Fair treatment of passengers?

[Solent&Wessex]

What happens when such queries arise with Travelling Passengers is that staff too often lack the expertise and/or the inclination and/or the resources to check and clarify the position, even when they repeatedly encounter the same issue (as with the Manchester-Reading via London example above).

They rely on intuition (e.g. 'a cheaper ticket can't be valid when a more expensive ticket exists') and frequently deny the relevance of the Routeing Guide.

It is this behaviour that is unacceptable and must be addressed through effective training.

Sadly though this reaction from some staff is sort of understandable, as I posted on another thread.

If you are not given effective training by your employer, your employer fails to tell that such things as the Routeing Guide actually exist (and in some cases when you enquire to your employer about it you are told it either doesn't exist or it is outdated and irrelevant), the internal notices you see only give you very vague information about things (generally along the lines of a cheaper ticket can't be valid when a more expensive ticket exists) and you have no one to contact to find out (the person on the other end of the phone in control probably knows less than you) then what do you do? Listen to the passenger, who is using some complicated ticket combination that you have never been told about - but everything you have been told by your employer gives you the impression they might not be valid - and tells you to look it up in a document you have never even heard of, or your employers training. You might be inclined to believe that the passenger is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and is in fact invalid.

 

[AndyLandy]

I also can't help but think that if you make a fuss about guards not being able to identify these types of tickets correctly, we're far more likely to see stricter ticket restrictions as the preferred solution...

 

[Flamingo]

I also can't help but think that if you make a fuss about guards not being able to identify these types of tickets correctly, we're far more likely to see stricter ticket restrictions as the preferred solution...

You may be right. At the moment it is not seen as a problem, if it becomes one then the railway will go for the easiest solution...

 

[island]

Route Via Penrith fares are quite clearly redundant effectively.

Anytimes yes, but there are off-peak tickets available via Penrith and not Any Permitted.

If you were found on a train without the unused return portion, would you be expected to buy a new single ticket, new return ticket or just excessed to the return in the proper direction? Could you get a penalty fare, or be reported for prosecution?

New ticket, your choice of anytime single or return, PF if approached by authorised collector, or prosecution if the staff member didn't like you. Or discretion used, perhaps.

 

[snail]

The golden rule is that the combinations are always valid, I always know precisely why they are valid and I'm always willing to explain, invariably to staff who are not willing to listen.

The problem I have with threads like this is that we can't verify or challenge your assertions because of your secrecy. Nor can we challenge your assertion that you never make a mistake.

As for the subject of the OP, I've done the same as the other traveller more than once when catching a delayed northbound service from Preston that doesn't stop at Lancaster . And been allowed to double back from Oxenholme every time without penalty.

As others have said, that's a very different scenario to someone presenting complex split ticketing that on first impressions may look invalid.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Route Via Penrith fares are quite clearly redundant effectively.

The CDR from Preston to Carlisle is £20.90 compared to £35.10 for the SVR (via Penrith) or £37.40 for the Any Permitted SOR.

 

[Greenback]

You may be right. At the moment it is not seen as a problem, if it becomes one then the railway will go for the easiest solution...

Sadly, I think you are correct!

But I also think that there is no excuse for the training and support being provide dby TOC's that does not even acknowledge the RG, never mind train people in how to use it!

 

[RJ]

Travelled again today! Irritatingly but not unexpectedly, the guard took exception and insisted I had to pay for a new ticket. I paid up this time, because I can't be bothered with the additional hassle that appealing UFNs comes with. Once I paid, the guard went on her way.

The guard forgot to take her chip and pin pad. Upon arrival at the last station, I walked down to the opposite end of train to give it to her. I knocked on the kitchen door, handed it over and turned around, about to walk away. I was unprepared for the full scale verbal attack that followed however. As ever, I maintained my cool decorum and declined to mirror her behaviour. Today's events were the last straw. A review is required in the way customer service is upheld in reality.

 

[pemma]

Have you made any attempt to get written proof from the operator that your combination or is valid?

The guard forgot to take her chip and pin pad. Upon arrival at the last station, I walked down to the opposite end of train to give it to her. I knocked on the kitchen door, handed it over and turned around, about to walk away.

I'm no expect on chip and PIN machines but couldn't her carelessness with that machine have led to numerous passengers having their card details compromised?

 

[Flamingo]

I'm no expect on chip and PIN machines but couldn't her carelessness with that machine have led to numerous passengers having their card details compromised?

