Fantasy: How would you make a Trans-London Intercity service?

[tetudo boy]

So I've found a piece of interesting history. There seemed to once be an experimental service called "London Crosslink" (NOT Crossrail!) ran by Anglia Railways which lasted from 2000 to 2002. It was intended to get people past London from north to south without changing trains. It ended due to low ridership. It is a sort of Trans-London Intercity express service running from Norwich/Ipswich to Basingstoke. It was also intended to run on the WCML at some time, but I don't think it ever did.

For inspirational reasons, I will show the (intended) map here:



So, what would happen if more TOC's did this?

I have to admit I'm not the first person to open suggestions for Trans-London Intercity express service. This thread is one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/would-you-use-a-trans-london-service.157565/

It's a topic worth reviving, plus, more people need to be aware of this, seeing how the ridership made a dramatic rise since the early 2000s.

So, what services would you want to see?

Note that this thread is Fantasy, so Speculation doesn't have to apply.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm not clear why convoluted stopping services between generally medium-sized towns would be described as an 'inter city' and 'express'.

Doesn't this really fall into the 'random links between nowhere-in-particular and somewhere-else' with no obvious commercial or social affinity category?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't this really fall into the 'random links between nowhere-in-particular and somewhere-else' with no obvious commercial or social affinity' category?

It does sort of fall into the same trap as "Northern hourly services from everywhere to everywhere else", I guess.

That said, the Southern service from the south WCML via Kensington Olympia to Clapham Jn is very well-used. (I say Clapham Jn because it is almost empty south of there).

 

[tetudo boy]

I'm not clear why convoluted stopping services between generally medium-sized towns would be described as an 'inter city' and 'express'.

Doesn't this really fall into the 'random links between nowhere-in-particular and somewhere-else' with no obvious commercial or social affinity' category?

It's sort of intercity because it runs through two mainlines, something which this thread will go into. Then again, it does fall into that nowhere to nowhere category a bit.

 

[D365]

Doesn't this really fall into the 'random links between nowhere-in-particular and somewhere-else' with no obvious commercial or social affinity' category?

Absolutely.

The point of Crossrail wasn't necessarily to link Shenfield to Paddington, or Slough to Woolwich. Aside from (eventually) providing 24tph through London, what Crossrail will do is eliminate the need to turn a majority of trains at Paddington and Liverpool Street.

With low ridership, all that Crosslink did was soak up valuable North London Line paths. Thankfully the Class 170s could be redeployed quickly elsewhere on the Anglia network. On the other hand, as @Bletchleyite alludes to, Southern's West London Line service is incredibly popular.

 

[Ianno87]

Absolutely.

The point of Crossrail wasn't necessarily to link Shenfield to Paddington, or Slough to Woolwich. Aside from (eventually) providing 24tph through London, what Crossrail will do is eliminate the need to turn a majority of trains at Paddington and Liverpool Street.

With low ridership, all that Crosslink did was soak up valuable North London Line paths. Thankfully the Class 170s could be redeployed quickly elsewhere on the Anglia network. On the other hand, as @Bletchleyite alludes to, Southern's West London Line service is incredibly popular.

If you could path a *fast* Birmingham-Coventry-MK-Watford-West London Line-Clapham-Gatwick-Brighton service, it would be hugely popular.

Pathing reality, however, makes this impractical.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If you could path a *fast* Birmingham-Coventry-MK-Watford-West London Line-Clapham-Gatwick-Brighton service, it would be hugely popular.

Pathing reality, however, makes this impractical.

Maybe post-HS2 it could be fitted in on the WCML, however not sure about path to Brighton. I agree it would be popular though.

 

[tetudo boy]

Maybe post-HS2 it could be fitted in on the WCML, however not sure about path to Brighton. I agree it would be popular though.

Post-HS2 seems to be too late.

Using the Chiltern line is an option. Using the Acton to Northolt line as a connection to the West London Line.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Maybe post-HS2 it could be fitted in on the WCML, however not sure about path to Brighton. I agree it would be popular though.

There is definetley no space on the BML at the minute. This service would only be possible if Croydon/Windmill Bridge works go ahead.

 

[JonathanH]

There is definetley no space on the BML at the minute. This service would only be possible if Croydon/Windmill Bridge works go ahead.

It wouldn't be possible even if those works go ahead because the main problem it has is at Balham - otherwise it has to use the slow lines which even if the Croydon works are done are congested between Croydon and Purley, perhaps more so.

It is noticeably absent from the post-HS2 aspirations for the WCML.

Using the Chiltern line is an option. Using the Acton to Northolt line as a connection to the West London Line.

