Failure to show ticket at Hatfield

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onyebuoke

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On 1st April, 2012, I bought a return ticket for £2.45(using young person's railcard) and boarded a train from Welham Green at about 9am to Welwyn Garden city ( a 8min journey). There was a barrier there at welwyn and it clocked one of my tickets(being a two-part journey). I stayed with friends in Welwyn Garden city all day and started heading back at about 9.30pm. On reaching the train station, the train to welham green was for 21.58. Now about 21.52, a train came and I mistakenly entered it thinking it going to take me to welham green. On realizing it wasnt the train i was meant to take, i stopped at Hatfield (note that welham green is two-stops from hatfield) and waited at the platform (note i did not go into the train station) for a train that would take my destination. A station officer came to me while standing on platform and asked for my train ticket rudely, because of how rude he was, I refused to show him my ticket. I also did not show him my ticket because i have never been asked for a ticket on d platform (while not in the train). He threatened to call the police and stop the train. (i was confident because I had a valid ticket and even if the police came, I would show them). When the train for Welham Green, I boarded it and it took me to welham green.After sometime in welham green, i decided to go to hatfield, so i bought a ticket and took a train going to hatfield. On reaching hatfield, the same guy that talked to me rudely before, stopped me again (even with my valid ticket). He called the cops, I dropped my details..I argued that I had a valid ticket for that journey he stopped me for and told I had even another ticket valid from Kings Lynn to hatfield (an open return)..But the cops and the ticket officer wouldnt listen and I was told to show my tickets to the jury if charged. This station officer then told me that a letter could be sent to me if I am going to be charged. A letter has been received and the offence is that i failed to hand over a rail ticket for inspection. The issue now is that I have got to reply, because the ticket came on the 26th, I had thrown away the Welwyn Garden-Welham Green ticket because I thought I wasnt going to be charged again (intention to prosecute). But fortunately, I still have a valid Kings Lynn - Hatfield that would have been OK for the ticket man but that wasnt for my journey :cry: . I need advice, I cant pay any fine because I had a valid ticket, I dont want to have a criminal record because of a rude officer and a paid £2.45 journey . Thanks for ur help...
 
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RailUK Forums

Failed Unit

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.But the cops and the ticket officer wouldnt listen and I was told to show my tickets to the jury if charged. This station officer then told me that a letter could be sent to me if I am going to be charged. A letter has been received and the offence is that i failed to hand over a rail ticket for inspection.
Rail staff do have the right to request tickets and you don't have a right to deny showing them no matter how rude they are.

On thing that does seem odd is that you are challenged retrospecitvely. I very rarely have tickets after I have completed the journey, as either the barrier has taken it or I have thrown it away. FCC would have a very hard time of retrospecively prosecuting you - even if you didn't have a ticket! You need to be caught in the act or have some extremely strong evidence that you have avoided the fare - not producing a ticket is not strong enough.
 

ralphchadkirk

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On 1st April, 2012, I bought a return ticket for £2.45(using young person's railcard) and boarded a train from Welham Green at about 9am to Welwyn Garden city ( a 8min journey).
Ok, so the ticket you got was a Welham Green - Welwyn Garden City return?
A station officer came to me while standing on platform and asked for my train ticket rudely, because of how rude he was, I refused to show him my ticket. I also did not show him my ticket because i have never been asked for a ticket on d platform (while not in the train).
You've committed an offence under Byelaw 18(2), as you failed to show a valid ticket when requested to do so by an authorised person.
He threatened to call the police and stop the train. (i was confident because I had a valid ticket and even if the police came, I would show them).
When the train for Welham Green, I boarded it and it took me to welham green.
This doesn't quite add up. One minute you're on the platform talking to a member of the TOC staff. The next minute he's telling you he will stop the train (but you're on the platform?). He's also telling you he will call the police, but then happily lets you get on a train?
After sometime in welham green, i decided to go to hatfield, so i bought a ticket and took a train going to hatfield.
Right, so you've got back to Welwyn GC now, so you have used both portions of your ticket. Did you buy another one to go back to Hatfield?
On reaching hatfield, the same guy that talked to me rudely before, stopped me again (even with my valid ticket). He called the cops, I dropped my details..I argued that I had a valid ticket for that journey he stopped me for and told I had even another ticket valid from Kings Lynn to hatfield (an open return)..But the cops and the ticket officer wouldnt listen and I was told to show my tickets to the jury if charged.
This, again, just doesn't add up for me.
This station officer then told me that a letter could be sent to me if I am going to be charged. A letter has been received and the offence is that i failed to hand over a rail ticket for inspection.
As you did, in the first meeting with the member of station staff.


