False details and old ticket

[RickyG]

Evening,

Just been on the way home from Uni (Manchester Piccadilly - Levenshulme) and I was in a bit of a rush so didn't have time to get a ticket (in hindsight, wish I would've waited). I would've happily paid for a ticket on the train however I didn't see the conductor and the carriages didn't allow for the conductor to walk all the way down the train.

Anyway I've got off at Levenshulme to be met by a load of conductors, I didn't think anything of it and I panicked and grabbed an old ticket out my wallet (I do usually pay for the train, this is the only time this term I hadn't bought a ticket - the conductor who pulled me saw I had a wallet full), obviously I've then been pulled aside by the conductor, stupidly I've panicked when he's asked for my details and I've given him false ones as I am obviously a student who really doesn't want a fine, and I was naive enough to think Id get away with it (again, in hindsight, I should've just been honest, but I panicked and felt a bit hard done by as I usually always have a ticket - I have 3 tickets for the same route I have purchased in the past week, for example).

I've been told to expect a letter, at the very least I obviously expect a fine I just don't want it to go any further, I've never been in trouble before this is my first time.

What should I expect?

In the meantime shall I write to Northern Rail and apologise and just admit it was a stupid mistake in which I panicked?

Thanks in advance.

 

[yorkie]

Anyway I've got off at Levenshulme to be met by a load of conductors

They won't have been conductors (not that it matters)

I didn't think anything of it and I panicked and grabbed an old ticket out my wallet

That's sounds like it is likely to be pretty conclusive evidence of attempting to avoid payment of the fare.

(I do usually pay for the train, this is the only time this term I hadn't bought a ticket - the conductor who pulled me saw I had a wallet full)

In that case it's likely they will only be taking this one incident into account (it would have been more serious if there was evidence of multiple occasions of attempting to avoid payment of the fare).

, obviously I've then been pulled aside by the conductor, stupidly I've panicked when he's asked for my details and I've given him false ones as I am obviously a student who really doesn't want a fine

That makes it rather more serious.

I've been told to expect a letter, at the very least I expect a fine I just don't want it to go any further, I've never been in trouble before this is my first time.

What should I expect?

You expect a fine, and you're right, the outcome will be a fine (assuming, of course, they are able to take you to Court - it's unclear if they have been able to obtain your correct details or not - and assuming a guilty plead/verdict).

In the meantime shall I write to Northern Rail and apologise and just admit it was a stupid mistake in which I panicked?

Thanks in advance.

Well, it's not for us to say what you should do, but I agree that settling the matter out of court would be better than being issued with a fine and a criminal record.

But be aware that Northern are not in any way obliged to settle out of court, and may prosecute you regardless.

I cannot say what would happen, but I am aware of several people who have posted on this forum in a similar position to you and did settle with Northern, and for less than the fine would have been. The threat of a criminal record may be of a bigger concern than any potential fine, depending on what sort of job you are aiming for...

 

[RickyG]

They won't have been conductors (not that it matters)
That's sounds like it is likely to be pretty conclusive evidence of attempting to avoid payment of the fare.

In that case it's likely they will only be taking this one incident into account (it would have been more serious if there was evidence of multiple occasions of attempting to avoid payment of the fare).

That makes it rather more serious.

You expect a fine, and you're right, the outcome will be a fine (assuming, of course, they are able to take you to Court - it's unclear if they have been able to obtain your correct details or not - and assuming a guilty plead/verdict).

Well, it's not for us to say what you should do, but I agree that settling the matter out of court would be better than being issued with a fine and a criminal record.

But be aware that Northern are not in any way obliged to settle out of court, and may prosecute you regardless.

I cannot say what would happen, but I am aware of several people who have posted on this forum in a similar position to you and did settle with Northern, and for less than the fine would have been. The threat of a criminal record may be of a bigger concern than any potential fine, depending on what sort of job you are aiming for...

I gave them my details in the end, like I said, I panicked, absolutely stupid I know.

