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Failed train Twyford 2330 hrs Sunday 21st November

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DanNCL

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Skates being kept in Edinburgh isn't a new issue. Earlier in the year an LNER 800 was stuck at Stevenage for a few days with a near identical issue, likewise a 91 with a seized axle at Wakefield Westgate also took a while to move a few months ago because of where the skates are kept. The skates are normally kept by DB at Millerhill, and have to be transported by DB to the site whenever they're needed. I'm pretty certain the skates are not specific to the 80xs (though no doubt Hitachi will be making it more awkward, like they do with many other aspects of the operation of the 80x units), but rather used for a variety of stock.
 
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800001

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Skates being kept in Edinburgh isn't a new issue. Earlier in the year an LNER 800 was stuck at Stevenage for a few days with a near identical issue, likewise a 91 with a seized axle at Wakefield Westgate also took a while to move a few months ago because of where the skates are kept. The skates are normally kept by DB at Millerhill, and have to be transported by DB to the site whenever they're needed. I'm pretty certain the skates are not specific to the 80xs (though no doubt Hitachi will be making it more awkward, like they do with many other aspects of the operation of the 80x units), but rather used for a variety of stock.
The contract for all trains to be skated on mainline is with DB, Hitachi don't make it awkward, they want train recovering as quick as possible.
The delay at Hitchin initially caused die to the skating team were out of hours
 

43096

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The contract for all trains to be skated on mainline is with DB, Hitachi don't make it awkward, they want train recovering as quick as possible.
The delay at Hitchin initially caused die to the skating team were out of hours
Torvill and Dean?
 

DanNCL

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The contract for all trains to be skated on mainline is with DB, Hitachi don't make it awkward, they want train recovering as quick as possible.
The delay at Hitchin initially caused die to the skating team were out of hours
By Hitachi making it awkward I was more referring to the apparent inability to use the skates that Hitachi keep at Ashford to move the unit near Twyford. Regarding the specifics of the Stevenage case, out of hours the team may well have been, but even out of hours they’d still have got there quicker from somewhere in the South East than they did from Edinburgh.

Given that almost every time a Hitachi unit is stranded somewhere it takes longer to recover than anything else, one does have to wonder how much help Hitachi actually are in these situations with their own trains which through Agility they maintain some responsibility for.
 

800001

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By Hitachi making it awkward I was more referring to the apparent inability to use the skates that Hitachi keep at Ashford to move the unit near Twyford. Regarding the specifics of the Stevenage case, out of hours the team may well have been, but even out of hours they’d still have got there quicker from somewhere in the South East than they did from Edinburgh.

Given that almost every time a Hitachi unit is stranded somewhere it takes longer to recover than anything else, one does have to wonder how much help Hitachi actually are in these situations with their own trains which through Agility they maintain some responsibility for.
I believe there is only 2 DB teams to do skating. They are the company responsible for skating the train, not Hitachi. All TOCs and FOCs pay in to a put for DB to provide skate and recovery.

It's irrelevant who owns the train or which company operates. It is DB who do the recovery.
 

aleggatta

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The contract for all trains to be skated on mainline is with DB, Hitachi don't make it awkward, they want train recovering as quick as possible.
The delay at Hitchin initially caused die to the skating team were out of hours

I believe there is only 2 DB teams to do skating. They are the company responsible for skating the train, not Hitachi. All TOCs and FOCs pay in to a put for DB to provide skate and recovery.

It's irrelevant who owns the train or which company operates. It is DB who do the recovery.

This puzzles me - as at Southern we had our own skates and did our own skate jobs on the main line... Although I have a feeling things changed after the 377 that derailed took out a line at brighton for over a day with skates 100 yards away that couldn't be used as they weren't DB's
 

Falcon1200

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All TOCs and FOCs pay in to a put for DB to provide skate and recovery.

Things have clearly changed since I retired 5 years ago ! In my day it was the duty of the owning TOC to arrange wheelskates for a disabled train (such incidents being classed as a train failure), and while providing the skates was not usually a problem, supplying staff for protection duties was, this often came back to us in Network Rail to arrange on the TOC's behalf. It does seem bizarre that in this case the skates had to come from hundreds of miles away, but it made no difference to the unfortunate passengers on the stuck train. I have never known people to be left on a train until skates could be fitted and the train moved; They would always be rescued long before that could happen.
 