I don't think so, as far as I know the PDA contains the information, the Dyone is just a reader.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Have you made any attempt to get written proof from the operator that your combination or is valid?



I'm no expect on chip and PIN machines but couldn't her carelessness with that machine have led to numerous passengers having their card details compromised?

No as the chip and pin device does not store data, it merely reads the chip and sends the data to the avantix

 

[BestWestern]

Travelled again today! Irritatingly but not unexpectedly, the guard took exception and insisted I had to pay for a new ticket. I paid up this time, because I can't be bothered with the additional hassle that appealing UFNs comes with. Once I paid, the guard went on her way.

The guard forgot to take her chip and pin pad. Upon arrival at the last station, I walked down to the opposite end of train to give it to her. I knocked on the kitchen door, handed it over and turned around, about to walk away. I was unprepared for the full scale verbal attack that followed however. As ever, I maintained my cool decorum and declined to mirror her behaviour. Today's events were the last straw. A review is required in the way customer service is upheld in reality.

I'm sorry to repeat what has already been posted numerous times previously, but you really do need to elaborate and offer some detail beyond just empty statements like this. What did you say, what did the Guard say, etc etc? As this doesn't involve divulging any 'sensitive' ticketing details perhaps you could enlighten us on this occasion?

I mean no offence here, but posts such as the one above are more akin to some sort of blog than a 'discussion' as one might expect to find on a forum. I would also have to say, whilst I no way condone staff being rude or abusive, that you come across on here as very slightly aloof in your manner, and if you "mirror" this in person there is always the possibility that it will influence how others behave toward you.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I haven't got a clue what happened but there is a saying that goes for both staff and passengers. You reap what you sow

 

[David]

I don't quite understand what RJ is trying to achieve here, apart from belittling railway staff for not knowing every single thing there is to know about ticketing and routing .... :?

 

[telstarbox]

Guards shouldn't be expected to know every possible ticket that's valid on each train.

However, given the widely recognised complexity and in some cases ambiguity of the ticketing system, they should as a minimum be aware of the existence of the Routeing Guide (this does not require knowledge of every single restriction code, permitted route or easement). If they aren't completely sure that a ticket isn't valid then they should not claim that it isn't.

 

[RJ]

I don't quite understand what RJ is trying to achieve here, apart from belittling railway staff for not knowing every single thing there is to know about ticketing and routing .... :?

You're missing the point. It's not about belittling staff, it's about their attitude towards a passenger who stands their ground when doing something that conflicts with their own understanding. You may feel it's reasonable for them to penalise passengers when they are not sure if the passenger has transgressed. I don't, so we will have to disagree. One company has instructed its staff to stop doing this to me, so I'm not alone.

I treated people the way I wished to be treated. I only ever penalised passengers if I knew in my mind the precise location of the text that stated their actions were incorrect. If ever they disputed this, I was more than happy to bring up the text for their peace of mind. If this was not possible, I would either take their details and withdraw their tickets for investigation, allowing them to continue without penalty, or I would give the benefit of the doubt and check at a quiet time. You may think I was being unfair for believing in innocent until proven guilty, or neglecting my job by doing this and expecting the same treatment back, but again, I disagree.

However, some of these time served staff are not willing to do this, which I think is a problem as it inconveniences passengers who have not done anything wrong.

 

[MikeWh]

The problem I have with threads like this is that we can't verify or challenge your assertions because of your secrecy. Nor can we challenge your assertion that you never make a mistake.

Well in this instance we can verify. RJ has explained that the bone of contention is that a train does not need to stop at split points when one of the tickets is a season. We don't need to know anything else and that fact ought to be covered in training.

As to whether he ever makes a mistake - I think the fact that EMT have told their staff to believe any combination he offers suggests that they realise that he knows what he is doing and can be trusted.

 

[GadgetMan]

The guard forgot to take her chip and pin pad. Upon arrival at the last station, I walked down to the opposite end of train to give it to her. I knocked on the kitchen door, handed it over and turned around, about to walk away. I was unprepared for the full scale verbal attack that followed however.

There has got to be more to the conversation than that surely. Guard said your ticket was not valid, so to avoid hassle you purchased a new one. You then did the guard a favour by going out of your way to return the Chip and Pin pad, and rather than a Thank you, you get abuse?

I appreciate not all rail staff are as polite and calm at all times as they should be, but I find it hard to believe that even the nastiest of guards would fail to thank you for returning equipment they had mislaid.