Do I wait for a response from NR then or do I write to them in the meantime?

The several ppl you mention, were they very similar cases or had they not lied about their details?

As well as the old ticket he took off me I have two tickets for the same route that I have used in the past week (I've only been back at Uni since last Monday) so it shows today was just an act of stupidity.

I'll take the fine now I don't mind that, I can't afford it but I'll pay it to avoid a C.R

Thank you for the response.

 

[30907]

Evening, In the meantime shall I write to Northern Rail and apologise and just admit it was a stupid mistake in which I panicked?

Thanks in advance.

I don't usually post on here, but I think the general advice is to wait for the letter to arrive and then do the apologising.

 

[RickyG]

I don't usually post on here, but I think the general advice is to wait for the letter to arrive and then do the apologising.

I thought the same myself but what if I don't get the opportunity.

I'm hoping the fact I have tickets from that route to show I usually do pay will work in my favour I'm just hoping they don't give me an opportunity to say look I've made a mistake and apologise as a criminal record would be disastrous.

 

[bb21]

I thought the same myself but what if I don't get the opportunity.

I'm hoping the fact I have tickets from that route to show I usually do pay will work in my favour I'm just hoping they don't give me an opportunity to say look I've made a mistake and apologise as a criminal record would be disastrous.

It is quite typical for the letter to take up to six weeks to come through. If you desperately want to avoid the dreaded wait at least give them a couple of weeks before ringing, as you need to give the RPI time to submit his report.

Will the other tickets make a difference? I doubt it but it won't hurt to give it a try.

If this is genuinely your first offence, then it is likely that an out-of-court settlement would be accepted. There is no guarantee however and Northern may well decide to make an example of you given that the evidence is pretty damning. Be warned, if you are caught again then expect the book to be thrown at you.

 

[455driver]

You say-

"grabbed an old ticket out my wallet (I do usually pay for the train, this is the only time this term I hadn't bought a ticket - the conductor who pulled me saw I had a wallet full), "

But all that means is that you could have collected a load of tickets out of the bins to show the RPIs just in case you are stopped, it doesnt actually prove anything, I could probably pick 50 tickets up tomorrow.

Wait for the letter, read and understand what it is saying/asking you to do and then come back on here. There is nothing to do except wait, contacting them wont really speed anything up but might show you are desperate/pushy.

 

[RickyG]

Thank you all for your replies.

Yes this is definitely my first offence never been caught without ticket before.

Obviously the fact that I lied hasn't helped my cause at all but will this mean they will dish out a harder punishment or will the fact that it's my first time regardless of whether I've deceived them help them come to a decision?

Also what factors can have an impact on their decision making process (if any), ie, the fact that it was the first stop of the journey, will that matter? Or that there were a good 6/7 others that got caught?

T.I.A

 

[bb21]

Thank you all for your replies.

Yes this is definitely my first offence never been caught without ticket before.

Obviously the fact that I lied hasn't helped my cause at all but will this mean they will dish out a harder punishment or will the fact that it's my first time regardless of whether I've deceived them help them come to a decision?

Also what factors can have an impact on their decision making process (if any), ie, the fact that it was the first stop of the journey, will that matter? Or that there were a good 6/7 others that got caught?

T.I.A

Each case will be considered in its own merit. Lying (which is a more serious Regulation of Railways Act Section 5(3c) offence) probably hasn't helped, but an out-of-court settlement is usually a possibility if the price is right, especially for first offence.

 

[RickyG]

contacting them wont really speed anything up but might show you are desperate/pushy.

So I assume you would advise against this?

 

[yorkie]

The several ppl you mention, were they very similar cases or had they not lied about their details?

Each case is different, but I think some did, yes.

As well as the old ticket he took off me I have two tickets for the same route that I have used in the past week (I've only been back at Uni since last Monday) so it shows today was just an act of stupidity.

As I said they are likely to only be going to be prosecuting for the one incident.