We need more information to see if they are charging for the first or the second incident. If it is the first, then they've got you, as you admit, you refused to display a valid ticket when asked.

I'm sure some of our more experienced members will be along shortly to give more detailed advice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You need to be caught in the act or have some extremely strong evidence that you have avoided the fare - not producing a ticket is not strong enough.
No, failure to show a valid ticket to an authorised staff member in a non-CTA is an offence.
 

Fare-Cop

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Failure to show a ticket on demand is a strict liability offence contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.2 (2005). That failure on its own is sufficient for a summary prosecution to be brought

The penalty upon conviction can be a fine (up to £1000 maximum) and the usual entry point is £200 (determined by Band A of Magistrates sentencing guidelines)

This means that if convicted the defendant will usually face a fine at that level and may be given credit for an early guilty plea, which will reduce the fine and further reductions may be allowed according to circumstances. Any financial penalty may also include an order to pay part (or all) of the prosecution costs

It is perfectly possible that a conditional discharge may be allowed when a first time offender pleads guilty and attends Court and apologises.
 

RJ

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On 1st April, 2012, I bought a return ticket for £2.45(using young person's railcard) and boarded a train from Welham Green at about 9am to Welwyn Garden city ( a 8min journey). There was a barrier there at welwyn and it clocked one of my tickets(being a two-part journey). I stayed with friends in Welwyn Garden city all day and started heading back at about 9.30pm. On reaching the train station, the train to welham green was for 21.58. Now about 21.52, a train came and I mistakenly entered it thinking it going to take me to welham green. On realizing it wasnt the train i was meant to take, i stopped at Hatfield (note that welham green is two-stops from hatfield) and waited at the platform (note i did not go into the train station) for a train that would take my destination. A station officer came to me while standing on platform and asked for my train ticket rudely, because of how rude he was, I refused to show him my ticket. I also did not show him my ticket because i have never been asked for a ticket on d platform (while not in the train). He threatened to call the police and stop the train. (i was confident because I had a valid ticket and even if the police came, I would show them). When the train for Welham Green, I boarded it and it took me to welham green.After sometime in welham green, i decided to go to hatfield, so i bought a ticket and took a train going to hatfield. On reaching hatfield, the same guy that talked to me rudely before, stopped me again (even with my valid ticket). He called the cops, I dropped my details..I argued that I had a valid ticket for that journey he stopped me for and told I had even another ticket valid from Kings Lynn to hatfield (an open return)..But the cops and the ticket officer wouldnt listen and I was told to show my tickets to the jury if charged. This station officer then told me that a letter could be sent to me if I am going to be charged. A letter has been received and the offence is that i failed to hand over a rail ticket for inspection. The issue now is that I have got to reply, because the ticket came on the 26th, I had thrown away the Welwyn Garden-Welham Green ticket because I thought I wasnt going to be charged again (intention to prosecute). But fortunately, I still have a valid Kings Lynn - Hatfield that would have been OK for the ticket man but that wasnt for my journey :cry: . I need advice, I cant pay any fine because I had a valid ticket, I dont want to have a criminal record because of a rude officer and a paid £2.45 journey . Thanks for ur help...
You've brought this upon yourself. If an officer of the railway requests you to produce a ticket then you should just do it and it would have been over and done with. The proper procedure would have been to show your ticket then submit a complaint to Customer Relations.

