Failure to Pay Penalty Charge

[saltthrow]

Hi all,

Currently terrified!

I travelled from New Southgate to Hatfield on Sunday 26th of May. I tapped in with my bank card at the Oyster station on the platform. I travelled with a Londoner who said they did the same route the year before without issue. I was not trying to avoid a charge, I 'tapped in' at New Southgate thinking I could get to Hatfield and tap out there. I have never dodged a fare ever.

The journey should have been £3.90 for an off peak return. I have a £8.40 charge from TfL from that day (although it came out of my account today).

As there was a day festival on in Hatfield, the station was heaving. There was a lot of commotion and confusion in the station as The Great Northern staff were not letting people through the barriers. It was not explained why people were not being let through, staff just said 'just pay, just pay'. I didn't pay because there was absolutely no explanation about why I should. There was a day festival taking place, and the station was heaving with people also questioning the £20 charge to get through the gates.

The refusal to pay form was made out to be like some sort of complaints procedure, with no explanation of the potential consequences (the right to silence was read by the member of staff).

After the next train from London arrived, they opened the turnstiles and started letting everyone through and were not checking tickets at all. This was once we had already filled out the form.

Were not explained that this could lead to a criminal conviction. I will happily pay the penalty charge now, just to avoid any prosecution etc. Even settling out of court if necessary.

Many thanks!

 

[mikeg]

The attempt to charge you a penalty fare was correct. Hatfield is outside the Oyster zone and subject to all the penalty fares regulations being met, the penalty fare was due. By not paying the penalty fare, you have opened yourself up for prosecution under the railway byelaws. Please note penalty fares are not an accusation of outright fare evasion, the law permits their charging in cases such as honest mistakes.

Settling out of court is probably a likely outcome. Note a penalty fare has to be charged (but not necessarily paid in full) 'there and then'. It is not possible to send one through the post, for example.

 

[saltthrow]

Thanks, for your quick response.

I'm happy to settle this as soon as possible. Would ringing them tomorrow, apologising profusely and offering to pay be a wise move?

It was never my intention to travel without paying and if the staff would have explained it like you just have I would not have hesitated to pay. I can't get a criminal record and I'm absolutely terrified of the position I've managed to get myself in.

 

[mikeg]

No. If you have not yet received any correspondence, it is best to sit tight and wait for the dreaded letter, no matter how stressful that may be.

When said letter arrives, base your response around that, giving mitigation such as not realising that you were travelling outside the oyster zone. Also be apologetic and offer to make the necessary payments. But most importantly, wait for them.

 

[saltthrow]

How come it is important to let them send a letter first?

I’m currently moving house and will not live at the address on my id by the time the letter arrives. I have it set to forward to a new address.

Do you know how long correspondence normally takes?

Anticipating sleepless nights for some time over this!

Thanks

 

[mikeg]

Setting up a forwarding service is important anyway but you don't want to appear desperate or draw attention to yourself. There's also the (extremely slim) possibility that they don't get it action within 6 months, In which case they cannot prosecute.

 

[mikeg]

Correspondence takes anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months. They have six months to lay papers before the court, should they decide to prosecute.

 

[saltthrow]

Ok, thanks a lot for your help.

What should I do about correspondance for my new address? If they send a letter after the 3 months of my post being forwarded, I could potentially miss that letter. If I haven’t heard anything in a month should I write to say please send any correspondence to this address?

 

[MikeWh]

Ok, thanks a lot for your help.

What should I do about correspondance for my new address? If they send a letter after the 3 months of my post being forwarded, I could potentially miss that letter. If I haven’t heard anything in a month should I write to say please send any correspondence to this address?

I think I'd be inclined to extend the forwarding to 6 months, just to be on the safe side.

 

[MotCO]

Given that you may not hear anything for a little while, it is probably a good idea to write down a full recollection of the incident whilst it is still fresh in your mind. This would help you when you come to write your formal response.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Unfortunately I do not agree with the advice provided by other posters.

There are three relevant offences in question here.