You are right that if there were more incidents they would take it more seriously, one particular case springs to mind where Greater Anglia insisted on a huge fee, I think 4-figures (IIRC), because someone was doing a huge commute and there was evidence that they had done it many times before.

I'll take the fine now I don't mind that, I can't afford it but I'll pay it to avoid a C.R

Thank you for the response.

I don't think you've quite read what I said. The fine is issued by the Court if & when you are found guilty, and that will take time, you can't take the fine now.

I think what you mean is you want to settle out of court now?

People often say to "wait for the letter" - this is partly because they may forget about you (unlikely, but possible) and partly because they might, in their letter, state an amount they would be willing to settle for. At present they have no idea if you are willing to settle, and you don't know how keen they are to settle either.

It can be better to wait.

But if you want the matter to be over sooner rather than later, then I don't see why you can't write to them now.

But any letter you write and any action you take is probably best run past your solicitor first.

Thank you all for your replies.

Yes this is definitely my first offence never been caught without ticket before.

Obviously the fact that I lied hasn't helped my cause at all but will this mean they will dish out a harder punishment or will the fact that it's my first time regardless of whether I've deceived them help them come to a decision?

As I said before, I don't think there's any evidence that you have done this before so I don't think it will be taken any more seriously than for a first offence.

Also what factors can have an impact on their decision making process (if any), ie, the fact that it was the first stop of the journey, will that matter?

Certainly not. Northern Rail have prosecuted passengers over a 10p difference in fares. London Midland issued a Penalty Fare (with a threat of prosecution if not paid) to a passenger over a 0p difference in fares.

The number of stops is certainly irrelevant. My train to/from London is usually only one stop.

Or that there were a good 6/7 others that got caught?

I don't see how that the number caught on that train has any relevance (though I'd be shocked if 6/7 people all tried showing previously used tickets and gave fake addresses, but, anyway...), but if they have a large number of cases, they may not be planning on taking hundreds to court, and may be quite happy to accept any easy payments they can get, and then pursue the non-payers.

As I said before, I have heard quite a few people successfully settle with Northern before. If you want details, try a search.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I cannot say what would happen, but I am aware of several people who have posted on this forum in a similar position to you and did settle with Northern, and for less than the fine would have been. The threat of a criminal record may be of a bigger concern than any potential fine, depending on what sort of job you are aiming for...

The several ppl you mention, were they very similar cases or had they not lied about their details?

I have been connected with cases where passengers have given false names and/or addresses. That deceitful act has (if I recall correctly) always worsened the outcome for them; I can't recall anyone who gave false details who achieved an out-of-court settlement which was less than the fine applied for, and I can't see why a passenger giving false details would be given the opportunity to settle for less that the fine applied for.

 

[RickyG]

I have been connected with cases where passengers have given false names and/or addresses. That deceitful act has (if I recall correctly) always worsened the outcome for them; I can't recall anyone who gave false details who achieved an out-of-court settlement which was less than the fine applied for, and I can't see why a passenger giving false details would be given the opportunity to settle for less that the fine applied for.

What do you mean by the last part sorry for being thick.

Do you mean it's going to cost a fortune, or I have no chance of an OOCS.

 

[cuccir]

What do you mean by the last part sorry for being thick.

Do you mean it's going to cost a fortune, or I have no chance of an OOCS.

I think Dave's post indicates that some people were given the opportunity for an out of court settlement with Northern in this instance, but that the amount was always equivalent to the fine they would have been set by the court. In other words, the payment avoids the criminal record, but not the financial penalty.

To be short, start saving now. We can't tell you the exact figure but you would expect a settlement or fine to be in the order of hundreds.

 

[RickyG]

I think Dave's post indicates that some people were given the opportunity for an out of court settlement with Northern in this instance, but that the amount was always equivalent to the fine they would have been set by the court. In other words, the payment avoids the criminal record, but not the financial penalty.

To be short, start saving now. We can't tell you the exact figure but you would expect a settlement or fine to be in the order of hundreds.

