Fare Dodgers!

[Stigy]

I start this thread mainly because the one I wanted to reply to has been closed, probably because the issue had been settled and any further replies would have been useless (Although still frustrating to see, when you try replying only to find it closed for posting!). I was intrigued to see that the last post made comment that fare evaders were the people that jamp barriers and "leg it" past RPIs, and not those who have money and are willing to buy a ticket when challenged. Now the person that said this is clearly not rom a Revenue Protection background, and is indeed a tad naive. I have seen all manner of people deliberately evade their fares, some of whom are middle aged men and women with very good jobs etc. Some will pay a Penalty Fare once every couple of months because it's cheaper than buying a ticket when you establish how often they are caught! (although it's nice to take details from them even if they pay on the spot, it's not always feasable making them invisible to the system).

My point is, that it's not always the stereotypes that evade their fares, and often requires a little bit of thinking outside the box. At the end of the day, if somebody hasn't got a ticket and walks past the last point at which they could have bought one, it's not going to take Sherlock Holmes to be able to establish their intentions, is it? It's a bit different if somebody has lost their ticket and doesn't actually know it until stopped by staff on exiting, but with people that haven't purchased a ticket in the first place it's a lot different. Unfortunately you have to have a suspicious and somewhat inquisitive mind to work in this sort of role, and assuming someone has a ticket because of their appearance can be the wrong way to think about it, and assuming fare evaders are all the types to leg if from staff when quizzed, hurdle ticket barriers or tailgate is wrong in my opinion.

Any opinions?

 

[RJ]

Well yes, that's correct. I'm aware of many of the tips and tricks that people use and it's certainly not limited to jumping the barriers. No matter how much BS a fare evader comes out with, there's always a hole somewhere. It's just a case of finding it, which any good RPO with a good mix of knowledge and experience should be able to do.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

@Stigy
You're correct, the specific issue raise by the passenger in 'the other thread', 'No Ticket to Ride?' had been resolved. The opinions raised by junglejames in that thread's last post were taking it off on a different tangent which you're developing here.

There does seem to be a few remaining misconceptions about Revenue Protection and the need to 'interpret' a ticketless passenger's intention if they've reached their destination and (still) do not have a ticket.
It appears that a trained RPI will recognise the fleeting moment in which a passenger might suddenly realise that perhaps they won't need to buy a ticket - an unintended but opportunist step past the ticket window to the street beyond. That passenger may not be a determined, deliberate and regular fare evader, but from the TOCs' point of view - its still ticketless travel and falls within the S.5 offence.
Many don't realise (or don't want to accept) that the fleeting moment in which a passenger passes an opportunity to buy is 'intent' in terms of the Law. If anyone else is unconvinced that 'intent' is demonstrated by such a brief failure to take an available opportunity to buy, then they are risking prosecution. The authority which underpins that interpretation is in the judgement of Bremme vs Dubery (1964).

As an anecdote, I recall waiting in Glasgow Central with another member of this forum, casually watching a two-person human gateline checking tickets from passengers on an incoming local service. They 'appeared' to be accepting anything with an approximately orange patch on it and certainly would have been hard pressed to read anything on the tickets. however, it was the people and their body language that they were observing and without hesitation they approached one person who fumbled and shuffled in a rather distinctive way - they next thing we saw was that person being escorted away to the offices.
Clever, eh?

 

[Stigy]

As an anecdote, I recall waiting in Glasgow Central with another member of this forum, casually watching a two-person human gateline checking tickets from passengers on an incoming local service. They 'appeared' to be accepting anything with an approximately orange patch on it and certainly would have been hard pressed to read anything on the tickets. however, it was the people and their body language that they were observing and without hesitation they approached one person who fumbled and shuffled in a rather distinctive way - they next thing we saw was that person being escorted away to the offices.
Clever, eh?

Indeed, body language is a dead give away, especially when the person does the "ticket dance", whereby it's clear alot of the time that they didn't have one in the first place....Some are genuine cases, but as you're aware, you get a feel for who's trying it on and who isn't!

It's worth mentioning as a sidenote to fare evasion that even if intent to avoid payment can't be established, there's those nasty Byelaws to use. It's a bit of a touchy situation this, but unfortunately by their very nature and being Strict Liability, ignorance can't be used as a defence, and intent to avoid payment isn't necessary!