Byelaw 18(1) of the Railway Byelaws makes it an offence to board a train without a valid ticket. This offence is not made out, since your bank card was a valid ticket when you boarded.

Byelaw 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws makes it an offence to fail to hand over a ticket for inspection. It does not require that the ticket be valid, merely that you hand it over so its validity (or lack thereof) can be ascertained. This offence is not made out, provided you proceeded to proffer your bank card when asked for a ticket.

Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 makes it an offence to travel on the railway without previously having paid the fare, if you intend to avoid payment thereof. There is no way this offence can be made out, since not only would you (as indeed occurred) be charged a maximum fare if you didn't tap out at a TfL reader, but there are barriers at Hatfield and accordingly there is no way you could have 'gotten away' with trying to use contactless. There is no strategy of fare evasion where using contactless beyond the boundary works.

Accordingly, I see no criminal offence that's been committed by you.

As to the Penalty Fare, there are seemingly more holes in the ways these are issued than in Swiss cheese. Signage is always going to be a big sticking point, seeing as there is only one operator whose signage complies with the requirements of the Regulations, and GTR is not them!

That's not to say you can completely bury your head in the sand, but it ought to be possible to appeal the Penalty Fare correctly, providing the Appeals Panel I is half-competent.

 

[some bloke]

there are barriers at Hatfield and accordingly there is no way you could have 'gotten away' with trying to use contactless. There is no strategy of fare evasion where using contactless beyond the boundary works.

Intent wouldn't necessarily depend on whether there actually are barriers in use, or whether a strategy could work. It could depend on the expectation of the passenger about those things - for example if someone has never been to that station, they might still for some reason anticipate no or open barriers.

it ought to be possible to appeal the Penalty Fare correctly, providing the Appeals Panel I is half-competent.

I think what ForTheLoveOf means is that it ought to be possible to make (or win) an argument, when the paperwork asks for your side of the story - or later in the process.

 

[najaB]

That's not to say you can completely bury your head in the sand, but it ought to be possible to appeal the Penalty Fare correctly, providing the Appeals Panel I is half-competent.

How does one appeal a penalty fare that wasn't issued?

 

[saltthrow]

I'll try to see if I can extend my post forwarding for another 3 months. There are 4 of us in this situation (plus many more in the station), so when they get letters I imagine mine will arrive too. I'll write up my version of events tonight. The way the staff presented the Refusal to Pay form was like a complaints form. Other than the member of staff reading the right to silence act, I had no idea what I was signing myself up for. I made a comment on the form about it seeming like a ploy to get extra money from festival-goers, which in hindsight was foolish. The total air of confusion and anger in the station (I recall about 10 people at least going through this process) clouded my judgement as we weren't told why we were being fined. Within about 1 minute of us signing the paperwork and the next train from London arriving they just opened the barriers and stopped checking tickets to ease the crowd control issues on the platform.

I'm not worried about fighting the charge, as I realise the onus was on me to check whether Hatfield was in the Oyster zone (even though I had never been to that station!). I presumed it was due to it's proximity to London. I just want to settle this without a criminal record. All I can do is apologise profusely and offer to settle out of court (although I have absolutely no experience in formal writing like that!).

I can't believe I could end up with a criminal record for not buying a £3.90 ticket. I've ended up paying more than that for the days TfL charge!

I hope I don't feel this nervous / sick for the whole wait for the letter. Thanks very much for your help guys!

 

[Kite159]

Accordingly, I see no criminal offence that's been committed by you.

Other than not having a valid ticket for the journey being made

----------

OP, set up mail forwarding (which is always worth doing when moving house) and just wait to see if a letter does come and what it says and how much they ask for. After-all you did travel without a valid ticket, and if the barriers weren't in operation at Hatfield would have gotten away with it (and only paying the TfL Max default fare)

 

[najaB]

There is no way this offence can be made out, since not only would you (as indeed occurred) be charged a maximum fare if you didn't tap out at a TfL reader, but there are barriers at Hatfield and accordingly there is no way you could have 'gotten away' with trying to use contactless. There is no strategy of fare evasion where using contactless beyond the boundary works.

