Face coverings mandatory in shops in Scotland

[bramling]

We are talking about wearing masks in shops, not an 8 hour shift on a forklift...

Is It Dangerous to Wear a COVID-19 Protective Mask for Too Long?

Prolonged usage of certain masks can cause some health concerns.

www.snopes.com

It would, however, be 8 hours for staff. I presume this is part of the reason why people like railway staff are exempt - so you just get the dagger looks instead (from a small but conspicuous subset of people).

 

[Ian Cunningham]

There is plenty of evidence to support this.

Very few people wear masks for extended periods - whole shifts - many of those that do - for instance those tasked with tank cleaning for instance - have highly technical and expensive apparatus designed to ameliorate the known hazards and will be subject to a health and safety case and regime.

Many medical experts have expressed grave concerns over extended mask wearing, the risk of Hypoxia being one of them - deliberately putting people operating dangerous machinery such as forklifts in danger of Hypoxia is utterly reckless. Prolonged Hypoxia is associated with low levels of oxygen, it is known that cancer cells grow best in a micro-environment low in oxygen.

Studies have also shown that hypoxia inhibits immune cells used to fight viral infections.

Also scaring the elderly in particular into doing themselves harm by prolonged wearing of masks is verging on the criminal.

You have stated twice that there is evidence that wearing a mask is harmful to health but have not cited any.

RPE (Respiratory Protective Equipment) is widely used in many workplaces and is mandatory in many cases depending on the hazard.
Unless you have an existing breathing issue, used correctly RPE is not, in any way, harmful to health. Hypoxia is simply not caused by a mask itself - read the HSE guidance on RPE, you will find no reference to hypoxia being a hazard caused by the wearing of RPE

HSE recommend do that non-assisted RPE masks are not worn continuously for more than one hour at a time before a break is taken (this is largely for user comfort)
This is for masks that need a face-seal (eg FFP1-3) lightweight surgical masks are not included (and aren't generally considered as RPE anyway) Cloth face coverings generally have a fit similar to surgical masks and do not seal to the face

You mentioned tank cleaning - that's normally done with portable or line-fed breathing apparatus as the environment is often oxygen deficient (or contaminated) so mask-type RPE is not suitable

 

[kylemore]

We are talking about wearing masks in shops, not an 8 hour shift on a forklift...

Is It Dangerous to Wear a COVID-19 Protective Mask for Too Long?

Prolonged usage of certain masks can cause some health concerns.

www.snopes.com

We are talking about employees in shops having to wear masks and the Amazon propaganda for instance clearly shows all their employees wearing masks - including those working machinery and driving, do Amazon allow free choice?

 

[adc82140]

Mask wearing does not lead to hypoxia. I have to wear one all day on a 12 hour nhs shift. I'm still alive. However I'm also in air con all day, and so it's not hot. If required to do so by law I will wear one I a shop, but certainly not out in public in the open air particularly if the weather is hot.

 

[Journeyman]

Mask wearing does not lead to hypoxia. I have to wear one all day on a 12 hour nhs shift. I'm still alive. However I'm also in air con all day, and so it's not hot. If required to do so by law I will wear one I a shop, but certainly not out in public in the open air particularly if the weather is hot.

That's certainly my view. It's blindingly obvious that wearing them indoors is something we'll have to tolerate for a while at least, but there's no way I'm wearing one outside.

 

[Richard Scott]

Mask wearing does not lead to hypoxia. I have to wear one all day on a 12 hour nhs shift. I'm still alive. However I'm also in air con all day, and so it's not hot. If required to do so by law I will wear one I a shop, but certainly not out in public in the open air particularly if the weather is hot.

But is there a difference between an NHS mask that is designed to be worn all day compared to a facemask that you can buy to comply with regulations? Not having seen either (yet) this is a genuine question and not trying to be facetious.
I've used facemasks in an industrial environment and find them hugely uncomfortable for even a few minutes and they cause my glasses to steam up. Having had asthma as a child I don't find any face covering comfortable and do find breathing more difficult.

 

[adc82140]

But is there a difference between an NHS mask that is designed to be worn all day compared to a facemask that you can buy to comply with regulations? Not having seen either (yet) this is a genuine question and not trying to be facetious.
I've used facemasks in an industrial environment and find them hugely uncomfortable for even a few minutes and they cause my glasses to steam up. Having had asthma as a child I don't find any face covering comfortable and do find breathing more difficult.