 

[bnm]

I would also have to say, whilst I no way condone staff being rude or abusive, that you come across on here as very slightly aloof in your manner, and if you "mirror" this in person there is always the possibility that it will influence how others behave toward you.

Hear hear. But there's the risk that pointing this out draws ire. I know from experience. :roll:

 

[Pumbaa]

"HOW DARE YOU steal my chip and pin device - I COULDN'T possibly have left it on my own accord..."

That old chestnut eh?

 

[RJ]

I'm sorry to repeat what has already been posted numerous times previously, but you really do need to elaborate and offer some detail beyond just empty statements like this. What did you say, what did the Guard say, etc etc? As this doesn't involve divulging any 'sensitive' ticketing details perhaps you could enlighten us on this occasion?

I mean no offence here, but posts such as the one above are more akin to some sort of blog than a 'discussion' as one might expect to find on a forum. I would also have to say, whilst I no way condone staff being rude or abusive, that you come across on here as very slightly aloof in your manner, and if you "mirror" this in person there is always the possibility that it will influence how others behave toward you.

Ok. When I was about to walk away, instead of thanking me for bringing her card machine, she said that she had asked a colleague who had agreed that the combination was 100% invalid. I didn't go there to discuss the matter any further, but as she started it off, I responded by explaining why they were valid. I also said that I was a regular traveller and that certain head office staff would be able to tell her about my history if my name was mentioned. She declined to do that, but did iterate that she had 14 years of experience and didn't need to check to recognise an invalid ticket when she saw one.

The upshot is, she said she didn't care about any shortest route or Conditions of Carriage crap, nor did she care about what I had to say. She said that I was a sad individual for spending time reading up on my tickets and that I should take my sad little hobby elsewhere, because she wasn't interested in listening to my explanations. In response, I said that firstly, I only came to hand in her machine, not to talk about tickets and secondly, I had only attempted to explain, because she was the ticket inspector after all, who took the decision to charge me for a new ticket. At that point, she said she didn't care and told me to walk away. So I did, but she continued to shout at me. I said that there was no need for her to be personal and insult me, because I was not being rude or aggressive towards her. She then said go away, so I turned and started walking again, only for her to continue shouting scornful abuse after me. I said I thought that was very unprofessional of her as I was walking away.

I was surprised that she did this in full view of her catering colleages. I feel that part of the problem is the use of flashy job titles which encourage a certain type of person to look down on others who are not actually their subordinates. I wonder why else these people find it so difficult to accept that they might be able to learn something new from a passenger

Believe me, don't believe me. I'm not bothered either way, but this is what I'm up against when I dispute my liability to pay for a new ticket. I just make sure that I never let it be said that I'm abusive towards a member of staff. The worst they can say is that I'm irritatingly persistent and a knowitall, because I refuse to concede that I am wrong. I'll give them that as well, because there is not a hope in hell that I'll sit there and nod like an idiot whilst they attempt to extract large amounts of money from me!

 

[soil]

What I don't understand is why you bought the ticket in the first place. Did you not say 'My ticket(s) are valid, I will not purchase another?'

 

[Monty]

What I don't understand is why you bought the ticket in the first place. Did you not say 'My ticket(s) are valid, I will not purchase another?'

I thought a UFN was issued in place of a ticket as RJ said he no funds?

 

[RJ]

That was Monday, Monty. I'm yet to deal with that UFN. This one happened yesterday (Tuesday) . I'm probably travelling twice more this week with the return portions of those tickets. Some of the guards are really sound so I hope one who won't give me any hassle checks next time.

Soil, I say that most times and invariably, the response is "I'll need your name and address then." Except for one instance where a TM put pressure on me to hand over a card for payment of a new ticket. I told her at least five times that I didn't have any spare money to give her for new tickets, but she kept saying that I needed to give her a card and it would decline if I had no money on it. In the end, I gave her a Smart Shopping prepaid card I got for free from Sony, which I had already used up. Only when that declined, did she finally issue a UFN.

I did consider refusing to offer any funds but as I said, I'm getting really bored with appealing UFNs. The process moves at a funereal pace. I have a shedload of RTVs so I part paid for the new Anytime ticket using several of those and the remainder (£1) in cash. I'd rather state my case to Customer Relattions who are a great bunch of people, than the appeals body who have demonstrated that they are unable to determine ticket validities when I provided step by step workings and spoon fed them the clauses that permit me to do what I do

 

[bb21]

but as she started it off, I responded by explaining why they were valid.