I tap in at Kings Cross and alight at Edinburgh, no fare evasion since a TfL maximum fare was charged. Nice to know.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The OP tapped in at his origin station - expecting to tap out at Hatfield, but not realising it was outside of the fare zone - so presumably like oyster, there is no physical "ticket". How could he have intended avoiding paying the fare?

TFL have charged him £8.40 so surely the OP has "paid" his fare?

 

[some bloke]

if the barriers weren't in operation at Hatfield would have gotten away with it (and only paying the TfL Max default fare)

Maybe @saltthrow would have offered to pay on realising they couldn't legitimately tap out.

It's sensible to set up the forwarding for long enough, but is there any reassurance that can be offered to @saltthrow about what would happen if correspondence from the company gets delayed?

With court communications, a statutory declaration can get rid of the problem by starting again.

Does anyone know how train companies deal with it?

I'm not saying it's likely, but that saltthrow might prefer to be reassured.

 

[some bloke]

TFL have charged him £8.40 so surely the OP has "paid" his fare?

Perhaps Great Northern might say saltthrow paid it to the wrong organisation.

But it does seem relevant to mention to the company, since - unlike in the Edinburgh case - saltthrow has been charged more than the return fare just for the outward. So that would be quite a bad plan for a criminal - if they had some idea that Hatfield wasn't far - and maybe not sensible to prosecute under a byelaw either.

As a general observation, I'm not sure it's guaranteed that quoting the letter of specific laws, byelaws or regulations must work in legal arguments, even in the highest courts.

There may be other laws or accepted principles that override them, including a sense on the part of a magistrate or judge that the law shouldn't operate in a way they think is unsuitable.

It might not be beyond imagination that they then make a convoluted and weak argument which nevertheless does get to what we might think is, despite the letter of the law, a sensible result.

In other words, laws aren't perfect, and without being clear on what other considerations judges might bring to bear, and the extent to which judges bodge their results for what we might regard as good or otherwise (as well as other factors), it might not be easy to predict the eventual result.

 

[some bloke]

There was a lot of commotion and confusion in the station as The Great Northern staff were not letting people through the barriers. It was not explained why people were not being let through, staff just said 'just pay, just pay'. I didn't pay because there was absolutely no explanation about why I should. There was a day festival taking place, and the station was heaving with people also questioning the £20 charge to get through the gates.

That might be relevant - are you saying the staff asked the crowd as a whole if people used PAYG, then a large number said yes?

Explaining the situation might add credibility to your argument that the penalty fare wasn't explained properly.

Also, in a crowd or a crush it might not be safe or practical to look at what's on a piece of paper, or take in what's being said even if it was vaguely right. So there might be an argument that the company is being unreasonable in simply saying you refused. From your account it does seem unfair.

 

[saltthrow]

What's the background - are you saying the staff asked the crowd as a whole if people used PAYG, then a large number said yes?

Most people were leaving through the opened gates at the side of the station (staff said they were checking tickets there when I queried, but the volume of people leaving via that gate would have been a logistical nightmare to check every ticket). I went inside to terminate my journey on the scanners. When I tried to, the barriers didn't open and staff then said there was a £20 penalty fare. Many people were questioning this, as little detail was given about why we had to pay. Some paid and others like myself were redirected to another member of staff. I filled out the form thinking it was a complaints procedure and not realising the trouble it could bring. I wish more than anything that I had paid the penalty fare now. Live and learn etc.!

If I wanted to dodge the fare I would've walked out of the side gate, but I intended to pay for my ticket! The staff were rude and aggressive which deterred me from coughing up £20 for a journey I thought I had paid for.

Moments after I had signed the form, the staff opened the gates and let people through without checking tickets.

 

[some bloke]

Most people were leaving through the opened gates at the side of the station (staff said they were checking tickets there when I queried, but the volume of people leaving via that gate would have been a logistical nightmare to check every ticket). I went inside to terminate my journey on the scanners. When I tried to, the barriers didn't open and staff then said there was a £20 penalty fare. Many people were questioning this, as little detail was given about why we had to pay. Some paid and others like myself were redirected to another member of staff. I filled out the form thinking it was a complaints procedure and not realising the trouble it could bring. I wish more than anything that I had paid the penalty fare now. Live and learn etc.!

