Failed Tea-Occ & MMI. Is it the end of a driving career?

[johnck]

Good Afternoon,

I initially failed the TEA-OCC in March 2018 & subsequently passed in November 2019. I then failed my MMI in November 2020 due to 1 example not meeting all the required criteria!

I'm aware this means I can never reapply with any of the TOC's but can anyone tell me if the FOC's, TFL or Trams use the same centrally stored results & the same "2 strikes" rule?

Any help or advice would be welcomed.

 

[Teddyward]

FOC use same results. By tfl do you mean mtr/ overground or the underground? Both mtr and overground will check your results, underground is different. Trams should be ok.

 

[JLX5]

Good Afternoon,

I initially failed the TEA-OCC in March 2018 & subsequently passed in November 2019. I then failed my MMI in November 2020 due to 1 example not meeting all the required criteria!

I'm aware this means I can never reapply with any of the TOC's but can anyone tell me if the FOC's, TFL or Trams use the same centrally stored results & the same "2 strikes" rule?

Any help or advice would be welcomed.

I'm certain that FOCs and TFL rail will also be included in this 2 strike system. However, with the trams, for most tram operators you will need to do psychometric assessments but there is no strike system in place and you can attempt them as many times if you fail usually after a 6 month wait between each attempt.

 

[johnck]

FOC use same results. By tfl do you mean mtr/ overground or the underground? Both mtr and overground will check your results, underground is different. Trams should be ok.

Yes MTR & Underground, as I think I'm correct in saying these are both operated by TFL? TBH I've NEVER even seen an advert for Trainee Underground Driver so I'm not holding out much hope there!!

 

[JLX5]

Yes MTR & Underground, as I think I'm correct in saying these are both operated by TFL? TBH I've NEVER even seen an advert for Trainee Underground Driver so I'm not holding out much hope there!!

MTR will use the same results. Underground is an interesting one, as far as I know, all driver vacancies are internally hired. I don't know when they last advertised externally for trainee driver but I'm willing to bet it was years and years ago.

 

[TheGoldfish]

Yes MTR & Underground, as I think I'm correct in saying these are both operated by TFL? TBH I've NEVER even seen an advert for Trainee Underground Driver so I'm not holding out much hope there!!

There was for TfL night tube a few years back ... I’m pretty sure, if memory serves .. there’s a thread in here about it where someone did an foi request on the recruitment ... there was something like 10,000 applications with just 3 externals bring successful ...so not much hope no ..

 

[johnck]

I'm certain that FOCs and TFL rail will also be included in this 2 strike system. However, with the trams, for most tram operators you will need to do psychometric assessments but there is no strike system in place and you can attempt them as many times if you fail usually after a 6 month wait between each attempt.

Thanks, thats kind of what I was expecting but I've been confused by whether the results were stored by the RSSB or by the OPC - thats partly why I asked whether TOC's & FOC's etc did things differently.

There was for TfL night tube a few years back ... I’m pretty sure, if memory serves .. there’s a thread in here about it where someone did an foi request on the recruitment ... there was something like 10,000 applications with just 3 externals bring successful ...so not much hope no ..

Yeah, I remember seeing that!! I stand corrected..I have ONCE seen a tube driver advert!!

 

[GB]

The psychometrics tests are industry standard so the two strike rule applies to both TOC and FOC.

 

[357]

London Underground do not use these tests, but Crossrail and Overground do.

LUL run their own testing system, as they are a metro and not a mainline operator.

 

[Jon1930]

I passed mmi 2nd time around and was told before hand that if I failed the mmi 2nd time I cant apply again unless the tests change in future. I think the mmi shouldn't count as a life but it is what it is. I would join the railway as a guard and who knows 10 years time they may change the assessments.

 

[ComUtoR]

I passed mmi 2nd time around and was told before hand that if I failed the mmi 2nd time I cant apply again unless the tests change in future. I think the mmi shouldn't count as a life but it is what it is. I would join the railway as a guard and who knows 10 years time they may change the assessments.

Why do you believe that the MMI should be excluded from the two strikes rule. It's part of the assessment process and is basically just another test you have to pass. The MMI isn't an interview for the job; thats what the DMI is for. You can have as many stabs at a DMI as you wish.

 

[66701GBRF]

Why do you believe that the MMI should be excluded from the two strikes rule. It's part of the assessment process and is basically just another test you have to pass. The MMI isn't an interview for the job; thats what the DMI is for. You can have as many stabs at a DMI as you wish.