What do you expect to achieve by doing this? You've paid for an additional ticket. You are going to be dealing with Customer Service for a refund and possible compensation. Why give yourself extra grief by engaging in a conversation with a clearly unknowledgeable guard who is highly unlikely to believe you, from previous experience of staff from the same company?

 

[Roylang]

To try and bring this back on topic…

I have just read this thread and it seems to me that the issue is one of training, both in how the ticketing system works (RG, NRCoC etc.) and how to address passengers.

Whist the examples that RJ uses are somewhat unusual, I have had numerous occasions on which staff have not understood basic ticketing. To give some examples:

I often have to travel via Eurostar and use London International (CIV) tickets from various stations. On one occasion I was using a Winchester -> London(CIV) ticket (route any permitted) to travel Winchester->Reading->Paddington->St.Pancras (on the underground). I was challenged by the Cross Country on-board staff who insisted that as there was a direct service Winchester->Waterloo I had to take that train. I explained that my route was valid and that having a bad back dragging a suitcase by my chosen route was far easier than via Waterloo. I was "let off" but told to use the correct route in future. It was even suggested that as I was getting such a good deal on the ticket, I could not use other routes :roll:

On another occasion I tried to buy (on board as no ticket facilities available at the time) St.Eth -> Camborne tickets for me and my then 2 year old son with a family railcard. I was refused as "he must be at least 5".

Lastly, I had an Anytime Single from Stansted Airport to Alton for a particular day which cleary displaying as valid until the next day. As a result of my flight being delayed I only made it into London itself and missed the last train down to Alton. Having spent the night in a hotel. I continued the next morning and confirmed with staff at Waterloo that I was ok. The on-board guard refused to accept my ticket and charged me for a new ticket. Even when I pointed out the validity date he said “it is the big date in the middle that counts”.

Now, are any of these “exceptional” or complex issues? Not to my mind. In all three cases I was treated as if I was deliberately trying to pay less than I should or travelling without a valid ticket. I was not treated in a rude or offensive manner, however, in all these cases other members of the public on board looked at me as if I were a criminal / low life etc.

If there are staff who refuse / cannot / do not understand even basic ticketing, what hope does RJ have?

Roy

 

[SS4]

I wonder how many guards do understand how to work out permitted routes or, if they can't work it out, give the passenger the benefit of the doubt?

I know it's their job to know but it's still kind to say when someone has done their job well, they may even get knighted like Alex Ferguson

 

[Flamingo]

Apropos of nothing, I had a guy a few weeks ago on a train from Paddington (Pad)-Bristol Temple Meads (Bri), he had split tickets at Didcot to Bath, the train didn't stop at Didcot, ching, £16.40 (I know it should have been £32, but he wasn't arguing so that was the cheapest for that time of the day).

After Bath, I am walking through again (unusual, I know), and I spot the same guy. I stop and say "I thought your ticket was to Bath?", his reply was "Yea, I have a Bth-Bri season ticket, I'm going to Bri". So, as his overall journey was Pad-Bri and he had a season-ticket in the mix, the split at Didcot was actually legal in his case, so I did him a refund.

Now, if I hadn't spotted him again, he had a valid combination, but hadn't told me the full story, so I had incorrectly charged him. He could have come on here moaning that "The stupid guard didn't know condition 19.c."

Now, another question to argue over, if he had been going to Bath, even though he was in possession of a season ticket, I would say that split would NOT have been valid, as his journey was not to Bri, so his season ticket would have been irrelevant.

 

[Roylang]

Apropos of nothing, I had a guy a few weeks ago on a train Pad-Bri, split tickets at Didcot to Bath, train didn't stop there, ching, £16.40 (I know it should have been £32, but he wasn't arguing so that was the cheapest for that time of the day).

After Bath, I am walking through again (unusual, I know), and I spot the same guy. I stop and say "I thought your ticket was to Bath?", his reply was "Yea, I have a Bth-Bri season ticket, I'm going to Bri". So, as his overall journey was Pad-Bri and he had a season-ticket in the mix, the split at Didcot was actually legal in his case, so I did him a refund.

Now, if I hadn't spotted him again, he had a valid combination, but hadn't told me the full story, so I had incorrectly charged him. He could have come on here moaning that "The stupid guard didn't know condition 19.c."