If I wanted to dodge the fare I would've walked out of the side gate, but I intended to pay for my ticket! The staff were rude and aggressive which deterred me from coughing up £20 for a journey I thought I had paid for.

Moments after I had signed the form, the staff opened the gates and let people through without checking tickets.

It sounds like you weren't being unreasonable in refusing, under the circumstances. Regret isn't justified if they didn't give you the right information, or information in a suitable setting.

As I understand it they don't have to offer penalty fares (as an alternative to threatening court), but even if that is somehow relevant, this is supposed to be failure on your part to do something when it looks like they failed. Before seeing your reply, I'd edited the post above to add more about crowds.

 

[saltthrow]

It sounds like you weren't being unreasonable in refusing, under the circumstances. Regret isn't justified if they didn't give you the right information, or information in a suitable setting.

As I understand it they don't have to offer penalty fares (as an alternative to threatening court), but even if that is somehow relevant, this is supposed to be failure on your part to do something when it looks like they failed. Before seeing your reply, I'd edited the post above to add more about crowds.

Thanks @some bloke, I'm currently drafting my response for when their letter arrives. Me and my SO are in the same position. Does anyone know my odds of settling out of court in this case? I really can't afford to get a criminal record at 25.

Obviously in hindsight I should've just paid the penalty, but in the heat of the moment, in a station I didn't know and in a crowd of people all being denied exit from the station it is/was almost impossible to understand the reasons why I was being denied exit, and the ramifications of signing the refusal to pay form.

Also there is a post above that has just been moderated so more information is on that.

 

[some bloke]

Thanks @some bloke, I'm currently drafting my response for when their letter arrives. Me and my SO are in the same position. Does anyone know my odds of settling out of court in this case? I really can't afford to get a criminal record at 25.

Obviously in hindsight I should've just paid the penalty, but in the heat of the moment, in a station I didn't know and in a crowd of people all being denied exit from the station it is/was almost impossible to understand the reasons why I was being denied exit, and the ramifications of signing the refusal to pay form.

Also there is a post above that has just been moderated so more information is on that.

Your SO might help provide corroboration of the chaos. I've now seen your post that's come online from earlier, and it looks ridiculous. No photos of the chaos I assume?

There's no such thing as "should have" when the information wasn't there.

It may be that GN realise, on getting stories like yours, that something went wrong.

Have you looked on Twitter to see if other people have told their story or confronted GN?

 

[saltthrow]

Your SO might help provide corroboration of the chaos. I've now seen your post that's come online from earlier, and it looks ridiculous. No photos of the chaos I assume?

There's no such thing as "should have" when the information wasn't there.

It may be that GN realise, on getting stories like yours, that something went wrong.

Have you looked on Twitter to see if other people have told their story or confronted GN?

Nothing on Twitter, I don't think many people got caught out, especially after they opened the gates. I wouldn't say it was chaos, just quite a few people all shouting at the poor staff. They were probably trying their best to explain, but didn't do a very good job of it. Every time a new train arrived the station got very busy.

My SO and I can definitely vouch for the staff not explaining the process clearly at all. I don't want to ring and complain about the staff/situation, as suggested earlier in the thread, it would bring attention to myself. Ideally I would resolve this out of court today if possible, but it seems I will be worrying for some time yet!

I'm hoping the fact that I had never travelled on that route before, did not understand the information presented to me, have never intentionally dodged a fare before, and was courteous (aside from the barbed comment about it being a ploy to take money from festival-goers, which I immediately regretted). I'm hoping a grovelling apology and offering to settle will suffice. I haven't found much online about how aggressively Great Northern pursue court cases.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Other than not having a valid ticket for the journey being made

Rather than making a statement like that, perhaps you'd like to point out the offence you are suggesting @saltthrow has committed.

