem is that there's no one to enforce the rule and I suspect that it will be ignored by many.
You are of course right about that scenario, though it's highly possible it could have been hay fever. It can happen to me, it can set off a ludicrous coughing fit which has no valid explanation. Luckily so far only alone at home, but if I was out and about I'd be mortified and be saying "it's ok, it's hay fever, honest!". Which would probably make it look even more suspect! Oh dear....
 

Bletchleyite

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You are of course right about that scenario, though it's highly possible it could have been hay fever. It can happen to me, it can set off a ludicrous coughing fit which has no valid explanation. Luckily so far only alone at home, but if I was out and about I'd be mortified and be saying "it's ok, it's hay fever, honest!". Which would probably make it look even more suspect! Oh dear....

People do seem to be being reasonable. As I don't like lying, I've answered "have you got X" questions honestly. Yes, I do have a persistent cough - as I always do due to chronic acid reflux. Yes, I do have persistent minor breathing difficulties - as I always do due to asthma (the two are to some extent related, though research on that relationship hasn't really identified which causes which yet). In effect the only way for me to identify COVID is one of the other symptoms (smell/taste or temperature).
 

Scrotnig

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People do seem to be being reasonable. As I don't like lying, I've answered "have you got X" questions honestly. Yes, I do have a persistent cough - as I always do due to chronic acid reflux. Yes, I do have persistent minor breathing difficulties - as I always do due to asthma (the two are to some extent related, though research on that relationship hasn't really identified which causes which yet). In effect the only way for me to identify COVID is one of the other symptoms (smell/taste or temperature).
Such forms are not helpful as they are often not accurate.

For example, with the cough symptom, the correct question should be "Do you have a NEW persistent cough?". And I think it should also be 'dry' cough.

Plenty of people have persistent coughs they've had for years, doesn't mean they have Covid-19.

Hay fever is definitely a tricky one, since most of the symptoms directly match what we are supposed to look out for with the virus. Luckily my hay fever is mostly mild and doesn't hit me all the time. I really pity those who have it almost constantly through the summer.
 

theironroad

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So, what happens if you refuse to wear one?

12 months hard labour breaking rocks up.

or someone reminding you that you are supposed to be wearing one.

In theory, BTP can fine you £100 (reduced to £50 if paid in 14 days), but afaik it is only BTP so considering how many of them are around the country, not much will happen.

Personally, I think the issue is going to be passenger on passenger conflict between the 100% 24/7 wearers and those who will never wear one. Even without alcohol induced travel, I can see a lot of arguments happening and when alcohol is involved at night and weekends then more conflict is likely.
 
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Local news article with operators giving their views:


Charles Sanders, managing director of Sanders Coaches, said: “If people refuse to wear face coverings and insist on travelling, drivers will call management who will speak to the customer and urge them to put on a face covering.

“If they then continue to refuse to wear a face covering and do not get off the bus, we will look into contacting the police.

“But we’re really hoping that most people will comply and won’t be face with that issue. It is the law and people will be told that by drivers. We do not expect it will be a problem as lots of people are wearing face coverings already.”

Mention nothing about exemptions or how passengers will go about explaining their exemption. Also seems strange how they are stating the driver will call management and hand the phone over to the customer. Where's the sense in that with unnecessary contact and delay to the journey?
 

BJames

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Local news article with operators giving their views:




Mention nothing about exemptions or how passengers will go about explaining their exemption. Also seems strange how they are stating the driver will call management and hand the phone over to the customer. Where's the sense in that with unnecessary contact and delay to the journey?
It really depends how high compliance is. If they find even one passenger on every other service not willing to wear a face mask, the police will get pretty fed up of being called out and I can't imagine controllers or management are going to want to speak to every passenger not complying.
 

Bletchleyite

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It really depends how high compliance is. If they find even one passenger on every other service not willing to wear a face mask, the police will get pretty fed up of being called out and I can't imagine controllers or management are going to want to speak to every passenger not complying.

In reality with a bus the "newspaper method" will be used in the vast majority of cases, just like it is for every other passenger issue.
 