Now, another question to argue over, if he had been going to Bath, even though he was in possession of a season ticket, I would say that split would NOT have been valid, as his journey was not to Bri, so his season ticket would have been irrelevant.

But had he understood that his tickets were valid as a result of condition 19.c I would hope that he would have told you and you being a good guard knowing your stuff accepted that.

For me the issue is guards that do not even accept the basic rules (hence my post). There are very many good guards (the vast majority) but their image is tarnished by a few who seem not to bothered to understand the fundamentals.

As for whether he was only going to BRI or not, surely he could argue it was a BoJ making it legal even if he finished there?

Roy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder how many guards do understand how to work out permitted routes or, if they can't work it out, give the passenger the benefit of the doubt?

I know it's their job to know but it's still kind to say when someone has done their job well, they may even get knighted like Alex Ferguson

But given that some guards on here have said that they do not have/know of the Routeing Guide, surely this indicates that they are not being equipped by their TOC to even work it out if they understand how?

Regarding saying about staff doing well. I have posted here before that I was delayed on a FGW HST into London Paddington as a result of a horrendous storm. As a result I missed my Eurostar, however, the train manager went out of her way to help me. I emailed FGW to praise her and got a reply the gist of which was "tough, out of our control, you can't have compensation"! They made me feel it was not worth my effort to praise their staff - although in such a case I would again.

Roy

 

[RJ]

What do you expect to achieve by doing this? You've paid for an additional ticket. You are going to be dealing with Customer Service for a refund and possible compensation. Why give yourself extra grief by engaging in a conversation with a clearly unknowledgeable guard who is highly unlikely to believe you, from previous experience of staff from the same company?

I do not subscribe to the mentality that staff working for the same company are homogenous. She might have thought that I conceded that I was wrong by paying for a new ticket. If I responded, then if nothing else, at least she may have thought twice about whether or not she did the right thing. She did ask why I paid up, instead of refusing to pay and I said it was because I don't like going through the appeals process as it's long and tiresome.

In my opinion, part of the problem is that these staff look at me and won't entertain the idea that I might know things about tickets that they may never have come across in their careers. Most often, the staff who have hassled me appear to be in their 40s and gladly tell me that they've been in the job for 14/20 years. Given that I'm often half their age, they are happy to tell me that I'm arrogant because I counter their misconceptions with reference to the NRCoC. From my perspective, I think they're arrogant, because I spoon feed them the clauses which validate my tickets, but they abjectly refuse to investigate them for whatever reason.

I found it was the same thing when I used to approach guards before the train left to ask to buy a Priv ticket from them. This being in various parts of the country, not just on my commuting route. On numerous occasions, they looked at me and treated me as if I was a fare evader, telling me to buy from a TVM after I told them the ticket office was shut. One such member of staff grudgingly allowed be to board, but said he'd have me detrained at the next stop (with no ticket issuing facilities) if the Visa Debit card I gave him declined. I see other staff reporting this notion of a railway fraternity but in my experience, I've been treated less favourably by a number of guards for no apparent reason that I can logically deduce.

That said, there have been a load of staff who have treated me fairly. They see me asking to pay, they see the Priv and they permit me to board without first trying to fob me off. So it's not all bad experiences.

Even when I was on my First Class ALR, getting access to the FC accommodation sometimes required me to pass an inquisition and being asked to show my ticket before I was allowed to sit down. I made a point of dressing smartly, so I wonder why this kept happening. I'd never seen other passengers treated in this manner. I worked as an on board caterer on an intercity TOC and I'd never dream of treating any passenger like that. If I saw anyone I suspected was a fare evader (and there were loads of them on certain routes where stops were close together) I'd do one of two things. I sometimes asked the guard to do a ticket inspection, if they were in the right place. If this was not practical, I would announce the catering offer, adding that everyone should leave their FC tickets on the table for inspection as I passed through. No one had endure any face to face humiliation and it was very effective in purging the carriages of the chancers. I often got positive feedback from holders of valid tickets.

The railway is supposed to be a pro customer environment, so why are so many staff terrible at dealing with people in a way that doesn't make them feel bad?

 

[Flamingo]

As for whether he was only going to BRI or not, surely he could argue it was a BoJ making it legal even if he finished there?

He could argue it - I probably wouldn't accept it, though. A BoJ on a through ticket is one thing. Leaving at a station where your ticket terminates and is your "home" station is your journey coming to an end, IMHO.