Thank you for clearing that up.

I don't mind saving and paying whatever fine I may face I deserve it after all as it'll be a lesson learnt albeit an expensive one.


One thing I've been thinking about re: sending a letter of apology is if I was to leave it and wait the 6 or so weeks for a letter to be sent to me was will that show arrogance and the wrong attitude? Will the company think the fact that I've not been in touch shows I've not understood how much trouble I am in. I'm obviously guilty so I'm not going to be claiming I'm innocent I just want it over and done with or to have a decent idea as to what I may be facing as the next month or so is going to be torture. It was an uncharacteristic mistake. I've just started my 4th year of Uni and I've got deadline after deadline and I really don't want this 5 minutes of stupidity on my mind all the time.

Also, worse case scenario, they intend to prosecute and I get a conviction, will that be on my record forever?

 

[Chapeltom]

I'm surprised at the OP managed to even board a train without a ticket considering that most platforms have some kind of manual barrier now at Manchester Picc.

I have known of occasions albeit at less busier times, i.e. Saturday evening the guard has come through the train straight away/started inspections from the front/even before train has departed to catch the Levenshulme chancers, the guards who do this seem to sell a lot of tickets!!!

Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel seem to have a problem with chancers.

 

[island]

Thank you for clearing that up.

I don't mind saving and paying whatever fine I may face I deserve it after all as it'll be a lesson learnt albeit an expensive one.

If you get a fine, then it means you will have been convicted of a criminal offence.

Also, worse case scenario, they intend to prosecute and I get a conviction, will that be on my record forever?

Convictions are considered spent after a period of time and need not be disclosed for most purposes after this. For a conviction resulting in a non-custodial sentence, I believe it is after five years you do not need to disclose it for most purposes.

 

[evoluzione]

I'm surprised at the OP managed to even board a train without a ticket considering that most platforms have some kind of manual barrier now at Manchester Picc.

I have known of occasions albeit at less busier times, i.e. Saturday evening the guard has come through the train straight away/started inspections from the front/even before train has departed to catch the Levenshulme chancers, the guards who do this seem to sell a lot of tickets!!!

Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel seem to have a problem with chancers.

The look of horror on people faces when I enter the front coach in full uniform while travelling pass home on a Levenshulme & Heaton Chapel stopper

 

[RickyG]

If you get a fine, then it means you will have been convicted of a criminal offence.

Convictions are considered spent after a period of time and need not be disclosed for most purposes after this. For a conviction resulting in a non-custodial sentence, I believe it is after five years you do not need to disclose it for most purposes.

Thanks for the reply.

Am I right in assuming I'm not going to get away with a hefty fine and a very hard slap on the wrist?

 

[island]

I am not trying to be pedantic but it is important to be very precise in legal matters such as this. A fine is a financial penalty that only a court can issue. It is possible that you may be able to make the matter go away by paying a sum of money which will be many times the price of the ticket you should have bought, but it would not be a fine, merely an agreement between you and the Train Operating Company.

There remains the question of how they track you down without your name and address.

 

[RickyG]

I am not trying to be pedantic but it is important to be very precise in legal matters such as this. A fine is a financial penalty that only a court can issue. It is possible that you may be able to make the matter go away by paying a sum of money which will be many times the price of the ticket you should have bought, but it would not be a fine, merely an agreement between you and the Train Operating Company.

There remains the question of how they track you down without your name and address.

Ahh okay I understand, the agreement is what I'm praying for then, to save my education etc

Sorry for not being clear I gave him my details as soon as I realised how much trouble I was in, I panicked at first and was dishonest without thinking as I'd never been in a situation like that before and I didn't want to get in any trouble (ridiculously stupid, I know, and ironic considering the complete mess I'm in now).

 

[455driver]

Thanks for the reply.

Am I right in assuming I'm not going to get away with a hefty fine and a very hard slap on the wrist?

