Failure to Pay - Manchester *RESOLVED*

[Sophie Anthony]

Good evening,

I was travelling with my sister to a manchester uni open day. I am 19 she is 17.
We had a train at 11:00 at cheadle hulme but got there at 10:58 and had to run to get on board, as in normal circumstances I would use the ticket machine but it was broken and I was running out of time as we were meeting some people there and so I hoped a conductor would be on the train. So we got on the train for Manchester Piccadilly.

The conductor walked up and down and I tried to wave him over as I wasn't even halfway through the journey, even saying "excuse me" however he seemed very busy and didn't approach me or my sister.

I also have a trainline app but I couldn't buy a ticket as I ran out of mobile data.

We got off at Manchester and I asked a conductor where I could purchase a ticket and I was waved to a booth, this is when I did something incredibly stupid and said I got on at levenshulme. I don't know why, it was incredibly stupid and I was pulled aside.

I was asked if I was over 18 and said yes, my sister said she wasn't and was taken to purchase a ticket.

A woman asked me how old I was and I said I was 19, and was promptly accused of lying about my age which was ridiculous as this was the first time I was asked for a specific age. She was incredibly adament that I lied and I will appeal if more action is taken against her.

I have mental illness so I get flustered when I'm stressed, she asked me to state my sister's birthday and I accidentally got the wrong year, she then told me I lied about her age too however didn't give me a minute to calm down and fired insult after insult - that I was a fraud and a liar. Very unnecessary and somewhat true. I needed a moment and she prompted me again for her birthday so I gave her the right year with the same day and month and was told I lied again. I cannot stress enough how awful and unprofessional she was, I said I was sorry, the woman scoffed and promptly told "shut up. do you want me to call the police or are you going to shut up?" Obviously I didn't know how serious she was about that so I stopped talking.

Everytime I tried to talk she would tell me to shut up. Only when she asked me different questions was I allowed to speak.

I gave my correct details and tried to comfort my sister who got stressed out saying it was fine. Obviously I wasn't referring to the situation however she kept cutting in telling me I was a liar and a fraud and that I was going to get a criminal record for this. I understand that I wrongfully said levenshulme but I tried to get a ticket nonetheless!! She only needed to tell me exactly what was wrong with that I did once, I am fully capable of understanding but she made me stay an extra ten minutes and spent the better part of it telling me how I'm a criminal and a liar and a fraud. I couldnt speak without being told to shut up, even I when I didn't speak I was being glared at, and it was insult after insult. An idiot could see I was upset and scared and she still continued to insult me!!

I know what I did was wrong, I had every intention of buying a ticket until I stupidly got to the barrier. She kept saying she would send a failure to pay letter and I just wanted to know what the general protocol was.

The whole situation is due to the fact I stated the wrong station when trying to buy a ticket, i have a feeling she is going to try and make a huge thing out of this. I asked her if there was someone I could speak to as I wanted to complain about the treatment I got, as I was nearly reduced to tears by her conduct. She told me "why? I've done nothing wrong, you've done all the wrong. Go"

I understand what I did was wrong, I know people know this forum love to lecture me about this stuff but please just save it, my sister will only get a letter to my mum and nothing else as she is under 18. I have no idea what is going to happen to me, I wanted to apply to university this year and have no idea how this will affect me. I pray that it's a fine and I know I won't state the wrong station again, I was just stressed out that I didn't buy a ticket and stupidly said that instead. I couldn't even defend myself on that note because I was constantly being interrupted and called a liar, I wasn't even allowed to speak to anyone else because I was some kind of criminal. I'm just extremely scared and upset by what happened. Im even more upset at myself.

Please just help me out. I stated the wrong station when trying to buy a ticket, am I going to end up in prison like the woman said?

 

[cuccir]

Right, well first of all, you're not going to prison. That is only happens to people with very long criminal records.

The most likely outcome is that Northern Rail will send you a £80 'penalty fare', which if you pay then the matter is closed.

They may not do this if you've already had one before, or if you were particularly awkward/rude when interviewed.

If they don't send a penalty fare, they will likely write to you asking for your side of the story. This will give you the chance to apologize and negotiate an out of court settlement.

Only if that doesn't work would they try an prosecute you. This would likely be successful, and would result in a fine in the low hundreds and a criminal record that would last 1 year only, except for 'enhanced' DBS checks - needed for eg nursing, the police. And even then, it wouldn't rule out these careers if you were applying a long time after the conviction.

