Failure to show railcard (valid!!)

[MollyMyers1]

Hello new member here!
On the 23rd September 2020 I travelled to university using a discounted ticket with 16-25 railcard. Upon getting off at the station I was asked to show my ticket to an inspector (who I had never seen at my station before) and asked to show my railcard. I have mine stored digitally on the railcard app, which i thought would be better than a physical card which i could lose or leave at home. Unfortunately upon going on the app i realised that I was on my new phone (before this date, i haven’t been to uni since before the first lockdown in March and during this time i got a new phone) and my old phone had the railcard on it on the railcard app. Annoyingly i assumed that when i transferred all my apps over the railcard would be on my new app on my new phone (I know i should have checked before). So essentially I explained that I didn’t have it and it was on a different phone at home, but I was “cautioned” and then asked to send an email with proof of my railcard to an email address within 14days of the 23rd sept.
I went straight home and emailed the address with a screenshot of my railcard on the railcard app, with my ID picture the valid date etc. My railcard at the time was due to expire on Oct 5th so was in date at the time of use. I didn’t receive a reply by email and so i sent a letter with a printed screenshots of my digital railcard and an apology of forgetting it and my version of events. I spent £6.70 on next day postage with tracked and signed to exact address they gave me since no one replied to my email.
Then on the 19th Nov I received a Notice of Intention to Prosecute detailing that I needed to explain my version of the events and my offence was “failing to show a valid ticket” which i assumed the “valid” part is the fact i couldn’t show my rail card. I was very confused because not only did i email to address i was told to with evidence, i also paid for a letter to be sent also with evidence to the address given and was not replied to for both. I have the proof of postage for the first letter still. So in response to my Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter I sent ANOTHER letter with evidence of my railcard and proof of postage for the first letter and my version of events that I got no response on. Now I am waiting to hear back and am wondering did they ever receive my letter? Anyway, I’m not sure what’s going to happen if i’ll need to pay a fine or what, I’m sure how these things work. This had never happened before

 

[Haywain]

It would help to know which train company (or other company) you are dealing with, as this may help us to offer some insight into their approach.

 

[MollyMyers1]

It would help to know which train company (or other company) you are dealing with, as this may help us to offer some insight into their approach.

Hi, sorry! Its for GTR? Thameslink i believe

Too add, it also says both letters was delivered and signed for both times. Just no response. I assume they haven’t gotten round to the second letter which i only sent about a week ago as the first letter from them which was a NIP came over a month after the incident first happened

It would help to know which train company (or other company) you are dealing with, as this may help us to offer some insight into their approac

 

[Fawkes Cat]

For the moment, all you can do is wait. As I understand it, GTR have asked you to explain if there's any reason why they shouldn't prosecute, and you've written back to explain why (i.e. that as asked you had sent them proof that you did have a valid railcard at the time, and that they appeared to have overlooked this, but here was the proof again). You now need to give them a chance to consider what you have sent them, and decide what to do.

Of course, the fact that an email and your first letter seem to have been lost won't fill you with confidence that they will manage to receive your second letter. But even if GTR do decide to take you to court, then you will hear from either them or the court, so that you know when the case is going to be heard.

So you still have another chance to try and get it into GTR's head that you have already done what they wanted. Which means that all you can do right now is to wait.

Hopefully, GTR will realise that they have made a mess of things, and the next that you will hear will be a letter telling you that no further action will be taken. But just in case GTR don't go down that road, make sure that you have everything you need to explain what happened:

- hang on to your proofs of posting (and delivery?) for the letters that you have sent
- keep a copy of the email that you sent, showing when sent and to what email address
- make a note of what you think has happened in case you need to go to court to explain everything (you've already done that in your original post here).

Also, be prepared for the possibility that GTR just drop the whole matter and don't bother mentioning it to you. So wait until the end of the period that they gave you to respond to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute (which was probably fourteen days) and give them another couple of weeks in case they need it to think about what you've said. Then contact them (probably by email) to ask courteously if they have come to a decision. So hopefully they will at least tell you what their decision is.

 

[MollyMyers1]

For the moment, all you can do is wait. As I understand it, GTR have asked you to explain if there's any reason why they shouldn't prosecute, and you've written back to explain why (i.e. that as asked you had sent them proof that you did have a valid railcard at the time, and that they appeared to have overlooked this, but here was the proof again). You now need to give them a chance to consider what you have sent them, and decide what to do.

Of course, the fact that an email and your first letter seem to have been lost won't fill you with confidence that they will manage to receive your second letter. But even if GTR do decide to take you to court, then you will hear from either them or the court, so that you know when the case is going to be heard.

So you still have another chance to try and get it into GTR's head that you have already done what they wanted. Which means that all you can do right now is to wait.