The MMI is largely based on experiences. If you haven‘t got the necessary examples then it’s as good as impossible to pass, that doesn’t mean you can‘t or won’t have the required experience later on in life.

 

[choochoochoo]

Personally I believe MMI is too subjective. There is no black or white right or wrong. It's down to the opinion of a human being to determine whether you meet the criteria. So I'd agree that it's harsh to make it part of the 2 strike system. Especially when all you get back from the Test Centres is ambiguous feedback.

There was for TfL night tube a few years back ... I’m pretty sure, if memory serves .. there’s a thread in here about it where someone did an foi request on the recruitment ... there was something like 10,000 applications with just 3 externals bring successful ...so not much hope no ..

Wow, only 3 externals out of 10000 !! That makes me feel a whole lot better. I got rejected from them even though I'd passed all mainline psychometrics. I passed the LU testing stages but didn't get beyond the interview. So even if i interviewed stellarly, I think I'd have got a thanks but no thanks.

Good luck to the OP. Hopefully they change the tests again soon.

 

[SRH]

MTR will use the same results. Underground is an interesting one, as far as I know, all driver vacancies are internally hired. I don't know when they last advertised externally for trainee driver but I'm willing to bet it was years and years ago.

2008.. last external underground vacancies.

Which were then withdrawn halfway through the process due to the recession at that time..

 

[ComUtoR]

The MMI is largely based on experiences. If you haven‘t got the necessary examples then it’s as good as impossible to pass, that doesn’t mean you can‘t or won’t have the required experience later on in life.

Maybe/Maybe not. The "emergency question" certainly but judging from most of the posts regarding MMI failures; the candidates seem to interpret the questions wrong. I think this is a core issue with the MMI. Without digressing too far; it is more about how you answer, not what you answer.

Personally I believe MMI is too subjective. There is no black or white right or wrong. It's down to the opinion of a human being to determine whether you meet the criteria. .

They still have to mark it to specific criteria. I would agree its the most subjective part.

So I'd agree that it's harsh to make it part of the 2 strike system

Therefore it may as well not exist.

Especially when all you get back from the Test Centres is ambiguous feedback.

Yeah, this part is really bad. Very unprofessional tbh.

Good luck to the OP. Hopefully they change the tests again soon.

It's a 5yr cycle

 

[johnck]

London Underground do not use these tests, but Crossrail and Overground do.

LUL run their own testing system, as they are a metro and not a mainline operator.

LUL? Is that Arriva/London Overground?

 

[221129]

LUL? Is that Arriva/London Overground?

LUL is London Underground

 

[johnck]

Why do you believe that the MMI should be excluded from the two strikes rule. It's part of the assessment process and is basically just another test you have to pass. The MMI isn't an interview for the job; thats what the DMI is for. You can have as many stabs at a DMI as you wish.

I must admit, I find it odd that the DMI doesn't count when the psychometrics & mmi do. It would make more sense to me if you had no more than 2 attempts at the psychometrics, and then no more than 2 attempts at the MMI - but then I would say that in my situation!!

 

[ILoveLamp]

Defo agree with MMi being subjective. I sat one in September and it was a very unpleasant experience to be honest. I got the impression that whatever I said wouldn’t be good enough to the interviewer, I felt like I was continuously trying to dig myself out of a hole despite much preparation, loads of good examples from my work, reading all the posts on here for any help etc and a smooth and successful pass at the DMI beforehand. The lady that ran the tests and sat the MMI was stone-like and rather stand-off ish, yet when reading posts from others who sat the MMI with her afterwards commented on how they found it better than expected and how they were made to feel relaxed...not my experience at all, but many of those that were made to feel relaxed also fitted into the category that the TOC said in their advert they were trying to promote into the role. With the MMI being subjective, and no actual pass/fail number like say, group bourdon, one interviewer could pass or fail someone that another could score totally differently. Rather frustrating as it means you don’t really know what you are walking into for your second attempt (should you get one) unlike a ‘test’ that you can practice and prepare for. I asked for feedback on mine and it seems to have been ignored, so I have also no idea why they failed me at that point. Would I trust that particular TOC to pass me should I get a second, and last, bite at the cherry? Not a chance... On a positive note, it’s a new year in a few days, hopefully the paper tests and computer tests will stand me in good stead going forward, and I have more experience to take into any second test, fingers crossed.

 

[johnck]

The MMI is largely based on experiences. If you haven‘t got the necessary examples then it’s as good as impossible to pass, that doesn’t mean you can‘t or won’t have the required experience later on in life.