Most like though is the £80 penalty fare.

I don't know if UCAS applications ask for criminal records, but even if you were convicted, I doubt a university would be too bothered if this was the extent of your record, so it is unlikely to affect this.

 

[6Gman]

Firstly, you will not end up in prison for a one-off offence like this.

Wait for a letter to arrive and then come back on here. Until Northern decide how they want to proceed then it's difficult to say what your options are.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I follow the advice above. This is your best bet.

If you wish, you could make a complaint about the member of staff at Piccadilly as a separate matter (this won't make your situation in your favour, hence my suggestion of taking it up as a separate matter). Seems like she was on some sort of power trip and quite frankly if going from your account her behaviour was unnecessary and over the top.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

I follow the advice above. This is your best bet.

If you wish, you could make a complaint about the member of staff at Piccadilly as a separate matter (this won't make your situation in your favour, hence my suggestion of taking it up as a separate matter). Seems like she was on some sort of power trip and quite frankly if going from your account her behaviour was unnecessary and over the top.

I'm just going to wait. I don't exaggerate stuff like this, it was horrific. I work in customer services and even with abusive customers I have to stay professional and impersonal. As soon as the letter comes I'm going to complain as I want it to be dealt with separately, bullying isn't part of a revenue protection officers job description.

 

[gray1404]

Definitely complain about the woman now to customer services, you don't need to wait for their letter. Include a full description of her. If their reply is not satisfactory appeal the matter to Transport Focus.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

UCAS does not ask for details of criminal convictions. For courses where there is an element of work based training with 'vulnerable' groups, for example teaching, medical or social work roles, an enhanced DBS will be part of the enrolement process

 

[Gareth Marston]

Irrespective of the status of the TVM or the alleged behaviour of staff at Piccadily. Cheadle Hulme station has a manned booking office which is open 7 days a week at 1100. Why didn't the OP just get tickets from there?

On the one hand the OP is saying the TVM was out of order but they also tuned up late, so how did they have time to find this out?

 

[sheff1]

On the one hand the OP is saying the TVM was out of order but they also tuned up late, so how did they have time to find this out?

If, when arriving at 1058, the TVM had a screen showing "Out of Order" a couple of seconds would be enough to spot that. Whether there would have been enough time to buy a ticket if the TVM had been working is another matter entirely.

 

[6Gman]

There seem to be several different issues here:

1. The OP "cut it fine" at the station and failed to buy a ticket in advance of travel which - given there is a ticket office - is an offence.
2. The OP reports that the Guard failed to respond to her efforts to pay - which is unusual in my experience, but possible.
3. The OP had no data for her app (I don't claim to know what that means ) but it presumably means she was unable to buy on-board.
4. On arrival at Piccadilly she "short-fared" by claiming to have travelled from a nearer station - a very bad move since it shows clear intent to avoid the correct fare.
5. The revenue protection person was (allegedly) very rude.

Now, my understanding is that #1 constitutes a byelaw offence, #2 and #3 do not negate that offence, #4 moves the offence potentially into RoRA territory, which is more serious, and that #5, whilst irrelevant to any offences, should be the subject of a separate customer service complaint.

That said, I'm not sure what advice the OP is seeking.

 

[6Gman]

If, when arriving at 1058, the TVM had a screen showing "Out of Order" a couple of seconds would be enough to spot that. Whether there would have been enough time to buy a ticket if the TVM had been working is another matter entirely.

Worth pointing out that the layout at Cheadle Hulme is a little complicated as a junction station. The

If, when arriving at 1058, the TVM had a screen showing "Out of Order" a couple of seconds would be enough to spot that. Whether there would have been enough time to buy a ticket if the TVM had been working is another matter entirely.

The layout at Cheadle Hulme is a little complicated as a junction station - the booking office is at the entrance to Platforms 2 & 3 (Up Crewe and Down Macclesfield) with separate entrances to Platform 1 (Down Crewe) and Platform 4 (Up Macc). The 1100 goes from Platform 1 which does not involve passing the booking office (though that obviously doesn't absolve a passenger from visiting). I cannot recall the location of any TVMs at Cheadle Hulme - can anyone report where they are?