Some seem under the impression that where applicable, a Penalty Fare should be used for Byelaw ticketing offences, which I agree with to an extent (afterall, their use is meant as a civil remedy for a criminal matter), although staff are never obliged to issue one.

 

[Ferret]

Indeed, body language is a dead give away, especially when the person does the "ticket dance", whereby it's clear alot of the time that they didn't have one in the first place....Some are genuine cases, but as you're aware, you get a feel for who's trying it on and who isn't!

It's worth mentioning as a sidenote to fare evasion that even if intent to avoid payment can't be established, there's those nasty Byelaws to use. It's a bit of a touchy situation this, but unfortunately by their very nature and being Strict Liability, ignorance can't be used as a defence, and intent to avoid payment isn't necessary!

Some seem under the impression that where applicable, a Penalty Fare should be used for Byelaw ticketing offences, which I agree with to an extent (afterall, their use is meant as a civil remedy for a criminal matter), although staff are never obliged to issue one.

You see fare evasion practiced by all sorts in society. I've always treated it as a game tbh - some days I win, some days they win. C'est la vie I guess! Still, the biggest misconception going is that only chav-esque rough looking people fare dodge. Au contraire - many of the sort you'd think at first glance might be trouble are actually sound, it's the men in suits or even the older generation who are 'at it'. I'd be interested to hear how much the railway loses to suits playing the 'I'll pay on board if I'm asked' game versus the rough-looking blokes/women who just get on with no intention of paying if asked or not. Bet it's a lot closer to a 50/50 split than many would think....

 

[WestCoast]

I'd be interested to hear how much the railway loses to suits playing the 'I'll pay on board if I'm asked' game versus the rough-looking blokes/women who just get on with no intention of paying if asked or not. Bet it's a lot closer to a 50/50 split than many would think....

"Pay on board if I'm asked" is ridiculously frequent away from huge PF-zones, especially on local services where on some operators the harshest penalty is the full fare. This is sometimes the ticket people want as well! I saw three contrasts of approach today, leaving Man Pic on a TPE a woman wants to purchase onboard, guard mentions that the ticket should really be purchased at the station, but he sold her a discounted ticket, telling her to "buy before boarding" *next time*. On an EMT service leaving Chesterfield a guy was issued with a penalty fare when he asked to buy a single to Sheffield on board and then he started to rant a bit. Then on a Northern service leaving Sheffield, cheapest ticket sold with no questions asked

 

[Ticket Man]

I've been in revenue protection for getting on to three years now and its been a real eye-opener. The phrase "don't judge the book by its cover" really does apply to this role so you really do have to go in quietly before making any rash decisions.

The main thing I have learnt is that there are far more "chancers" out there than people realise. The ones who will travel with-out a ticket on a regular basis and offer no resistance when caught as its cheaper this way than buying all the time. They come in all shapes and sizes from all walks of life and working outside the PF structure hasn't made dealing with these people easy.

 

[yorkie]

The ones who will travel with-out a ticket on a regular basis and offer no resistance when caught ....

I don't know what you mean by this? Can you give an example?

 

[networkrail1]

I don't know what you mean by this? Can you give an example?

Hi Yorkie.

I think what he means is lets say a passenger is going to travel a route 10 times within the next month.

OK there are no ticket barriers at his starting station or his finishing station so he walks straight past the open ticket office and gets on the train, no guard appears he gets off the train at his destination walks straight passed a open ticket office out of the station and on his merry way.

This happens a further 7 times however on the 8Th time the guard comes round and asks for his ticket, he hasn't got one so says he will pay for one guard sells him the full anytime single to his destination.

After that for the last 2 times he is traveling no guard has come round so in other words the guy has travelled on this route 10 times however has only had to pay once for his journey.

Hope that helps mate.

All the best.

Simon

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Also known as ticket 'roulette'.

(Though the payout and the stake are reversed from the game Roulette).
The players don't pay most times, and pay a full price rarely. The player reckons its cheaper in the long-term, (though a run of bad luck can occur just as easily as a run of bad luck).