Scrotnig

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Local news article with operators giving their views:




Mention nothing about exemptions or how passengers will go about explaining their exemption. Also seems strange how they are stating the driver will call management and hand the phone over to the customer. Where's the sense in that with unnecessary contact and delay to the journey?
Hand the phone over to the customer? No chance I would touch it! Handling phones multiple other people have used is a much bigger risk than walking past someone who isn’t wearing a muzzle.

Makes me wonder what the ultimate goal is here. Is it controlling the spread of the virus, or is it controlling and oppressing the population?
 

theironroad

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Hand the phone over to the customer? No chance I would touch it! Handling phones multiple other people have used is a much bigger risk than walking past someone who isn’t wearing a muzzle.

Makes me wonder what the ultimate goal is here. Is it controlling the spread of the virus, or is it controlling and oppressing the population?

Well the phone could be put on speaker and held by the driver 2m from the passenger while the manager tried to persuade , but if there is no covering available then the person will have o get off.

Realistically, it the driver can't persuade the person to ,then a manager on the end of a phone has zero chance, but suppose they can cancel the service and the everyone off, so that's great isn't it.

999 or 101 operator " all units, all units, face covering non compliance in progress, nearest unit standby for back up as person may be dangerous , armed response 2 minutes away...." ....or something like that...:)
 

PG

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Local news article
Thanks for the article, I see its from that bastion of journalism, the Eastern Daily Press.;)
“If they then continue to refuse to wear a face covering and do not get off the bus, we will look into contacting the police.["]
Note the wording used: we will look into contacting the police, as opposed to we will contact the police. No mention (assuming that management do contact the police) of the method used, could be a text message or email rather than a phone call. In other words I doubt that it actually means the bus would be sitting waiting for the police to arrive, merely that the police will be made aware and thus might come and review the CCTV later. If they really needed to make an example to get the message across then assuming that they can identify the passenger they could then go and issue them with a fine I believe.

As a further aside do Sanders vehicles have two way radios or are they just using mobile phones?
As in the time I've been composing this the next quote has beaten me to it!
Hand the phone over to the customer? No chance I would touch it! Handling phones multiple other people have used is a much bigger risk than walking past someone who isn’t wearing a muzzle.
With an infectious airborne virus about there is no chance of any passenger being permitted to speak into my phone even less touch it!
 

Bikeman78

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Thanks for the article, I see its from that bastion of journalism, the Eastern Daily Press.;)

Note the wording used: we will look into contacting the police, as opposed to we will contact the police. No mention (assuming that management do contact the police) of the method used, could be a text message or email rather than a phone call. In other words I doubt that it actually means the bus would be sitting waiting for the police to arrive, merely that the police will be made aware and thus might come and review the CCTV later. If they really needed to make an example to get the message across then assuming that they can identify the passenger they could then go and issue them with a fine I believe.
I used to live in a flat that overlooked a bus stop. Every so often the local scumbags would have a go at a bus driver. Even without looking out of the window I could tell when it was kicking off because I could hear the bus engine droning away far longer than usual. I called the Police a few times when I could see the driver getting grief; they never seemed very interested. However, on one occasion three Police cars turned up very quickly (I hadn't called them) and surrounded the bus. Makes me wonder what the bus driver said to them!

Given the above I don't suppose they'll be terribly interested in someone not wearing a mask, but I could be wrong.
 

island

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12 months hard labour breaking rocks up.

or someone reminding you that you are supposed to be wearing one.

In theory, BTP can fine you £100 (reduced to £50 if paid in 14 days), but afaik it is only BTP so considering how many of them are around the country, not much will happen.

Personally, I think the issue is going to be passenger on passenger conflict between the 100% 24/7 wearers and those who will never wear one. Even without alcohol induced travel, I can see a lot of arguments happening and when alcohol is involved at night and weekends then more conflict is likely.
I don’t believe this is correct. Can you cite the piece of legislation that states BTP can issue fines for not wearing a face covering, please?
 

anthony263

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I for one wont be leaving the cab of my bus to enforce passengers wearing face mask.

I'm also against the 2m rule should only be 1m and like quite a few people in wales I've gotten very tired of this lockdown
 

anthony263

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Some government reports seem to be suggesting that we do as are rail staff although I'm still trying to find the article where i read it.