 

[Stuwhu]

Worth pointing out that the layout at Cheadle Hulme is a little complicated as a junction station. The


The layout at Cheadle Hulme is a little complicated as a junction station - the booking office is at the entrance to Platforms 2 & 3 (Up Crewe and Down Macclesfield) with separate entrances to Platform 1 (Down Crewe) and Platform 4 (Up Macc). The 1100 goes from Platform 1 which does not involve passing the booking office (though that obviously doesn't absolve a passenger from visiting). I cannot recall the location of any TVMs at Cheadle Hulme - can anyone report where they are?

I think the TVM is at the entrance to Platform 4 (For trains to Macclesfield)

 

[6Gman]

I think the TVM is at the entrance to Platform 4 (For trains to Macclesfield)

Is that the only TVM? If so, the OP's version of events would be odd.

 

[Stuwhu]

If she had driven to the station, she may have gone past the TVM at the entrance near the car park and then gone over the bridge to the platform. I've not been to the station for a few months, there was only 1 TVM last time I was there.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Irrespective of the status of the TVM or the alleged behaviour of staff at Piccadily. Cheadle Hulme station has a manned booking office which is open 7 days a week at 1100. Why didn't the OP just get tickets from there?

On the one hand the OP is saying the TVM was out of order but they also tuned up late, so how did they have time to find this out?

There are two entrances, one passes a ticket machine and another passes a booking office, I normally use the ticket machine and so I went that way, only to find it wasn't working and I didn't have time to go to the booking office to get tickets. I think I made it clear that I tried to get tickets multiple times.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

I think the TVM is at the entrance to Platform 4 (For trains to Macclesfield)

I was driven there which is why I went through that entrance, the ticket machine being in the carpark is an added bonus because it meant I could just get the tickets on the way in.

 

[6Gman]

There are two entrances, one passes a ticket machine and another passes a booking office, I normally use the ticket machine and so I went that way, only to find it wasn't working and I didn't have time to go to the booking office to get tickets. I think I made it clear that I tried to get tickets multiple times.

Aren't there three entrances? To Platform 4 on the car park (east) side, to Platforms 2/3 between the two bridges (and where the booking office is), and to Platfiorm 1 on the west side (and from which your train departed)?

Of course this is irrelevant to the main problem you have which is the attempt to short fare.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Okay so I see half the people on here like to lecture me on the fact that me trying to buy a ticket from levenshulme was an offence. I'm absolutely aware of that and I do not need to be told that again. Please, don't wallow in the anxiety of others it is not nice. Questioning my version of events is pointless as I have told it exactly how it happened.

The train station has a ticket machine at the car park which I got to with little amount of time due to getting out of the house late, fantastically placed so you can buy your tickets on the way in and never had an error until that day. If there was CCTV then I would be filmed approaching it and walking off when noticing the message. The train was approaching soon and trains are infrequent from cheadle Hulme so I decided to board. I use a Trainline App and that day had no mobile data which is why I couldn't purchase tickets online, and please don't say "why don't you purchase the day before" as normally I don't plan which train exactly to take unless before work because if I would have booked a train and ran late like I did that day I would have missed it, which is why I tried the ticket machine.

The woman's behaviour is a separate matter, I waited until I calmed down to write this post so I could be as objective as possible. I still believe I recieved unprofessional treatment and will complain as soon as this matter is dealt with.

I will return when I receive the letter, I am hoping for a penalty fine as I did try to get tickets, from a machine and from a conductor who I cannot STRESS enough I tried to get the attention of, with hand gestures and eventually an "excuse me". I would like the cross examining to end over that thank you. My mistake was I stated levenshulme and not cheadle hulme which I regret completely.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Aren't there three entrances? To Platform 4 on the car park (east) side, to Platforms 2/3 between the two bridges (and where the booking office is), and to Platfiorm 1 on the west side (and from which your train departed)?

Of course this is irrelevant to the main problem you have which is the attempt to short fare.

Yeah I forgot, one that leads out to the P5 pub but I rarely use that one as an entrance as I normally arrive from the car park. Not sure why that's relevent.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

I will post again as soon as I receive the letter, thank you everyone for your replies and advice.

 

[6Gman]

The train was approaching soon and trains are infrequent from cheadle Hulme so I decided to board.

Wasn't there another train 20 minutes later?

These are the sort of questions you will be asked.

 

[6Gman]

Yeah I forgot, one that leads out to the P5 pub but I rarely use that one as an entrance as I normally arrive from the car park. Not sure why that's relevent.

Isn't that the only way of getting to Platform 1?

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Wasn't there another train 20 minutes later?