The frustrating thing is, the feedback I got said that 1 example relating to following rules & procedures, didn't meet all the required criteria - hence the failure.
Yet I gave railway specific examples to the other questions, which showed I follow R&P - and having been on the railway for 2yrs with no incidents, I clearly follow R&P every day.

 

[ComUtoR]

I must admit, I find it odd that the DMI doesn't count when the psychometrics & mmi do. It would make more sense to me if you had no more than 2 attempts at the psychometrics, and then no more than 2 attempts at the MMI - but then I would say that in my situation!!

The DMI (Driver Manager Interview) is about getting the actual job with your TOC and depot. The psychometric's are to meet industry standards so once passed, can be taken anywhere.

I wish you luck and please consider other options still within the industry; especially as many others gain valuable insight and experience for their further attempts.

 

[johnck]

Defo agree with MMi being subjective. I sat one in September and it was a very unpleasant experience to be honest. I got the impression that whatever I said wouldn’t be good enough to the interviewer, I felt like I was continuously trying to dig myself out of a hole despite much preparation, loads of good examples from my work, reading all the posts on here for any help etc and a smooth and successful pass at the DMI beforehand. The lady that ran the tests and sat the MMI was stone-like and rather stand-off ish, yet when reading posts from others who sat the MMI with her afterwards commented on how they found it better than expected and how they were made to feel relaxed...not my experience at all, but many of those that were made to feel relaxed also fitted into the category that the TOC said in their advert they were trying to promote into the role. With the MMI being subjective, and no actual pass/fail number like say, group bourdon, one interviewer could pass or fail someone that another could score totally differently. Rather frustrating as it means you don’t really know what you are walking into for your second attempt (should you get one) unlike a ‘test’ that you can practice and prepare for. I asked for feedback on mine and it seems to have been ignored, so I have also no idea why they failed me at that point. Would I trust that particular TOC to pass me should I get a second, and last, bite at the cherry? Not a chance... On a positive note, it’s a new year in a few days, hopefully the paper tests and computer tests will stand me in good stead going forward, and I have more experience to take into any second test, fingers crossed.

Yes, some of my colleagues that have passed said that they were asked to give another example if one was "weak". I wish I'd been extended the same privilege.
It's even worse being told I only narrowly missed out.. I'd rather have failed miserably

LUL is London Underground

Doh...sorry, I misread your initial post lol

 

[ILoveLamp]

Yes, some of my colleagues that have passed said that they were asked to give another example if one was "weak". I wish I'd been extended the same privilege.
It's even worse being told I only narrowly missed out.. I'd rather have failed miserably

Yeah, it’s annoying that there are those that had a different experience and possibly more favourabl. I wasn’t asked to give any different experiences either, and nearly 4 months ago I still have no feedback whatsoever. I wish you all the best moving forward, and like others have said, there may be some other roles you can apply for and get you into the railway, you never know where that may lead.

 

[johnck]

Personally I believe MMI is too subjective. There is no black or white right or wrong. It's down to the opinion of a human being to determine whether you meet the criteria. So I'd agree that it's harsh to make it part of the 2 strike system. Especially when all you get back from the Test Centres is ambiguous feedback.



Wow, only 3 externals out of 10000 !! That makes me feel a whole lot better. I got rejected from them even though I'd passed all mainline psychometrics. I passed the LU testing stages but didn't get beyond the interview. So even if i interviewed stellarly, I think I'd have got a thanks but no thanks.

Good luck to the OP. Hopefully they change the tests again soon.

Thank you. According to the RSSB there is no plan to, since they were last done in 2013

Yeah, it’s annoying that there are those that had a different experience and possibly more favourabl. I wasn’t asked to give any different experiences either, and nearly 4 months ago I still have no feedback whatsoever. I wish you all the best moving forward, and like others have said, there may be some other roles you can apply for and get you into the railway, you never know where that may lead.

I'm in already, but the sole purpose was to get a couple of years experience under my belt with the end goal of becoming a driver. I shall now try to think of a plan B?

The DMI (Driver Manager Interview) is about getting the actual job with your TOC and depot. The psychometric's are to meet industry standards so once passed, can be taken anywhere.

I wish you luck and please consider other options still within the industry; especially as many others gain valuable insight and experience for their further attempts.

Thank you. I shall certainly be looking to stay within the industry. Just not doing what I'm doing now!