Only time (and the letter) will tell, until they send you the letter saying what they are thinking of doing with you, whether its a Byelaw offence (possible fine but no criminal record) or a Regulation of Railways Act (possible fine and criminal record) nobody knows.

Normally they tell you what you did wrong and then ask you for your version of events, only then will they decide what the are going to do whether that be a slap on the wrist and an offer to settle for an agreed amount (not a fine) or a visit to court.

Just sit tight and dont worry as there is nothing you can do until then.

 

[RickyG]

Only time (and the letter) will tell, until they send you the letter saying what they are thinking of doing with you, whether its a Byelaw offence (possible fine but no criminal record) or a Regulation of Railways Act (possible fine and criminal record) nobody knows.

Normally they tell you what you did wrong and then ask you for your version of events, only then will they decide what the are going to do whether that be a slap on the wrist and an offer to settle for an agreed amount (not a fine) or a visit to court.

Just sit tight and dont worry as there is nothing you can do until then.

Thanks again for your advice you've all been great, extremely helpful.

Everyone's saying wait for the letter so I suppose that's all I can do, it's just going to be an extremely long and torturous wait I could be doing without at this time but it's my own fault.

Will they definitely let me give my side of the story or in some cases do they not bother?

Am I right in assuming it'll be Northern Rail that solely deal with this or not?

 

[RickyG]

I received my letter today after a very, very long 4 weeks.

It basically asks for my version of events, so I'm going to be honest admit it was a daft mistake and just hope they are lenient considering it's my first offence.

In the box it mentions Railways and Tramways Reg of Railways Act 1889 and it's been sent by the debt recovery and prosecutions unit.

 

[cuccir]

This means that they are considering prosecution under the stronger legislation. This confirms that you will expect to pay a higher cost of settlement, if they offer to settle (which would still be in their financial interests).

 

[Tibbs]

This means that they are considering prosecution under the stronger legislation. This confirms that you will expect to pay a higher cost of settlement, if they offer to settle (which would still be in their financial interests).

I thought prior evidence of these letters showed that everybody gets the reference to RoRA in the letter from Northern Rail, regardless of circumstance.

There was even a discussion as to whether they could prosecute under section 18 afterwards if it wasn't mentioned in the letter originally sent out.

As with all of these sorts of letters that go out, they always list the most serious offence and the most serious sanction.

 

[RickyG]

This means that they are considering prosecution under the stronger legislation. This confirms that you will expect to pay a higher cost of settlement, if they offer to settle (which would still be in their financial interests).

Thanks.

I didn't expect much else other than this letter like I say I hope in this instance they'll see that I've learnt my lesson already.

How much are we looking at, and do I offer to settle it out of court with a cheque enclosed with my reply to this letter?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone?

 

[bb21]

If you are hoping to settle, all you need to do is to express so in your letter, and they should write back in response saying how much they are looking at.

There is no need to enclose a cheque. For a start, you don't really know how much they would like.

It is possible that you could ring them and discuss the matter after a week or so after posting your response, and some forum members have had success doing that, but there is no compulsion to do so either.

 

[RickyG]

If you are hoping to settle, all you need to do is to express so in your letter, and they should write back in response saying how much they are looking at.

There is no need to enclose a cheque. For a start, you don't really know how much they would like.

It is possible that you could ring them and discuss the matter after a week or so after posting your response, and some forum members have had success doing that, but there is no compulsion to do so either.

Okay thank you, very helpful once again!

 

[RickyG]

Hi,

I replied to the letter I received from NR in November however I have heard nothing back since.

Which number shall I contact to see what will be happening, and does anyone have any idea why it may be taking so long, will they have been busy over Xmas/NY or is it because it may be being taken further

Thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi,

I replied to the letter I received from NR in November however I have heard nothing back since.

Which number shall I contact to see what will be happening, and does anyone have any idea why it may be taking so long, will they have been busy over Xmas/NY or is it because it may be being taken further

Thanks.

Anyone