Hopefully, GTR will realise that they have made a mess of things, and the next that you will hear will be a letter telling you that no further action will be taken. But just in case GTR don't go down that road

- hang on to your proofs of posting (and delivery?) for the letters that you have sent
- keep a copy of the email that you sent, showing when sent and to what email address
- make a note of what you think has happened in case you need to go to court to explain everything (you've already done that in your original post here.

Also, be prepared for the possibility that GTR just drop the whole matter and don't bother mentioning it to you. So wait until the end of the period that they gave you to respond to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute (which was probably fourteen days) and give them another couple of weeks in case they need it to think about what you've said. Then contact them (probably by email) to ask courteously if they have come to a decision. So hopefully they will at least tell you what their decision is.

Thank you for your reply. I guess I will just have to wait, I think better communication on their end would be better, I’ve kept all the proof I have. I totally understand that anyone could lie about having a railcard and the correct steps should be followed but it seems insane that all this could arise from ONE time forgetting it for a very plausible reason, and then you given them the evidence they want and then still send you threatening letters.
If it does go to court, with my evidence that i have complied and done everything they ask, including have a valid ticket, what do you think will happen? Surely its a totally waste of time and money for them, since technically i haven’t done anything wrong other than forget one time!

Thank you for your reply. I guess I will just have to wait, I think better communication on their end would be better, I’ve kept all the proof I have. I totally understand that anyone could lie about having a railcard and the correct steps should be followed but it seems insane that all this could arise from ONE time forgetting it for a very plausible reason, and then you given them the evidence they want and then still send you threatening letters.
If it does go to court, with my evidence that i have complied and done everything they ask, including have a valid ticket, what do you think will happen? Surely its a totally waste of time and money for them, since technically i haven’t done anything wrong other than forget one time!

Apologies for my grammatical errors, my keyboard is playing up!

 

[221129]

including have a valid ticket

You did NOT have a valid ticket. So if it went to court they would almost certainly win.

 

[MollyMyers1]

You did NOT have a valid ticket. So if it went to court they would almost certainly win.

I meant rail card. How can they prosecute for forgetting? When I evidently have one?

You did NOT have a valid ticket. So if it went to court they would almost certainly win.

Would the courts seriously approve a fine for forgetting a rail card on ONE that saved me 60p and was valid at the time? If that’s the way it works then that’s shocking. People get fined the same for speeding and potentially being a risk to others.

 

[221129]

Would the courts seriously approve a fine for forgetting a rail card on ONE that saved me 60p and was valid at the time?

Yes. The offence is failing to have a valid ticket. Unfortunately not carrying the railcard at the time means you did not have a valid ticket. Therefore you are guilty and the court would have no choice but to find you as such.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Regrettably, what we are saying about what would happen in court is true - your ticket wasn't valid and so you would be found guilty.

But don't worry too much just yet. From what you (the original poster) have said, this sounds very much like your paperwork getting lost in GTR's office. It's not good that this happens, but railways are staffed by people, and from time to time people make mistakes. My feeling (with no special knowledge of how GTR work) is that when they find your most recent letter, they will realise what has happened, and not take the matter to court.

 

[MollyMyers1]

Yes. The offence is failing to have a valid ticket. Unfortunately not carrying the railcard at the time means you did not have a valid ticket. Therefore you are guilty and the court would have no choice but to find you as such.

I see, i read however that Thameslink are to offer you the opportunity to prove you have the card on one occasion? Also, i think they should improve their app so you can actually load the card up, i would argue there are various factors that don’t make it solely my fault i did not have a valid ticket.

Regrettably, what we are saying about what would happen in court is true - your ticket wasn't valid and so you would be found guilty.

But don't worry too much just yet. From what you (the original poster) have said, this sounds very much like your paperwork getting lost in GTR's office. It's not good that this happens, but railways are staffed by people, and from time to time people make mistakes. My feeling (with no special knowledge of how GTR work) is that when they find your most recent letter, they will realise what has happened, and not take the matter to court.

If they send me a settlement out of court, should i take it?

 

[221129]

read however that Thameslink are to offer you the opportunity to prove you have the card on one occasion?

This is not a right, and is at their discretion. This also normally only applies if you buy a new Undiscounted ticket at the time.

Also, i think they should improve their app so you can actually load the card up, i would argue there are various factors that don’t make it solely my fault i did not have a valid ticket.

Is all irrelevant as far as a court would be concerned.

 

[MollyMyers1]

Regrettably, what we are saying about what would happen in court is true - your ticket wasn't valid and so you would be found guilty.

But don't worry too much just yet. From what you (the original poster) have said, this sounds very much like your paperwork getting lost in GTR's office. It's not good that this happens, but railways are staffed by people, and from time to time people make mistakes. My feeling (with no special knowledge of how GTR work) is that when they find your most recent letter, they will realise what has happened, and not take the matter to court.