Surreytraveller

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Things have clearly changed since I retired 5 years ago ! In my day it was the duty of the owning TOC to arrange wheelskates for a disabled train (such incidents being classed as a train failure), and while providing the skates was not usually a problem, supplying staff for protection duties was, this often came back to us in Network Rail to arrange on the TOC's behalf. It does seem bizarre that in this case the skates had to come from hundreds of miles away, but it made no difference to the unfortunate passengers on the stuck train. I have never known people to be left on a train until skates could be fitted and the train moved; They would always be rescued long before that could happen.
I thought the passengers were removed? They're not going to leave them on there for that length of time
 

Horizon22

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I thought the passengers were removed? They're not going to leave them on there for that length of time

They were - a service pulled alongside on the Down Main and passengers were evacuated across at around 0130-0200
 

Falcon1200

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I thought the passengers were removed?

They were !

They're not going to leave them on there for that length of time

Which is what I said; 'it made no difference to the unfortunate passengers on the stuck train'. However it appeared to be implied earlier in the thread that not having skates nearby showed the railway's contempt for passengers on stranded trains, ie presuming that they were not rescued earlier, which was not of course the case.
 

43055

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I believe there is only 2 DB teams to do skating. They are the company responsible for skating the train, not Hitachi. All TOCs and FOCs pay in to a put for DB to provide skate and recovery.

It's irrelevant who owns the train or which company operates. It is DB who do the recovery.
Don't believe this is the case as EMR skated one of there own 158's (158854) in platform 7 at Sheffield in January 2020.
 

800001

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Don't believe this is the case as EMR skated one of there own 158's (158854) in platform 7 at Sheffield in January 2020.
Can only go with what I'm told when company i work for was organising for a unit to be skated.
 

millemille

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I believe it is up to each operator as to how they choose to carry out rolling stock recovery, either doing it themselves or subbing it to DB.

I would guess the decision is largely driven by how large an operator they are, and how large a patch they operate over.

When I was at Southeastern we had our own recovery gang, based at Gillingham and staffed by Gillingham depot staff, who did all rerailing and skating with their own equipment.

But with 320 trains in service every day the gang were called out on, on average, a couple of times a week. And they could get to anywhere on the patch in 2 hours or less.

I know that on at least one occasion our gang got asked to deal with a freight derailment on our patch because the DB gang were hours away or already on another shout, but they declined as our lifting gear was designed for much lighter EMU's and they didn't have the stock knowledge to be competent to lift the freight stock.
 

Horizon22

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I believe it is up to each operator as to how they choose to carry out rolling stock recovery, either doing it themselves or subbing it to DB.

I would guess the decision is largely driven by how large an operator they are, and how large a patch they operate over.

When I was at Southeastern we had our own recovery gang, based at Gillingham and staffed by Gillingham depot staff, who did all rerailing and skating with their own equipment.

But with 320 trains in service every day the gang were called out on, on average, a couple of times a week. And they could get to anywhere on the patch in 2 hours or less.

I know that on at least one occasion our gang got asked to deal with a freight derailment on our patch because the DB gang were hours away or already on another shout, but they declined as our lifting gear was designed for much lighter EMU's and they didn't have the stock knowledge to be competent to lift the freight stock.

Are you sure you don't mean a year? I don't think there's 100 derailments and skating moves a year!
 

millemille

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Are you sure you don't mean a year? I don't think there's 100 derailments and skating moves a year!
No, I mean a week (on average).

There are, or at least were when I was an on call Fleet Technical Officer (FTO) about 6 or 7 years ago, a significant number of low speed derailments in yards. 3 in 10 days at one large yard on one occasion.

All different causes.

Incidents that happen on yards and sidings don't always make the "news" if they don't impact service delivery and don't require RAIB or ORR investigation.

They don't all require the full "battle rattle" to get the train back on the track, some can simply be driven back on where as others may require the full lift and traverse and possibly a skate move back to a maintenance location for examination and repair.
 
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JN114

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Are you sure you don't mean a year? I don't think there's 100 derailments and skating moves a year!