Maybe/Maybe not. The "emergency question" certainly but judging from most of the posts regarding MMI failures; the candidates seem to interpret the questions wrong. I think this is a core issue with the MMI. Without digressing too far; it is more about how you answer, not what you answer.



They still have to mark it to specific criteria. I would agree its the most subjective part.



Therefore it may as well not exist.



Yeah, this part is really bad. Very unprofessional tbh.



It's a 5yr cycle

Last changed 7 years ago & no plans to change in the future (yet) according to the RSSB

 

[ComUtoR]

...I shall now try to think of a plan B?

On track plant/machines. Tampers, Railgrinders etc ?

 

[221129]

On track plant/machines. Tampers, Railgrinders etc ?

All need the same tests for driving.

 

[nom de guerre]

Maybe/Maybe not. The "emergency question" certainly but judging from most of the posts regarding MMI failures; the candidates seem to interpret the questions wrong. I think this is a core issue with the MMI. Without digressing too far; it is more about how you answer, not what you answer.

I was failed on the MMI 'emergency question' way back when - long ago enough that my strikes have been reset since - and remain mystified as to how they reached that conclusion.

The question was simply, 'Tell me about a time you've dealt with an emergency situation'. I answered with a textbook (and true!) example, only for the interviewer to suddenly switch into full Paxman mode and start micro-questioning every detail, before informing me that my answer "wasn't good enough". She then asked me if I had another example - I replied that I didn't. That, apparently, constituted a fail.

Perhaps she was deliberately trying to rattle me and the way I responded to that was actually the important part, i.e. 'Let's see how he copes under pressure'. But I didn't suddenly dissolve into a gibbering mess - I remained relatively calm and restated my position. How else was I supposed to respond?

That was nearly 15 years ago and although I've been happily working as a signaller for the past decade, and no longer have any aspirations to be a driver, that unjustness of that decision still rankles. It remains the only important railway industry interview that I've ever 'failed'.

 

[ComUtoR]

My emergency situation was refused too, and so was the second one, and then the interviewer said that if I didn't have an example then the interview would end. I didn't know about any strikes rule until one of the other candidates told me that she failed previously because she didn't have an emergency situation. I still look back on that whole experience and believe that the lack of foresight was an advantage.

Failure is unpleasant for everyone but its part and parcel of a very competitive jobs market. The assessment process is kinda harsh but its critical to ensure a fair process for all and to ensure those that do pass can make it through the entire process and help contribute to a safe railway.

 

[MatthewLdn]

I’d be very interested to know what particular emergency situations they would possibly refuse. I’m currently waiting to sit my mmi, and I’m planning to use a time in which I had to evacuate customers from a store I worked at due to a fire alarm.

 

[nom de guerre]

My emergency situation was refused too, and so was the second one, and then the interviewer said that if I didn't have an example then the interview would end. I didn't know about any strikes rule until one of the other candidates told me that she failed previously because she didn't have an emergency situation. I still look back on that whole experience and believe that the lack of foresight was an advantage.

Failure is unpleasant for everyone but its part and parcel of a very competitive jobs market. The assessment process is kinda harsh but its critical to ensure a fair process for all and to ensure those that do pass can make it through the entire process and help contribute to a safe railway.

So were you failed on that part first time round? And if so, what, if anything, did you do differently next time (if you were asked another 'emergency' question)?

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your second paragraph, but there's a difference between "harsh" and simply plain unfair. It wasn't as if I didn't have an example; I provided a textbook (and real) one. How can it be fair to class that as a fail?

It's not failure that I mind - it's being deemed a failure for something that, objectively, is nothing of the sort, and then not being given any explanatory feedback beyond: 'Your answer did not meet the required standard'. Yes, it's a competitive job market, but no explanation? No feedback? If you're rejecting a valid answer as somehow invalid, should you not have to provide at least some reasoning?

As mentioned above, I've been a signaller now for almost a decade and have dealt with thousands of safety-related situations during that time. I'm pleased to say my disciplinary record remains clean. So, based on that, and my interview record in general, the MMI 'failure' detailed above remains very much an outlier. Although I no longer want to be a driver, I'm almost tempted to try to go through the process again just to right what I perceive to be an egregious wrong!

I’d be very interested to know what particular emergency situations they would possibly refuse. I’m currently waiting to sit my mmi, and I’m planning to use a time in which I had to evacuate customers from a store I worked at due to a fire alarm.

My rejected example was fairly similar: I led the evacuation when the student flat I was living in caught fire in the middle of the night.