The can make mistakes with letters i pay for but i can’t forget a railcard on one occasion seems backwards

This is not a right, and is at their discretion. This also normally only applies if you buy a new Undiscounted ticket at the time.


Is all irrelevant as far as a court would be concerned.

Damn, that’s tough, do they not even consider the circumstances in relation to how much they will fine you? Honestly makes me worried to use the trainline again, i likely won’t repurchase another railcard.

 

[221129]

Honestly makes me worried to use the trainline

What does the trainline have to do with anything?

do they not even consider the circumstances in relation to how much they will fine you?

Only your financial circumstances generally.

 

[MollyMyers1]

Regrettably, what we are saying about what would happen in court is true - your ticket wasn't valid and so you would be found guilty.

But don't worry too much just yet. From what you (the original poster) have said, this sounds very much like your paperwork getting lost in GTR's office. It's not good that this happens, but railways are staffed by people, and from time to time people make mistakes. My feeling (with no special knowledge of how GTR work) is that when they find your most recent letter, they will realise what has happened, and not take the matter to court.

Also, why did the inspector tell me that it would all be fine if i just send them evidence within 14 days, if they were just going to treat me as guilty anyway?

What does the trainline have to do with anything?


Only your financial circumstances generally.

Well, I’m a student with near to no money in my name so hopefully not serious.

What does the trainline have to do with anything?


Only your financial circumstances generally.

Using the train service in general, makes me anxious to use it.

 

[Haywain]

I totally understand that anyone could lie about having a railcard and the correct steps should be followed but it seems insane that all this could arise from ONE time forgetting it for a very plausible reason,

Unfortunately, GTR have no way of knowing this was just one time - they only know that this was the one time that THEY have caught you.

Also, i think they should improve their app so you can actually load the card up, i would argue there are various factors that don’t make it solely my fault i did not have a valid ticket.

You are referring to the railcard app, I presume? It is your responsibility to ensure that as a railcard holder you are able to produce the railcard when you are travelling and that means, I am afraid, that it is solely your fault (although I accept that it may not have been intentional).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Also, why did the inspector tell me that it would all be fine if i just send them evidence within 14 days, if they were just going to treat me as guilty anyway?

Because the inspector is also human, and as such cannot accurately predict that the back office who are meant to be processing things will get it wrong.

To repeat what I said earlier, for the moment there's nothing you can do. So while I know this is much easier for me to say than it is for you to do, just relax and don't worry. Give GTR a few weeks to respond. If they don't do that, then that is the time to worry.

 

[MollyMyers1]

Regrettably, what we are saying about what would happen in court is true - your ticket wasn't valid and so you would be found guilty.

But don't worry too much just yet. From what you (the original poster) have said, this sounds very much like your paperwork getting lost in GTR's office. It's not good that this happens, but railways are staffed by people, and from time to time people make mistakes. My feeling (with no special knowledge of how GTR work) is that when they find your most recent letter, they will realise what has happened, and not take the matter to court.

Also is this seen as a criminal offence or a civil matter?

Because the inspector is also human, and as such cannot accurately predict that the back office who are meant to be processing things will get it wrong.

To repeat what I said earlier, for the moment there's nothing you can do. So while I know this is much easier for me to say than it is for you to do, just relax and don't worry. Give GTR a few weeks to respond. If they don't do that, then that is the time to worry.

i appreciate your response. What offence will i be found guilty of if it does go to court? Like what does invalid ticket come under, because obviously i did purchase one it was just invalid?

 

[221129]

Also is this seen as a criminal offence or a civil matter?

It would be a criminal offence tried in a Magistrates Court.

What offence will i be found guilty of if it does go to court?

That would depend what you are charged with. Most likely Under the Railway Bylaws.

 

[MollyMyers1]

Unfortunately, GTR have no way of knowing this was just one time - they only know that this was the one time that THEY have caught you.

You are referring to the railcard app, I presume? It is your responsibility to ensure that as a railcard holder you are able to produce the railcard when you are travelling and that means, I am afraid, that it is solely your fault (although I accept that it may not have been intentional).

Thank you for your response, I guess it wouldn’t be fair for them to speculate upon no evidence though that i coupd have forgotten it multiple times, which i don’t think i would even get away with but i see your point. I just hope they are fair about it. I’ll pay a fine i just want it over with.

 

[Hadders]

The 2017 DfT Action Plan on Rail Fares & Ticketing says:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/669746/action-plan-information-on-rail-fares-ticketing.pdf

In February 2017, the rail industry announced that railcard holders who forget to take their railcards with them will, on the first occasion, now be able to reclaim any additional expense they incur for the omission if they subsequently provide proof of the railcard.

And the terms and conditions of the 16-25 Railcard say:

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

If you have supplied proof of your railcard to GTR then it would appear to be an administrative error on their part. I would write to them again, detailing exactly what happened and what you have done etc and ask them to confirm that they are not going to pursue the case any further.