 

[Scotrail84]

Ive caught people from all walks life either without tickets or over distance without declairing at the tim of the initial check or in 1st when should'nt be after they've had the free issues tea/coffee and then say they dont want to upgrade and move to std class.

Fare dodging doesn't just mean no ticket, theres plenty other instances that could be considered fare dodging or travel fraud. The vast majority of passengers dont realise this either.

I've found that people don't take paying for their fare seriously when it comes to travelling by train because if theres achance of "getting away with it" they will try it. Which begs the question why they dont try it with other means of transport.

You get a look off surprise or disgust when passengers are reminded that if they are allighting at a station with a manned ticket office then they are obliged to pay for their fare if the Guard has not been able to collect it on board. Not just toddle off to the shops or places of work. Nobody ever does though and who could blame them.

Up here in Bonnie Scotland we have a different system to Ingerland. We dont have penalty fare which is due to a bylaw i believe(correct me if im wrong please, i was told it was illegal to inforce them). If we did it might be a different story. Its very difficult to do a TI form if someone has no proof of Name or Address therefore its pretty pointless as they could say my name is A Sample or Mike Hunt and you would have to accept that.

At the end of the day we just have to accept that there will always be people who get away without paying and in my opinion it will never be stopped no matter how many stations have barriers or TE's because theres always scams loop holes and ways round things.

Keeps people in jobs though

 

[allticketspls]

The other great one is if you are doing a manual barrier on a PF station. People just walk up to you, give you £20 in cash and keep walking. I have seen this happen countless times.

I once took £300 in cash on one shift from people doing this, still filled out the PF notices to receipt each one though.

 

[WestCoast]

What I am sometimes amazed at is the ability of some guards to remember which passengers have been checked and which haven't, even on very busy services on high capacity trains. I have watched people when the guard asks for "tickets from X", pretending to be asleep or gazing out the window with music on. The good thing is some guards always get those types and make them pay!

 

[All Line Rover]

I've been in revenue protection for getting on to three years now and its been a real eye-opener. The phrase "don't judge the book by its cover" really does apply to this role so you really do have to go in quietly before making any rash decisions.

The main thing I have learnt is that there are far more "chancers" out there than people realise. The ones who will travel with-out a ticket on a regular basis and offer no resistance when caught as its cheaper this way than buying all the time. They come in all shapes and sizes from all walks of life and working outside the PF structure hasn't made dealing with these people easy.

Although I always pay a "valid" fare for my journey (not always to the stations I start/finish at though ), I don't know how people can call "fare chancers", "fare dodgers/fare evaders."

If there is no obligation to buy a ticket before boarding, and you are entitled to purchase the full-price Anytime ticket on the train without penalty (which is the case on many routes), just because the ticket inspector doesn't come round - which means you don't have the chance to purchase the ticket - doesn't make you a "fare evader."

If the ticket inspector doesn't come round to sell you a ticket, that problem lies with the TOC, not the individual. Although it isn't right in principal, I don't see how these people are doing anything illegal.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . or in 1st when should'nt be after they've had the free issues tea/coffee and then say they dont want to upgrade and move to std class.

(At the risk of veering slightly off-topic) that's one which I find particulary annoying and yet is so easily resolvable.

If the TM/Guard determines that the pax do not have valid tickets for First Class travel (but have accepted refreshments etc), then before ejecting them back to dungeons where they belong, I do wish the Catering Team Leader would be asked to issue them with the corresponding (and perhaps inflated) charge for the goods and services they have received (and perhaps consumed).
Its not at all uncommon on EC to see pax walking through coach M from First to Standard carring drinks, escorted by the Guard. It annoys catering crew tremenously to see their drinks (and service) being sent away without payment.

 

[WestCoast]

If there is no obligation to buy a ticket before boarding, and you are entitled to purchase the full-price Anytime ticket on the train without penalty (which is the case on many routes), just because the ticket inspector doesn't come round - which means you don't have the chance to purchase the ticket - doesn't make you a "fare evader."

If the ticket inspector doesn't come round to sell you a ticket, that problem lies with the TOC, not the individual. Although it isn't right in principal, I don't see how these people are doing anything illegal.

I am afraid you're I think you are wrong.