There may be other laws or accepted principles that override them, including a sense on the part of a magistrate or judge that the law shouldn't operate in a way they think is unsuitable.

I'm afraid the law simply doesn't work like that. They can't simply say that they don't like the outcome of a particular conclusion and decide that it's therefore unacceptable.

Rather than going into such hypotheticals, it would be more helpful for the OP if you could suggest how exactly, and of which offence, they could be found guilty.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A couple of points that may be relevant:
- the OP has explained in some detail the level of chaos that there was at Hatfield. So it strikes me as quite likely that the railway may decide that to pursue a few people would not be a good idea.

So it may be that the OP won't hear anything more about it. But the only way you can be certain that you won't hear any more is by making sure your post reaches you. So ask for a longer redirection on your post. From the Royal Mail website, I see that 3 months costs £33.99 and 12 months £66.99. To me, peace of mind is worth an extra £33.

- it's good to avoid getting a criminal record, but very few jobs insist that you completely avoid one. These jobs have a tendency to be in finance, and possibly law. If you do get a criminal record, then in practice you may have to explain things to your employer - but very few employers see one error of judgement as a career ending matter. They may think differently if you compound the original matter by trying to hide it or lie about it - so if the worst comes to the worst, be honest about the mistake you made.

It's not the end of the world. As suggested, make a note of what has happened while your memory is fresh, get 12 months of post redirection to make sure that you don't inadvertently fall out of contact with the railway, and then try to put this to one side and get on with life. If it turns out that you do need to fight a battle, you will have everything prepared for it, so worrying about it won't help.

 

[saltthrow]

A couple of points that may be relevant:
- the OP has explained in some detail the level of chaos that there was at Hatfield. So it strikes me as quite likely that the railway may decide that to pursue a few people would not be a good idea.

So it may be that the OP won't hear anything more about it. But the only way you can be certain that you won't hear any more is by making sure your post reaches you. So ask for a longer redirection on your post. From the Royal Mail website, I see that 3 months costs £33.99 and 12 months £66.99. To me, peace of mind is worth an extra £33.

- it's good to avoid getting a criminal record, but very few jobs insist that you completely avoid one. These jobs have a tendency to be in finance, and possibly law. If you do get a criminal record, then in practice you may have to explain things to your employer - but very few employers see one error of judgement as a career ending matter. They may think differently if you compound the original matter by trying to hide it or lie about it - so if the worst comes to the worst, be honest about the mistake you made.

It's not the end of the world. As suggested, make a note of what has happened while your memory is fresh, get 12 months of post redirection to make sure that you don't inadvertently fall out of contact with the railway, and then try to put this to one side and get on with life. If it turns out that you do need to fight a battle, you will have everything prepared for it, so worrying about it won't help.

Many thanks @Fawkes Cat. This is the only time I've ever ended up in a situation like this so it is obviously quite scary and intimidating. Especially when criminal records can hinder entry to countries etc.

I'll extend my post forwarding for as long as possible. I've already spoken to my manager who reassured me that this will have no impact on my job. I've written down my account and drafted a letter already. Now I just have to try and relax whilst I wait...

 

[some bloke]

Many thanks @Fawkes Cat. This is the only time I've ever ended up in a situation like this so it is obviously quite scary and intimidating. Especially when criminal records can hinder entry to countries etc.

I'll extend my post forwarding for as long as possible. I've already spoken to my manager who reassured me that this will have no impact on my job. I've written down my account and drafted a letter already. Now I just have to try and relax whilst I wait...

Another thing you can do if you like is read about the legal situation in the event of a conviction - though hopefully in your case the company will realise - at least, it seems this way - that it's not sensible to do anything other than ask for a bit of cash.

The Unlock website may be useful, for example:

http://hub.unlock.org.uk/section/travel/

 

[some bloke]

it would be more helpful for the OP if you could suggest how exactly, and of which offence, they could be found guilty.

It's not unknown for people to be wrongly convicted. If an argument is untested, then it may not go as smoothly as hoped.

Is it best to tell the company, in effect, that they have the law wrong, or to suggest it might be interpreted a different way?