Luckily our union has already put the idea in the trash pile
 

theironroad

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I don’t believe this is correct. Can you cite the piece of legislation that states BTP can issue fines for not wearing a face covering, please?

As you well now, as it has been the subject of the last few hundred posts on this thread the legislation seems to be lacking, initially it was going to be incorporated into NRCoT but now the plan is to amend the public health act (1984) I believe.

However, I'll try to recall where I saw the fine info etc and get back to you.
 

theironroad

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While i try and find the article that lists the fines, this is an excerpt from the transcript nfor yesterday's no10 press conference hosted by shapps.

"From Monday, it becomes mandatory in England to wear a face covering on public transport – that includes trains, buses, trams, ferries and planes.


A ‘face covering’ does not mean a surgical mask.


Face coverings can be made at home and you can find the guidance at GOV.UK.


As we move to recovery, it’s more important than ever to protect each other…


Preventing those showing no symptoms from infecting others.


I know there’s huge public support for compulsory face coverings…


They show respect for our fellow travellers.


But for clarity, transport operators will be able to refuse permission to travel where someone isn’t using a face covering…


And this weekend I am taking powers through the Public Health Act leading to fines for non-compliance too.


We’ll take a gentle approach to enforcement during the first couple of days.


And help will be at hand.


In addition to British Transport Police, and staff working for Network Rail, TfL and Transport Operators…


In the coming weeks we’ll also deploy Journey Makers to assist and remind commuters of the need to wear a face covering…


Plus the Safer Transport campaign will provide plenty of reminders at bus stops, rail stations and on social media.


Remembering your face covering should be the same as picking up your phone, wallet or purse when you leave home.


Please read the guidance, ensure you have a face covering and protect your fellow commuters."
 
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island

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While i try and find the article that lists the fines, this is an excerpt from the transcript nfor yesterday's no10 press conference hosted by shapps.

"From Monday, it becomes mandatory in England to wear a face covering on public transport – that includes trains, buses, trams, ferries and planes.


A ‘face covering’ does not mean a surgical mask.


Face coverings can be made at home and you can find the guidance at GOV.UK.


As we move to recovery, it’s more important than ever to protect each other…


Preventing those showing no symptoms from infecting others.


I know there’s huge public support for compulsory face coverings…


They show respect for our fellow travellers.


But for clarity, transport operators will be able to refuse permission to travel where someone isn’t using a face covering…


And this weekend I am taking powers through the Public Health Act leading to fines for non-compliance too.


We’ll take a gentle approach to enforcement during the first couple of days.


And help will be at hand.


In addition to British Transport Police, and staff working for Network Rail, TfL and Transport Operators…


In the coming weeks we’ll also deploy Journey Makers to assist and remind commuters of the need to wear a face covering…


Plus the Safer Transport campaign will provide plenty of reminders at bus stops, rail stations and on social media.


Remembering your face covering should be the same as picking up your phone, wallet or purse when you leave home.


Please read the guidance, ensure you have a face covering and protect your fellow commuters."
Here in the United Kingdom, we operate under the rule of law.

Government Ministers making speeches, statements being placed on websites, signage at stations, and warnings on PISs do not make law. The Houses of Parliament make law. They delegate some of these law-making authorities to ministers and others, but these powers have to be exercised in the manner that the Houses of Parliament have specified.

Your assertion that a law provides for the issuance of fines to members of the public failing to wear face coverings on public transport was not correct. A law may come into existence in the future that so provides. For now, one does not, and no amount of wibble spoken by Grant Shapps makes one exist.
 

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Remembering your face covering should be the same as picking up your phone, wallet or purse when you leave home.
No it shouldn't. I've always needed my wallet and always will. Engendering that idea into the population will see them walking around masked up in perpetuity.
 

theironroad

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Here in the United Kingdom, we operate under the rule of law.

Government Ministers making speeches, statements being placed on websites, signage at stations, and warnings on PISs do not make law. The Houses of Parliament make law. They delegate some of these law-making authorities to ministers and others, but these powers have to be exercised in the manner that the Houses of Parliament have specified.

Your assertion that a law provides for the issuance of fines to members of the public failing to wear face coverings on public transport was not correct. A law may come into existence in the future that so provides. For now, one does not, and no amount of wibble spoken by Grant Shapps makes one exist.