Now thanks to your stubbornness, you've committed a Byelaw offence and look set to be prosecuted!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Rail staff do have the right to request tickets and you don't have a right to deny showing them no matter how rude they are.

On thing that does seem odd is that you are challenged retrospecitvely. I very rarely have tickets after I have completed the journey, as either the barrier has taken it or I have thrown it away. FCC would have a very hard time of retrospecively prosecuting you - even if you didn't have a ticket! You need to be caught in the act or have some extremely strong evidence that you have avoided the fare - not producing a ticket is not strong enough.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf

Not producing a valid ticket when asked to do so (without qualifying for the listed mitigating factors) is a strict liability offence in itself. Byelaw 18 is the relevant section :).
 

island

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Since you chose not to present a valid ticket when requested by an authorised person, you have committed an offence.

Luckily it is not a recordable offence, but if you want to avoid a court case you may be able to avoid it by offering a sum of money in compensation to FCC.
 

onyebuoke

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Since you chose not to present a valid ticket when requested by an authorised person, you have committed an offence.

Luckily it is not a recordable offence, but if you want to avoid a court case you may be able to avoid it by offering a sum of money in compensation to FCC.
How much might this compensation be?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Rail staff do have the right to request tickets and you don't have a right to deny showing them no matter how rude they are.
Even if he was racist?????
 

bignosemac

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Even if he was racist?????
In your OP you said this person was rude. You now say he was racist.

Despite being racist, this person was prepared to call the police.

Why, if this person was racist did you not call the police? I suspect because you didn't have a valid ticket and this person was merely doing his job.

An accusation of racism is a very serious matter, if you truly believe that this person was racist then you must report it.

Think very hard about that accusation.

I suspect though that there was no racist language used and you are using this as a pretty poor excuse for your failure to ensure you had a valid ticket.
 

Darandio

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That is a strong card to play there, and I don't believe you would have left it out of your original post if it were true. It's not exactly a fact that wouldn't be relevant, is it?

Given your original post was also full of holes, in order to get the required help you have asked for, it may be a good idea to address those as well.
 

ralphchadkirk

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And even if he was racist - which I highly doubt - it doesn't excuse not displaying a valid ticket. So it's a pointless defence.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk
 

IanD

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And even if he was racist - which I highly doubt - it doesn't excuse not displaying a valid ticket. So it's a pointless defence.
Maybe the hope is that with the threat of adverse publicity in the form or "Racist Railway" headlines the offence will be overlooked.

Doesn't have to be true for a newspaper to run with it and then later issue a one line retraction at the bottom of page 23.
 

RJ

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How much might this compensation be?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Even if he was racist?????
Here we go. Appeals departments have come across “you” thousands of times before. Attempting to deflect attention away from your own wrongdoing by alluding to some supposed indiscretions by the member of staff is overwhelmingly likely to lose any sympathy to your cause. It's a tactic commonly utilised by unintelligent people in an attempt to get away with it or even blackmail the TOC so they can wring them for compensation. Such people always are selective in the information they provide and have holes in their story and so are easily or at least eventually dismissed.

I question people who have orchestrated stories designed to get sympathy and every time, they end up revealing important details which their original account conveniently omitted, which exposes lies or exaggerations with the intention on making them look the victim and the member of staff a villain for no apparent reason. Here, you claim the member of staff was rude and racist to you? Why would that happen if he only wanted to see you ticket, which you claim you had a valid one to show?

The appeals department is not a Customer Service centre - they're only interested in whether or not you had a valid ticket to show. Once they've dealt with the ticketing matter and you've paid out in fines or out of court settlement, then by all means submit a complaint about the alleged misconduct.

 
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bb21

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I agree with the others in that by refusing to hand over a valid ticket for inspection, you have broken the law. It is as simple as that.

I would urge you to leave out the argument that the officer was racist in any of your dealings with the railway company as that is not a valid excuse for your behaviour and you're unlikely to gain any sympathy from the member of staff dealing with your case.

If you truly believe that he was racist towards you, the correct procedure is to submit a separate complaint to customer services.
 
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