What connection is that? There is no chance of routeing it via the Greenford, Ealing and Acton Wells - it would be terribly slow and there would be no path available through Ealing.

Post-HS2 seems to be too late.

Why is post-HS2 too late? That is the earliest that a WCML path might become available.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It wouldn't be possible even if those works go ahead because the main problem it has is at Balham - otherwise it has to use the slow lines which even if the Croydon works are done are congested between Croydon and Purley, perhaps more so.

It is noticeably absent from the post-HS2 aspirations for the WCML.


What connection is that? There is no chance of routeing it via the Greenford, Ealing and Acton Wells - it would be terribly slow anyway.

The slow lines between Croydon and Purley are not as congested as the fast lines, still very congested but not as congested. The only critical section in terms of capacity is travelling in the Up Direction between South Croydon and East Croydon.

Also I think a path for crossing at Balham, while it would be difficult to achieve would be possible. I don't think it would be the best use of capacity though.

And if there is a really strong desire for the service to run, you could always send it via Streatham Hill which does have spare capacity and have it run through the remodelled Norwood Junction station, and then onto the fast lines at East Croydon. Again, only possible after the Windmill Bridge works, and probably not the best use of capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

The slow lines between Croydon and Purley are not as congested as the fast lines, still very congested but not as congested. The only critical section in terms of capacity is travelling in the Up Direction between South Croydon and East Croydon.

Maybe not congested in a timetabled sense, but when a split or join goes wrong at Purley, it can cause delays to Redhill line services. The crossing moves at South Croydon are also very slow.

Once a train on the fast line is clear of East Croydon going south, I would argue that there is no congestion at all because it is basically operated as a two-track plain line railway to Gatwick Airport. In the southbound evening peak, no Redhill line services cross fast to slow at Stoats Nest Junction - only the northbound Horsham to Peterborough service. I get the impression that the planners like it that way.

 

[MotCO]

From the dicussions above, Gatwick seems to be a no-no. Instead of Gatwick, what about Heathrow as a traffic objective? The map in #1 shows an Ipswich to Basingstoke line - why not make it a Crossrail alternative route from Ipswich via Stratford and north London, Willesden and out on the GWR lines to Heathrow? In a similar way the Northampton line could also feed into it.

The only problem is I don't know if there are any actual links in place for this service to access the GWR.

 

[JonathanH]

The map in #1 shows an Ipswich to Basingstoke line - why not make it a Crossrail alternative route from Ipswich via Stratford and north London, Willesden and out on the GWR lines to Heathrow?

Why does there need to be a 'Crossrail alternative route'? It would be in no way competitive on timings at all - frankly leaving Heathrow on a service via Willesden, you would still be somewhere like Hampstead stuck behind a stopping service at the equivalent point on the journey to when you would have reached Liverpool Street.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Maybe not congested in a timetabled sense, but when a split or join goes wrong at Purley, it can cause delays to Redhill line services. The crossing moves at South Croydon are also very slow.

Once a train on the fast line is clear of East Croydon going south, I would argue that there is no congestion at all because it is basically operated as a two-track plain line railway to Gatwick Airport. In the southbound evening peak, no Redhill line services cross fast to slow at Stoats Nest Junction - only the northbound Horsham to Peterborough service. I get the impression that the planners like it that way.

However the sheer volume of trains that use the fast line/quarry lines means even the slightest delay can cause a huge knock effect. You could probably squeeze a few more train down the fast lines, but at the expense of performance, which is already fragile as it is. So I would argue it is congested but in a different way to the slow lines.

 

[MotCO]

Why does there need to be a 'Crossrail alternative route'? It would be in no way competitive on timings at all - frankly leaving Heathrow on a service via Willesden, you would still be somewhere like Hampstead stuck behind a stopping service at the equivalent point on the journey to when you would have reached Liverpool Street.

I meant 'Crossrail alternative' insofar as it would open up additional links. If I was going to Heathrow with a load of luggage, I would rather not have to change trains - I woild not mind if the train was slower.

Does it have to be fast? It may call at a number of stations at the northern end (both Ipswich and Northampton), but could be semi-fast as it approaches the northern and western edges of London.

 

[Ianno87]

I meant 'Crossrail alternative' insofar as it would open up additional links. If I was going to Heathrow with a load of luggage, I would rather not have to change trains - I woild not mind if the train was slower.

Does it have to be fast? It may call at a number of stations at the northern end (both Ipswich and Northampton), but could be semi-fast as it approaches the northern and western edges of London.

If it's not fast, people will just drive instead.