These are the sort of questions you will be asked.

Asked where? There's one that comes at 24 minutes past but I didn't want to wait again having only just caught this one. I was rushing and my friends I was meeting there took a much earlier train so I didn't want them to wait for ages either

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Isn't that the only way of getting to Platform 1?

No. You can go through all the entrances into platform one. I prefer the carpark entrance, it has the ticket machine. Also the second entrance doesn't exactly have a designated car park

 

[Sophie Anthony]

So I can concentrate on my a level mock exams and university applications (great timing, all thanks to me being an idiot) I will not be replying to the thread or watching it for the time being. Thanks for your help, I'll come back as soon as the letter arrives and let you all know what it says, I hope in future this thread is informational to others as I never found much information on short faring myself.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yeah I forgot, one that leads out to the P5 pub but I rarely use that one as an entrance as I normally arrive from the car park. Not sure why that's relevent.

Hi Sophie the collective brains on the forum are exploring whether your story stacks up which it appears to. A lt of people post things trying to make things look better for them and this usually falls apart when questioned.As 6g man has said your biggest issue is that you choose to say you got on at Levenshulme and whatever your opinion of how the staff member behaved she was totally in the right to call you out for it and report. If they give you the opportunity to pay the penalty fare my advice is take it and be thankful they haven't gone for the short faring offence.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

If, when arriving at 1058, the TVM had a screen showing "Out of Order" a couple of seconds would be enough to spot that. Whether there would have been enough time to buy a ticket if the TVM had been working is another matter entirely.

Also just to let you know, the machine is on the way in and I had a few minutes to buy the tickets and get on the platform. Its in the car park you get dropped off and next to some stairs you can go up towards your chosen platform. Pick the tickets, pop the card and pin in and out come some tickets, you then grab the tickets and make your way to a platform.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Hi Sophie the collective brains on the forum are exploring whether your story stacks up which it appears to. A lt of people post things trying to make things look better for them and this usually falls apart when questioned.As 6g man has said your biggest issue is that you choose to say you got on at Levenshulme and whatever your opinion of how the staff member behaved she was totally in the right to call you out for it and report. If they give you the opportunity to pay the penalty fare my advice is take it and be thankful they haven't gone for the short faring offence.

Thank you. I'll let you know what they write to me in a couple of weeks time.

 

[6Gman]

Good evening,

I have mental illness so I get flustered when I'm stressed, she asked me to state my sister's birthday and I accidentally got the wrong year, she then told me I lied about her age too however didn't give me a minute to calm down and fired insult after insult - that I was a fraud and a liar. Very unnecessary and somewhat true. I needed a moment and she prompted me again for her birthday so I gave her the right year with the same day and month and was told I lied again. I cannot stress enough how awful and unprofessional she was, I said I was sorry, the woman scoffed and promptly told "shut up. do you want me to call the police or are you going to shut up?" Obviously I didn't know how serious she was about that so I stopped talking.

Please just help me out. I stated the wrong station when trying to buy a ticket, am I going to end up in prison like the woman said?

When you receive your letter, and depending on how they choose to take this forward, it may be helpful if you could get your GP, Consultant or CPN to write a letter outlining how your condition might affect you under pressure.

 

[323235]

There seem to be several different issues here:

1. The OP "cut it fine" at the station and failed to buy a ticket in advance of travel which - given there is a ticket office - is an offence.
2. The OP reports that the Guard failed to respond to her efforts to pay - which is unusual in my experience, but possible.
3. The OP had no data for her app (I don't claim to know what that means ) but it presumably means she was unable to buy on-board.
4. On arrival at Piccadilly she "short-fared" by claiming to have travelled from a nearer station - a very bad move since it shows clear intent to avoid the correct fare.
5. The revenue protection person was (allegedly) very rude.

Now, my understanding is that #1 constitutes a byelaw offence, #2 and #3 do not negate that offence, #4 moves the offence potentially into RoRA territory, which is more serious, and that #5, whilst irrelevant to any offences, should be the subject of a separate customer service complaint.

That said, I'm not sure what advice the OP is seeking.

In response to number 2 I've had a number of experiences of trying to get guards attention unsuccessfully by shouting them back as I walk past and don't look in my direction however personally speaking if I hadn't bought before boarding I would be walking after them to catch up with them.

In response to point 3 you have to buy before boarding when using an app as they take 15 and guards shouldn't accept them if they have been bought too late.