The NRCoC makes it very clear that you should purchase the ticket before boarding if ticketing facilities exist. This is a legal requirement under railway bylaw - it is your responsibility to buy a ticket not the TOC's job to chase you. The "penalty" for breaking the railway bylaw is the full anytime single/return or a penalty fare depending upon local arrangements. The only exception to this is Open-Access operators who in effect don't comply with the NRCoC, but they are permitted to do so.

 

[yorkie]

If there is no obligation to buy a ticket before boarding, and you are entitled to purchase the full-price Anytime ticket on the train without penalty (which is the case on many routes), just because the ticket inspector doesn't come round - which means you don't have the chance to purchase the ticket - doesn't make you a "fare evader."

That's fine, providing you pay at the ticket office, if there is one, on operators that allow you to purchase full-price Anytime tickets on board (such as Virgin).

Of course that is not fine with a PF operator such as London Midland on a PF train from a PF station, in which case you "must" purchase before boarding. The screens at Euston make this distinction quite clear! (and the same occurs at King's Cross)

You can't, however, make such a statement without mentioning what should happen at your destination, if you don't want to be pulled up for it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am afraid you're wrong.

See my reply. First_Class is indeed "wrong" if his post is meant as a blanket post for all TOCs at all locations! In reality of course you cannot make such a statement as it depends on various factors. He is "correct" providing you are talking about boarding either at a station where no facilities exist, and/or if the operator permits you to purchase on board, and of course what he crucially missed out is that if you get that far with no check, you should pay at your destination if the ticket office is open.

Just to add, people have posted here reporting that they have been prosecuted for doing what First_Class quotes and then - crucially - walking past an open ticket office. Someone in particular was accused of doing this and he was very fortunate to get advice here to apologise, which he did, and he was let off with a reprimand.

I therefore recommend that First_Class is a bit more careful how he words such posts in future, but it's not as simple as him being "wrong". Misleading, I'll grant you. In fact, almost as misleading as when guards try to enforce 'blanket' peak rules instead of on a per-ticket basis!

 

[Scotrail84]

Although I always pay a "valid" fare for my journey (not always to the stations I start/finish at though ), I don't know how people can call "fare chancers", "fare dodgers/fare evaders."

If there is no obligation to buy a ticket before boarding, and you are entitled to purchase the full-price Anytime ticket on the train without penalty (which is the case on many routes), just because the ticket inspector doesn't come round - which means you don't have the chance to purchase the ticket - doesn't make you a "fare evader."

If the ticket inspector doesn't come round to sell you a ticket, that problem lies with the TOC, not the individual. Although it isn't right in principal, I don't see how these people are doing anything illegal.

I was looking for a smilie to use for the above post but there isnt any suitable ones. That is utter pash mate

 

[Ferret]

I was looking for a smilie to use for the above post but there isnt any suitable ones. That is utter pash mate

Thankfully the Courts think otherwise! Most of my RPI friends' MG11s would never get past first base otherwise!!!

 

[WestCoast]

Personally, In non-PF zones, on shorter distance routes I don't think the threat of an anytime/single return is great enough - often the premium isn't that high, if it exists at all. On longer distance routes, I reckon the premium price for an anytime fare is enough to force people into buying at the office/machine.

On the shorter-distance routes I hear it often, "Oh. I don't bother with the ticket office, I just get on and often the conductor doesn't come round" and when there isn't any enforcement at the destination, nothing stops these people.

In the Netherlands, on NS (Northern Rail's parent TOC), passengers are fined 40 euros plus the fare for the journey they are making if they ignore an open ticket office/ working machine. Ticket barriers are non-existent. Now, I'm not saying at all that Britain should go down this route, I just think the system needs to be standardised and made less advantageous to "chance".

 

[radamfi]

Using a machine is far easier in NL though. No complicated choice of route or ticket types to worry about. Basically you choose destination, single or return, 1st or 2nd class, full fare or discount then insert bank card. So there is little excuse for not buying before getting on the train - well as long as you have a Dutch bank account. They are also capable of selling remote tickets and day tickets.

Using a smart card is even easier. Like a TfL Oyster card, if you touch and touch out and have your card linked to a bank account, you never need worry about buying tickets ever again.