 

[30907]

From the dicussions above, Gatwick seems to be a no-no. Instead of Gatwick, what about Heathrow as a traffic objective? The map in #1 shows an Ipswich to Basingstoke line - why not make it a Crossrail alternative route from Ipswich via Stratford and north London, Willesden and out on the GWR lines to Heathrow? In a similar way the Northampton line could also feed into it.

The only problem is I don't know if there are any actual links in place for this service to access the GWR.

The North London line has virtually no spare capacity; you can access the GW Reliefs at Acton but they will be post Crossrail almost as busy.
Watford to the GWML isn't possible without a reversal.

Back on the general theme: there is no one dominant cross-London traffic flow that would justify avoiding central London.

 

[higthomas]

Ok, so I'm going to ignore all commercial, pathing, demand, and rolling stock realities, get my crayons out and have a go at answering this question.

I would add medium distance as opposed to full intercity services, as I feel they're the locations most likely to work (well, given the question). They would use the following stations outside London:

• Oxford-Reading-Slough-Ealing Broadway
• Alexandra Palace-Stevenage-Cambridge
• Milton Keynes-Bletchley-Hemel Hempstead-Watford Junction
• East Croydon - Gatwick - Haywards Heath - Brighton
• Ipswich - Colchester - Chelmsford - She field
• Basingstoke - Woking
• Bedford - Luton -LAP - St Albans

Where trains pass through the following London traversal stations, they would stop there:

• Willseden Junction
• Clapham Junction
• West Hampstead
• Highbury and Islington
• Stratford

I would add the following services, all at 1tph, (but combining well to make 1tp30m on common sections.):

• Oxford - NLL - GOBLIN - Cambridge
• Milton Keynes - WLL - Brighton
• Ipswich -NLL - Oxford
• Ipswich - NLL - WLL - Basingstoke
• Brighton - ELL - H & I (reverse) - NLL - Ipswich
• Basingstoke - Clapham (reverse) - (New Kew Junction) - Dudding Hill Line - Bedford
• Basingstoke - WLL - Milton Keynes
• Bedford - Dudding Hill - Oxford
• Milton Keynes - NLL - Ipswich

 

[JonathanH]

I would add the following services, all at 1tph, (but combining well to make 1tp30m on common sections.):

• Oxford - NLL - GOBLIN - Cambridge
• Milton Keynes - WLL - Brighton
• Ipswich -NLL - Oxford
• Ipswich - NLL - WLL - Basingstoke
• Brighton - ELL - H & I (reverse) - NLL - Ipswich
• Basingstoke - Clapham (reverse) - (New Kew Junction) - Dudding Hill Line - Bedford
• Basingstoke - WLL - Milton Keynes
• Bedford - Dudding Hill - Oxford
• Milton Keynes - NLL - Ipswich

Oxford - NLL - GOBLIN - Cambridge
If it was that easy, would we be building EWR? Infrastructure problem with getting from Cambridge to the Gospel Oak line - double reversal at Alexandre Palace / Ferme Park. You might have to go via Temple Mills / Lea Valley in practice.

Milton Keynes - WLL - Brighton
Existed once - killed off by the fact that it was a short train on a busy route which had to cross fast to slow at Balham.

Ipswich -NLL - Oxford
Very slow to traverse the North London Line.

Ipswich - NLL - WLL - Basingstoke
Presumably this would run via Chertsey.

Brighton - ELL - H & I (reverse) - NLL - Ipswich
This is going to need the line beyond Highbury and Islington to be signalled for the reversal, presumably somewhere near Camden Road

Basingstoke - Clapham (reverse) - (New Kew Junction) - Dudding Hill Line - Bedford
If the last stop is going to be Woking, why wouldn't it just go via Chertsey. Also, the easier way to do this may be to go through Thameslink crossing at Wimbledon or via the SLL link and Loughborough Junction.

Basingstoke - WLL - Milton Keynes
Might one day be easier changing at Oxford. Again, this has to go Chertsey or maybe East Putney. However, the East Putney route requires a complete cross on the flat at Wimbledon westward and Wandsworth Town eastward which isn't going to happen.

Bedford - Dudding Hill - Oxford
This is what EWR is for.

Milton Keynes - NLL - Ipswich
I wonder if things would have been different if Anglia had managed to get this off the drawing board before the Basingstoke service.

As acknowledged, none of these are going to happen. Each uses infrastructure that doesn't really exist fir the volume of services.

I note three services from Ipswich - that is as many services as currently run from there to London. I suggest that the ambitions are a bit too great.