 

[221129]

The 2017 DfT Action Plan on Rail Fares & Ticketing says:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/669746/action-plan-information-on-rail-fares-ticketing.pdf

And the terms and conditions of the 16-25 Railcard say:

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

If you have supplied proof of your railcard to GTR then it would appear to be an administrative error on their part. I would write to them again, detailing exactly what happened and what you have done etc and ask them to confirm that they are not going to pursue the case any further.

None of which is relevant as the OP was not charged a new fare or Penalty Fare.

 

[Hadders]

None of which is relevant as the OP was not charged a new fare or Penalty Fare.

It is highly relevant to the OP's case, especially as it says that each Train Company will have its own process for dealing with it.

 

[221129]

It is highly relevant to the OP's case, especially as it says that each Train Company will have its own process for dealing with it.

Which in this case is the prosecution route. As they are well entitled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which in this case is the prosecution route. As they are well entitled.

The T&C do not actually allow for that, notably. That could at least mean the TOC is guilty of misrepresentation.

People may inform their actions based on the T&C. If I had forgotten my Railcard, noticed while on the train and was in a hurry, I might well continue on the basis that it's worth the cost of a PF to do so. If it stated prosecution was a possibility, which it doesn't, I would certainly get off at the next station even if in a hurry and purchase a new ticket, because a criminal record is to be avoided at all costs.

 

[Hadders]

Which in this case is the prosecution route. As they are well entitled.

Such a prosecution would look absolutely ridiculous. The DfT Action plan, which the rail industry has signed up to, is quite clear about what should happen in the case of a forgotten railcard and GTR have not followed this, if what the OP has told us is correct.

My view is that this is an administrative issue at GTR's end.

 

[LowLevel]

Which in this case is the prosecution route. As they are well entitled.

They are bound by the railcard terms and conditions that state the railcard holder should be allowed to purchase a new ticket or be issued a penalty fare for the first failure to present, both of which should be refunded or be able to be successfully appealed by presenting the railcard in some fashion (my own TOC sends out a form on request which is taken to a booking office with the railcard and stamped by the clerk to say it was seen and validated).

An inspector interviewing under caution and completing an MG11 is very much jumping the gun and is the opposite of what the industry needs right now.

This was introduced following a lot of bad publicity regarding prosecutions or expensive tickets having to be purchased following a simple verifiable error on the part of the customer which could easily be remedied.

 

[furlong]

Yes. The offence is failing to have a valid ticket. Unfortunately not carrying the railcard at the time means you did not have a valid ticket. Therefore you are guilty and the court would have no choice but to find you as such.

The court always has a choice. If there were a token case like this (as others have already said, in apparent defiance of company, rail industry and public policy) the defence might have recourse to "abuse of process" arguments or failing those push for an absolute discharge and for the prosecution to bear full costs. (The possibility of having to bear the costs deters this type of case.)

 

[bb21]

Please ensure you stay on topic assisting the poster seeking help. This is especially important in the disputes area of the forum to avoid cluttering threads up and the poster potentially having to scroll through irrelevant material to read important posts. Save the running commentary on the fares system for other threads. Thank you.

 

[MollyMyers1]

Hey everyone, i got a letter today saying that considering what i have said in my letters and that i did in fact possess a railcard, that are closing the case entirely and have actually apologised. Thank you for everyone that replied. I feel very relieved.

Which in this case is the prosecution route. As they are well entitled.

To you i just want to say, i didn’t appreciate your fear-mongering and feel that you are rather uneducated on these matters clearly, because nothing you said happened, and from what i have discovered there would have been no grounds for prosecution in a court for a forgotten railcard, maybe you have got confused with other situations. I have seen you replying in other peoples posts, and you seem to only want to reply in a way that comes across as rude and negative and quite frankly NOT helpful. Not sure if you are on here to be the king of doom or if you are just bored, or just because you love trains. But glad i didn’t listen to you Have a good day!

They are bound by the railcard terms and conditions that state the railcard holder should be allowed to purchase a new ticket or be issued a penalty fare for the first failure to present, both of which should be refunded or be able to be successfully appealed by presenting the railcard in some fashion (my own TOC sends out a form on request which is taken to a booking office with the railcard and stamped by the clerk to say it was seen and validated).

An inspector interviewing under caution and completing an MG11 is very much jumping the gun and is the opposite of what the industry needs right now.

This was introduced following a lot of bad publicity regarding prosecutions or expensive tickets having to be purchased following a simple verifiable error on the part of the customer which could easily be remedied.

Thank you for your replies

 

[WesternLancer]

Hey everyone, i got a letter today saying that considering what i have said in my letters and that i did in fact possess a railcard, that are closing the case entirely and have actually apologised. Thank you for everyone that replied. I feel very relieved.

Good to hear outcome. Thanks for update.