 

[34D]

and of course what he crucially missed out is that if you get that far with no check, you should pay at your destination if the ticket office is open.

But past consideration is no consideration! I.e. If the journey has been concluded, there is no obligation to pay (under common law this is, not necessarily rail byelaws).

I really find this "holier than thou" attitude impossible to believe - does everyone here (except first_class, whom I surmise does live in the real world, unlike others) really go to the destination ticket office (bible and common prayer book in hand, no doubt) when this happens? I think not.

About 5 years ago, I developed a strategy of never paying for parking tickets (council or private) on the basis that if anyone issued me with a ticket that was actually valid and legal I would pay it. So yes, I can fully understand people who do likewise with rail tickets. Remember we are not talking enthusiasts here. Joe Public neither knows nor cares that the guards office on ECT is at the london end, and on VWC is towards the country end, and in the luggage area of slam door stock yet in the rear cab of second gen MUs (plus some TOC who don't have them at all).

 

[yorkie]

But past consideration is no consideration! I.e. If the journey has been concluded, there is no obligation to pay (under common law this is, not necessarily rail byelaws).

I'm not a legal expert, but all the experts can't be wrong, and there is an obligation to pay, it doesn't matter what 'common law' says if railway laws say you have to pay... (although if both origin & destination are unstaffed and the guard does not come round, then I do wonder what the obligations are then, do you have to write to them?).

I really find this "holier than thou" attitude impossible to believe - does everyone here (except first_class, whom I surmise does live in the real world, unlike others) really go to the destination ticket office (bible and common prayer book in hand, no doubt) when this happens? I think not.

Well, I think we have established that is actually the point of this thread - that some RPIs here realise that people do that, and are not happy about it.

Also, as I said, we have had people post on this forum who did as you say, walk past the open ticket office, living in the "real world" as you say, and then the "real world" gives them a nasty shock and they are prosecuted.

 

[WestCoast]

I really find this "holier than thou" attitude impossible to believe - does everyone here (except first_class, whom I surmise does live in the real world, unlike others) really go to the destination ticket office (bible and common prayer book in hand, no doubt) when this happens? I think not.

Well, I always buy a ticket before boarding when a machine or office is available (which, for me, is most of the time) - as per the railway bylaw. But I will admit when I was younger I did walk past an office a few times after being unable to pay after having boarded at an unstaffed station and the guard's machine was broken or he/she did not come down the train. There was little to no chance of getting caught at this particular station. If it had been somewhere swarming with RPIs I would have done differently.

 

[All Line Rover]

That's fine, providing you pay at the ticket office, if there is one, on operators that allow you to purchase full-price Anytime tickets on board (such as Virgin).

Of course that is not fine with a PF operator such as London Midland on a PF train from a PF station, in which case you "must" purchase before boarding. The screens at Euston make this distinction quite clear! (and the same occurs at King's Cross)

You can't, however, make such a statement without mentioning what should happen at your destination, if you don't want to be pulled up for it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See my reply. First_Class is indeed "wrong" if his post is meant as a blanket post for all TOCs at all locations! In reality of course you cannot make such a statement as it depends on various factors. He is "correct" providing you are talking about boarding either at a station where no facilities exist, and/or if the operator permits you to purchase on board, and of course what he crucially missed out is that if you get that far with no check, you should pay at your destination if the ticket office is open.

Just to add, people have posted here reporting that they have been prosecuted for doing what First_Class quotes and then - crucially - walking past an open ticket office. Someone in particular was accused of doing this and he was very fortunate to get advice here to apologise, which he did, and he was let off with a reprimand.

I therefore recommend that First_Class is a bit more careful how he words such posts in future, but it's not as simple as him being "wrong". Misleading, I'll grant you. In fact, almost as misleading as when guards try to enforce 'blanket' peak rules instead of on a per-ticket basis!

I'm certainly not applying my statement to all situations, such as London Midland. All I'm saying is that if you want to buy the ticket on board, but do not get the opportunity to do so, and walk off at your destination station, I don't see how you have "evaded" paying a fare.