Also presumably not every one of those 100 shouts a year is a derailment - there’s plenty of reasons to need to skate a train
 
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Are you sure you don't mean a year? I don't think there's 100 derailments and skating moves a year!
They can also be called out multiple times for the same movement. My employer for example, called the BRUFF team out to assess an axle for the need for a skate; they then came back the next day and fitted the skate once the OLE isolation had been arranged. The unit moved within the depot to release a trapped unit at the buffers. They then removed the skate and left the depot. They then came back 2 weeks later and refitted the skate to allow the movement to major depot for repairs; removing said skate again once arrived into the maintenance shed. You can soon see how 100 call outs a year is possible.
 

Dr_Paul

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I've not heard of a wheel skate before reading this thread. How do they work; are they a frame with jockey wheels that fits under the bogie with the seized wheels, which is jacked up to allow the frame to be inserted under it?
 

Horizon22

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They can also be called out multiple times for the same movement. My employer for example, called the BRUFF team out to assess an axle for the need for a skate; they then came back the next day and fitted the skate once the OLE isolation had been arranged. The unit moved within the depot to release a trapped unit at the buffers. They then removed the skate and left the depot. They then came back 2 weeks later and refitted the skate to allow the movement to major depot for repairs; removing said skate again once arrived into the maintenance shed. You can soon see how 100 call outs a year is possible.

I can, but I found it unlikely it would be 100 just for one TOC but perhaps it is. I was more thinking of skates required on the mainline which is rather rare.
 
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I've not heard of a wheel skate before reading this thread. How do they work; are they a frame with jockey wheels that fits under the bogie with the seized wheels, which is jacked up to allow the frame to be inserted under it?
If you Google it there are loads of examples.
 

43096

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Yes, I should have done that. There's an example of what I'd imagined one to be here under the heading '175 005 gets its skates on'.
RailAdventure have taken the idea a step further with its "LocoBuggy" system which allows movement of vehicles with different gauges. For example they are used for delivery of broad gauge Vectrons from Siemens' factory in Munich to port for shipment to Finland.
 

XAM2175

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RailAdventure have taken the idea a step further with its "LocoBuggy" system which allows movement of vehicles with different gauges. For example they are used for delivery of broad gauge Vectrons from Siemens' factory in Munich to port for shipment to Finland.
That's a fantastically ingenious bit of kit!
 

millemille

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I can, but I found it unlikely it would be 100 just for one TOC but perhaps it is. I was more thinking of skates required on the mainline which is rather rare.
At no point did I say there were 100 skate call outs, those are your words.

I said there was a gang who did rerailing and skating and they were called out on average twice a week for rerailing or skating.
 

Horizon22

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At no point did I say there were 100 skate call outs, those are your words.

I said there was a gang who did rerailing and skating and they were called out on average twice a week for rerailing or skating.

Twice a week = 104 (2x52). The "call outs" seemed to imply an activity was taking place, although that is evidently not the case.
 

david1212

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That's a fantastically ingenious bit of kit!
Indeed. The obvious downside is the increased height which is a bigger issue in the UK than much of Europe.


Edinburgh just does not seem a logical place to keep wheel skates needed for an incident anywhere on the network. I would choose somewhere reasonably network cenral e.g. Crewe, Derby, Doncaster, York.
 

Rambler2978

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I've not heard of a wheel skate before reading this thread. How do they work; are they a frame with jockey wheels that fits under the bogie with the seized wheels, which is jacked up to allow the frame to be inserted under it?
I also have never heard of skates in relation to trains! It seems from reading the posts that they are used when a train derails. Still not quite clear to me! Has any one got a photo of one in operation??
 

millemille

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46539080905_18e2fc4828_b.jpg


The axle is lifted by jacks so that the wheels are clear of the rail and the jacks are supporting the weight of the vehicle, then the skate is assembled around the wheels and the side plates are clamped against the front and back of the wheel and then the jacks are lowered and the skate is now taking the weight of the vehicle. The train can now move, very slowly, with the small wheels of the skate running on the rail and the axle of the train not rotating.

Skates are used where the wheel, primary suspension, axle bearings etc. are damaged or are suspected of being damaged and the risk of driving the train normally, even at reduced speed, to a repair location is too great.

When I was an on-call FTO I'd attend incidents like this - a derailment on points in a yard - several times in each turn on the roster and that's without operating incidents on the line..

img00054201302221249.jpg


img00055201302221257.jpg
 
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