I wear a surgical mask at work. Not one of the respirator types. The ones in an industrial environment are heavier duty, you wouldn't want to nor would you be required to wear one of those in a shop. The masks marketed that look like surgical masks are just thinner and crappier versions of the NHS ones. I've never worn a non surgical one because I carry a supply of surgical masks. Despite what the media say we're now drowning in them in the NHS, so the hospital are happy for us to take some for when we're out and about.

 

[scotrail158713]

Some day-long shopping trips can last for 8 hours, if not longer.

But does the mask need to be worn the whole time though? For example, I spent a couple of hours at Fort Kinnaird this morning - but going between shops I removed my covering as I was outside, so overall probably didn’t spend all that long with it on.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

But does the mask need to be worn the whole time though? For example, I spent a couple of hours at Fort Kinnaird this morning - but going between shops I removed my covering as I was outside, so overall probably didn’t spend all that long with it on.

As long as you washed your hands before lowering your covering, then washed them again before putting it back in place.

 

[Scrotnig]

Mask wearing does not lead to hypoxia. I have to wear one all day on a 12 hour nhs shift.

Your breathing is probably very good. Not everyone's is. Yet the concept of mask wearing seems to assume everyone's breathing is perfect. That's not the case.

 

[kylemore]

As long as you washed your hands before lowering your covering, then washed them again before putting it back in place.

I fiddle with mine all the time, holding it away from my nose to let me breath and to clear my glasses, with no handwashing in between.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

I fiddle with mine all the time, holding it away from my nose to let me breath and to clear my glasses, with no handwashing in between.

May I respectfully suggest you learn how to use a face covering or mask correctly and stay out of any shops until you have done so.

 

[Journeyman]

May I respectfully suggest you learn how to use a face covering or mask correctly and stay out of any shops until you have done so.

And may I respectfully point out that this is precisely why the whole compulsory masks thing is pointless, and likely to make things worse?

 

[bramling]

May I respectfully suggest you learn how to use a face covering or mask correctly and stay out of any shops until you have done so.

The same could be said for about 90% of mask users, based on observations in shops and on transport.

 

[westv]

When it comes to masks, I feel there's been a cover up.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

The same could be said for about 90% of mask users, based on observations in shops and on transport.

Indeed - if we are to continue with face coverings then we urgently need a high profile public information campaign on the correct use of them

I've seen a lot of poor practice with face coverings - mostly folk fiddling with them or not covering their nose properly
I've also seen folk wearing FFP2 masks with a vent. While this will protect the wearer it offers little or no protection to others as exhaled air does not get filtered and gets ejected as a plume either directly forward or to the side

I need to use various types of PPE at work and know full well that incorrect use of PPE can, at best, reduce it's effectiveness or actually increase the very risk you are mitigating (or introduce new hazards)

 

[adc82140]

Thank you. An incorrectly worn mask is more dangerous than no mask.

If they make it compulsory to wear face coverings in shops, it should also become illegal to wear the vent types if not using them for a specific authorised activity.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed - if we are to continue with face coverings then we urgently need a high profile public information campaign on the correct use of them

I've seen a lot of poor practice with face coverings - mostly folk fiddling with them or not covering their nose properly
I've also seen folk wearing FFP2 masks with a vent. While this will protect the wearer it offers little or no protection to others as exhaled air does not get filtered and gets ejected as a plume either directly forward or to the side

I need to use various types of PPE at work and know full well that incorrect use of PPE can, at best, reduce it's effectiveness or actually increase the very risk you are mitigating (or introduce new hazards)

Does anyone really expect an entire nation to use the masks the way professionals who use and are trained do?

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone really expect an entire nation to use the masks the way professionals who use and are trained do?

I'm not sure that asking people to make sure that the mask is covering their nose and mouth and to not use masks that have vents is a particularly extreme expectation. It's a lot simpler than many other things we expect from people.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not sure that asking people to make sure that the mask is covering their nose and mouth and to not use masks that have vents is a particularly extreme expectation. It's a lot simpler than many other things we expect from people.

Its not just the type, its touching it, moving it that the public are not all going to be able to avoid.

 

[Darandio]

I know plenty who would, ordinarily, happily spend hours on end in large shopping centres - and AFAIK face coverings are mandatory within the shopping centres, as well as the outlets inside. 8 hours is probably stretching it a bit, but wouldn't rule out 5 or 6 hours.