For example, on the 20.10 Glasgow to Crewe service, there are never any ticket checks after Carlisle. By the time the train reaches stations further south, the ticket offices are all closed. What do you do then? You could go as far as to say that you must then buy the ticket from a TVM, but I don't see how such a rule could be enforced.

Also, there are rarely ticket checks between Preston and Wigan, both of which have no ticket barriers. VT allow people to purchase Anytime tickets onboard without penalty, and if the customer does not get the opportunity to do so, that is not the customers fault!

In no way am I condoning fare evasion, but if VT wan't the revenue then they should sort this problem out. The solution is simple - force people to buy their ticket before boarding! If they don't comply, issue a PF. There is nothing complicated about it!

TOC's may complain about people "evading" paying a fare by taking advantage of the "buy the ticket on board" rule, but the problem is of their own making, and they should sort it out.

PS. To make this absolutely clear, I ALWAYS buy my ticket before boarding. ALWAYS, and have no intent to evade paying. The above is just my opinion on the matter. Don't take it as legal advice, or as if I'm permitting it!

 

[Ferret]

But past consideration is no consideration! I.e. If the journey has been concluded, there is no obligation to pay (under common law this is, not necessarily rail byelaws).

What a load of utter piffle! In what way does past consideration come into this?!

 

[Railjet]

I've found that people don't take paying for their fare seriously when it comes to travelling by train because if theres achance of "getting away with it" they will try it. Which begs the question why they dont try it with other means of transport.

Would you like to explain what you mean by that? 10%/50%/90% don't "take paying for their fare seriously"?

All these generalisations do is to exacerbate the "us" and "them" syndrome, and consequently they are completely counterproductive.

Passengers are your customers, so treat them as such. How A TOC ensures that it collects the revenue due to it is its problem - but it certainly doesn't mean that it should treat every passenger as a chancer.

 

[WestCoast]

I'm certainly not applying my statement to all situations, such as London Midland. All I'm saying is that if you want to buy the ticket on board, but do not get the opportunity to do so, and walk off at your destination station, I don't see how you have "evaded" paying a fare.

Firstly, my post above explains that I have walked past ticket offices a few times in the past, however, I do now see it as 'evasion'. You are deliberately ignoring a final chance to pay for your services rendered i.e. your journey.

If a hotel gave you the chance pre-pay your room bill, and you turned it down they would expect you to pay later. If you didn't pay your room bill at check-out, and just left, you would be stealing. It's a completely stupid analogy, but it may just highlight a moral and perhaps legal point.

 

[yorkie]

Well, I always buy a ticket before boarding when a machine or office is available (which, for me, is most of the time) - as per the railway bylaw.....

Walking past an open ticket office and boarding a train with the intention of buying on board (or, if that is not possible, at your destination) is absolutely NOT evasion, providing the operator permits purchase on board. The evasion would only occur if you then exit the station without paying if the ticket office was open.

Of course it's different where the rules say you "must buy before boarding".

I will be exercising my right to buy a £15 ticket from York to London on board in July (I was going to buy a slightly cheaper Advance on East Coast, but the chance to pay £15 on board is worth a fiver extra, as if something cropped up and I decided to travel the next day, I could do so without losing the £10 or £15!)

If given the chance to buy on board, I am happy to do so. I make a point of ALWAYS walking past the machines/ticket office before boarding on Grand Central, if I am using their trains then they deserve the commission, not East Coast.

If a hotel gave you the chance pre-pay your room bill, and you turned it down they would expect you to pay later. If you didn't pay your room bill at check-out, and just left, you would be stealing. It's a completely stupid analogy, but it may just highlight a moral and perhaps legal point.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[WestCoast]

Walking past an open ticket office and boarding a train with the intention of buying on board (or, if that is not possible, at your destination) is absolutely NOT evasion, providing the operator permits purchase on board. The evasion would only occur if you then exit the station without paying if the ticket office was open.

Of course it's different where the rules say you "must buy before boarding".

Sorry, I should of made it clearer - I mean when it is explicit that you should buy before boarding. With services such as Grand Central and Gatwick and Heathrow Express that welcome onboard purchasing - absolutely fine! I traveled York - Thirsk ticketless with Grand Central but this is permitted, incidentally the guard did not come around and when I got to Thirsk the ticket office was closed, so there's some lost revenue.....