Spare me the law lecture, I've nowhere said that legislation of any sort has been enacted, and more than aware that no offence can currently be committed until such time as it is. The post about fines was written in the context of what has been reported by the media about what will be the consequences of not wearing one when legislation has been enacted.

However the government and rail industry are making it clear that the law and rules will be changed from Monday and that's what the general discussion on here is about.

Maybe the moderators should consider pausing posts to this thread until the law is changed, as it appears general discussion is confusing some.
 

theironroad

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No it shouldn't. I've always needed my wallet and always will. Engendering that idea into the population will see them walking around masked up in perpetuity.

You may always need your wallet, many people don't, just their phone ........and face covering,.....
 

theironroad

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While I'm reluctant to further this thread as it is open to misunderstanding, I pledged up thread to find the source of fine levels that have been announced. This is from the government website but it is NOT legislation, it is provided for people who are interested in the consequences of not wearing a face covering AFTER the rules have been changed.

"
  • from Monday 15 June everyone must wear a face covering when travelling by public transport in England
  • under the new rules, operators will be able to prevent passengers who refuse to follow the rules from travelling and police will be able to issue fines of £100
  • over 3,000 extra staff will be deployed from Monday to support the travelling public, reminding people about the need to wear face coverings and helping vulnerable passengers

New rules requiring passengers to wear a face covering on their journey will come into force on public transport across England from Monday, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has confirmed today (Friday 12 June).


The advice is clear that people should continue to avoid taking public transport where possible, but by mandating the use of face coverings government is asking passengers to play their part in helping to protect each other as the numbers of people travelling gradually start to rise across the country, following the careful easing of restrictions when it’s safe to do so.


Over 3,000 extra staff from British Transport Police, Network Rail, Train Operating Companies and Transport for London will be deployed from Monday at key transport hubs and interchanges across England – providing dedicated reassurance, advice and friendly assistance to people as they follow social distancing guidance.


They will also support existing staff by helping to manage congestion.


Alongside this, hundreds of thousands of face coverings will be handed out for passenger use at many locations across the rail network in England from Monday. The one-off initiative, which will run for several days at a number of stations, will see coverings provided free of charge to support passengers and help them travel safely.


Under the changes, operators will be able to stop passengers who refuse to follow the rules from travelling and direct them to leave services. The police and Transport for London authorised personnel will also be able to issue fixed penalty notices of £100, or £50 if paid in 14 days. Exemptions for the use of face coverings will apply to those with certain health conditions, disabled people and children under the age of 11.


Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said:


We’ve seen how the COVID-19 pandemic has unlocked a community spirit right across our nation, and we now need to extend this to our transport network so we can help keep one another safe.

If you do need to travel, in the same way that you would pick up your phone, wallet or keys when you leave the house, please remember to bring a face covering.

Our fantastic transport staff will be on hand to provide help and advice, and free coverings will be given out at key train stations to help kick-start this initiative. This is another small, sensible step we can all take to help us defeat this virus.

The Regulations, which will be made under the Public Health Act 1984 and come into force on Monday, will make face coverings mandatory on buses, coaches, trams, ferries, aircraft and trains. In addition, some operators will amend their conditions of carriage, allowing them to enforce the requirement in a similar way to the rules on having a ticket for travel, meaning they can implement the changes in the way that works best for them.


The change from Monday will coincide with the easing of certain lockdown measures, including the reopening of non-essential retail stores. While social distancing and hand washing remain by far the most important disease prevention measures, when necessary to use public transport, people may be more likely to be in enclosed spaces for longer periods of time where we know there is a greater risk of the spread of the virus and social distancing is likely to be difficult to follow consistently."


 
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Mag_seven

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The revised legislation from Monday at the moment does not state anything about face coverings.


I suspect there may need to separate legislation to cover this issue which would need to be published tomorrow if it has to take effect from Monday.
 

WM Bus

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In reality with a bus the "newspaper method" will be used in the vast majority of cases, just like it is for every other passenger issue.
I don't think it can be used to be honest, as that passenger they are asking to wear a mask could have a exemption.

And even with other passenger issues the "newspaper method" doesn't always work and some drivers don't do that in the first place.
 
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