While this is just crayoning, building a market for any of these would take time and not carry the concentrated loads that go to London. The risk for anyone relying on these services to get to work is that they get culled through lack of demand.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The service i and others might find useful is a SouthEastern journey onward to Southern or South Western Railway all 3rd rail, links to Reading via Redhill and Tonbridge were talked about a small redesign of the old Eurostar flyover into Waterloo could allow SE services head towards Southampton or Clapham Junction with Southern in mind.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd run via Kenny Olympia to Brighton, perhaps from Manchester or even Scotland...

Oh, wait.

 

[D365]

Post-HS2 seems to be too late.

Using the Chiltern line is an option. Using the Acton to Northolt line as a connection to the West London Line.

Your statement contradicts itself. Acton to Greenford isn’t available due to HS2 construction.

Also, ”too late” for what? You said this is a fantasy thread.

 

[swt_passenger]

The service i and others might find useful is a SouthEastern journey onward to Southern or South Western Railway all 3rd rail, links to Reading via Redhill and Tonbridge were talked about a small redesign of the old Eurostar flyover into Waterloo could allow SE services head towards Southampton or Clapham Junction with Southern in mind.

A small redesign? All but impossible - please try looking at where all the other lines in the area pass over the SWML...

But even if practical, diverting an existing train away from Victoria (because there are no spare paths anywhere) towards the SW. Which existing service gets binned, and whereabouts is the origin in SE land where you find a whole trainload of people who want to go to the SW?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

A small redesign? All but impossible - please try looking at where all the other lines in the area pass over the SWML...

But even if practical, diverting an existing train away from Victoria (because there are no spare paths anywhere) towards the SW. Which existing service gets binned, and whereabouts is the origin in SE land where you find a whole trainload of people who want to go to the SW?

Someone is taking this too seriously, the OP said Fantasy not speculative ideas. There are plenty of passenger who'll find it useful once established. I was thinking of starting small like Bromley South to Woking or Clapham Junction for connectivity purposes. But if they prove successful make them longer distance as required

 

[swt_passenger]

If you could path a *fast* Birmingham-Coventry-MK-Watford-West London Line-Clapham-Gatwick-Brighton service, it would be hugely popular.

Pathing reality, however, makes this impractical.

But even then, on any given existing departure from Birmingham, how many passengers are going all the way across London? I think a majority will still want Euston. And of those who are crossing London, how many want the SN route, rather than SE, or SWR, or C2C, etc etc, or places reached directly by LU.

It generally works now as a multiple hub and spoke system. I don’t believe more cross London direct links actually achieve much benefit, the majority of people would still need to interchange somewhere, and the zone 1 termini are probably all better connected.

 

[tetudo boy]

Your statement contradicts itself. Acton to Greenford isn’t available due to HS2 construction.

Also, ”too late” for what? You said this is a fantasy thread.

When I mean "too late" I mean that 2026 is too late. Nevermind, Chiltern was a bad idea. We'll just have to risk using the WCML if this service ever happens.

 

[D365]

When I mean "too late" I mean that 2026 is too late. Nevermind, Chiltern was a bad idea. We'll just have to risk using the WCML if this service ever happens.

You need to wait for HS2 for there to be any chance of WCML paths being available.

 

[backontrack]

It's an interesting topic, because the pandemic does give people reason to want to avoid interchanges in central London. Will this still be an incentive post-vaccine? I think perhaps not, but London stations are only going to get busier, and I don't think commuter flows are going to be completely eradicated.

London Crosslink doesn't seem to really represent any major flows. (Like...who in East Anglia wants to go to Basingstoke or Feltham?)

Perhaps it's all about connecting Stratford/Stratford International to the WCML. That's actually one place where the infrastructure kind of exists (the NLL) to suit a potential flow, from Stratford to Watford Junction/Milton Keynes, although I don't know how popular that would be - or if it's even possible to path considering the present logjam north of Euston. There's no need to connect Stratford to the ECML, because you've already got St Pancras for that.

I'd argue that...there's not really much scope for a trans-London service; certainly not an InterCity one.

 

[Ianno87]

But even then, on any given existing departure from Birmingham, how many passengers are going all the way across London? I think a majority will still want Euston. And of those who are crossing London, how many want the SN route, rather than SE, or SWR, or C2C, etc etc, or places reached directly by LU.

It generally works now as a multiple hub and spoke system. I don’t believe more cross London direct links actually achieve much benefit, the majority of people would still need to interchange somewhere, and the zone 1 termini are probably all better connected.

It would be one where no single flow is particularly dominant, but there would be lots of smaller, overlapping flows. Croydon, Gatwick and Brighton are pretty big demand drivers - no real equivalents on, say, c2c or Southeastern.