There is nothing stopping these serial shoppers popping outside for a break, it's common sense. Something that seems to be lacking not only in the general population but in this very thread. We need to weigh up this thread and other similar ones and compile a list of all of the excuses and nonsense, it would make a great bit of comical reading.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

There is nothing stopping these serial shoppers popping outside for a break, it's common sense. Something that seems to be lacking not only in the general population but in this very thread. We need to weigh up this thread and other similar ones and compile a list of all of the excuses and nonsense, it would make a great bit of comical reading.

Common sense? Well I never...

 

[takno]

Indeed - if we are to continue with face coverings then we urgently need a high profile public information campaign on the correct use of them

I've seen a lot of poor practice with face coverings - mostly folk fiddling with them or not covering their nose properly
I've also seen folk wearing FFP2 masks with a vent. While this will protect the wearer it offers little or no protection to others as exhaled air does not get filtered and gets ejected as a plume either directly forward or to the side

I need to use various types of PPE at work and know full well that incorrect use of PPE can, at best, reduce it's effectiveness or actually increase the very risk you are mitigating (or introduce new hazards)

I don't think people are constantly playing with them or leaving their nose uncovered because it's fun or it never occurred to them not to. They're doing that because that's what they need to do to avoid just ripping the things off. I'm all in favour of not continuing with face coverings anyway, but if we do I'm not sure a national campaign is sufficient - you might just have to tie peoples hands behind their backs as well

 

[ainsworth74]

Its not just the type, its touching it, moving it that the public are not all going to be able to avoid.

Again these are not complex instructions. Driving a car is a far more challenging skill to learn and yet millions of people throughout the UK have mastered it to at least an extent to manage day to day. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the instructions that go into wearing a face mask are so complex as to be impossible for a significant proportion of the population to understand? We've pretty much just laid them out here in two or three lines!

 

[Richard Scott]

Again these are not complex instructions. Driving a car is a far more challenging skill to learn and yet millions of people throughout the UK have mastered it to at least an extent to manage day to day. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the instructions that go into wearing a face mask are so complex as to be impossible for a significant proportion of the population to understand? We've pretty much just laid them out here in two or three lines!

Wearing them isn't hard I would think but would imagine they're uncomfortable hence the need to fiddle with them. A number of people I've seen wearing them fiddled with them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wearing them isn't hard I would think but would imagine they're uncomfortable hence the need to fiddle with them. A number of people I've seen wearing them fiddled with them.

Sure I don't deny that (and indeed I struggle with it to) but I'm just struggling to comprehend the idea that mask wearing is something that the majority of people won't be able to understand how to do properly. Complying with those instructions might be harder but actually ensuring people know what they are?!

 

[talldave]

That's the one thing I've noticed since the, sadly muzzled, return of F1. They're all constantly fiddling with their masks.

 

[bramling]

I don't think people are constantly playing with them or leaving their nose uncovered because it's fun or it never occurred to them not to. They're doing that because that's what they need to do to avoid just ripping the things off. I'm all in favour of not continuing with face coverings anyway, but if we do I'm not sure a national campaign is sufficient - you might just have to tie peoples hands behind their backs as well

This is clearly one of the reasons why the scientists weren’t overly keen on the idea. It’s like people who suffer from acne - despite being told a thousand times not to pick acne spots as it makes the problem worse, people seem hard-wired to do it.

Telling people “don’t fiddle with your mask” just won’t work. Likewise it’s interesting to hear masks always being referred to in the singular - the moment a mask is touched it should be quarantined and replaced, how many people are doing that in practice?

 

[Bantamzen]

Again these are not complex instructions. Driving a car is a far more challenging skill to learn and yet millions of people throughout the UK have mastered it to at least an extent to manage day to day. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the instructions that go into wearing a face mask are so complex as to be impossible for a significant proportion of the population to understand? We've pretty much just laid them out here in two or three lines!

The point I was making is that people will fiddle with masks, they will pull them down and up again, they will rest them around chins and necks. All the things professionals are taught not to do, and if they did to wash up and replace said mask ASAP. That isn't going to happen with the general public.

And it was for these reasons that the WHO for so long stuck to their guns, because using masks might actually increase the risk with the virus not being dispersed by air movement and its levels effectively diluted, instead being transferred to surfaces. Surfaces that the next mask fiddler's will touch and transfer back to their masks for inhalation. It could actually make things worse.

 

[Domh245]

That's the one thing I've noticed since the, sadly muzzled, return of F1. They're all constantly fiddling with their masks.

I think that is in no small part because whenever we see them, they are usually talking and so their masks are coming down their face uncovering their nose in the process, needing a 'pinch and pull' to bring it back up!