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Fare evader on Trip Advisor

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sheff1

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Twisting this restaurant thing a bit further, though... Is there a restaurant where customers can walk off without having to pay their bill? I can't think of one.

I can only assume you do not frequent a wide range of restaurants. It would be very easy in many places to leave without paying. How many people actually do so, I have no idea. As ever, though, comparisons with restaurants, supermarkets etc have no relevance when the discussion concerns rail tickets.

Perhaps we need a new version of Godwin's Law - 'As an online discussion of railway ticketing becomes longer the probability of a comparison involving the purchase of foodstuffs approaches 1'.
 
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AndyLandy

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There are different laws governing shopping for items and eating food in a restaurant and being expected to pay for it afterwards. I can't remember exactly what the rules are, but I'm informed there are circumstances where it's legal to leave a restaurant without paying. Clearly fraudulently ordering food with no intention to pay is against the law, but there are some situations where you're within your rights to leave without paying.

On the other hand, the laws regarding the railways are pretty clear. Travelling without due authority is an offence and can gain you a criminal record.
 

jon0844

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What about people who use unheard of rovers, or tickets between two obscure stations hundreds of miles away from their area of validity, or otherwise bluffing/exploiting staff's ignorance to evade the due fare - do you despise them too?

A rover can be used many times... and I'm not sure it's worth me getting into an argument about individual tickets and combinations as I'm no expert on ticketing (hence often asking on here about things). I think it's more a case of intent or the clear knowledge that you're doing something wrong.

You know that what you're doing is legal, so that's fine.

If you knew you were doing something illegal, it wouldn't be.
 

AlterEgo

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That is a different situation though.

Say I'd been in the restaurant and had put my card behind the bar for the drinks. A group of 7 or 8 of us then get totally hammered. When we leave, we ask for the bill expecting to be charged the correct amount. Are you expecting a group of completely drunk people to remember exactly what they've drunk? I would think that the onus would be on the restaurant to charge correctly and it would be their loss if not.

I was talking about a situation where you know you've been undercharged at the time, rather than days later.

Is it just me that scrutinises a bill in a restaurant? I'm usually checking to see if I'm being overcharged. ;)
 

WestCoast

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Japan is in the top 10 of countries worldwide for recorded crime.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

If you place those figures against population size it shows Japan in a better light, but their crime rate per capita would then be (surprisingly) worse than Russia.

Not that Japan vs Russia is of any significance to this thread, but figures can be made to say anything and in this case it all depends on how thoroughly crime is recorded (and that doesn't just mean official police records). It's probably a reflection of that more than anything...

Intentional homicide rate is always more telling if you ask me....
 
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gswindale

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I was talking about a situation where you know you've been undercharged at the time, rather than days later.

Is it just me that scrutinises a bill in a restaurant? I'm usually checking to see if I'm being overcharged. ;)
Not sure about where you go, but I would still expect the bill when I leave - not days later.

I do tend to scrutinise my bills, but hotels can be interesting when you sign for your meal and then get the itemised bill at the end when a lemonade can become an oj at a lower price. Is it worth pointing this out? The admin costs etc would surely cost more to resolve?
 

bnm

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Not that Japan vs Russia is of any significance to this thread, but figures can be made to say anything and in this case it all depends on how thoroughly crime is recorded (and that doesn't just mean official police records). It's probably a reflection of that more than anything...

Intentional homicide rate is always more telling if you ask me....

I provided the link to the statistics as a sort of rebuttal to another poster saying that crime in Japan is 'low'. As that statement wasn't quantified I attempted to find statistical evidence for it.

I agree that statistics can be made to say anything whilst remaining accurate, for a given definition of accurate, but statistics are all we usually have to go on. The figures I linked to were for recorded crime, which is quantifiable and from which contrasts can be drawn. Of course, actual crime rates may be very different....

The recorded crime rate in Japan is 'low' compared to many westernized countries, but there are other countries whose recorded crime is lower. Whether that is down to how the recording is done or because there are actually fewer crimes is, of course, harder to quantify with accurate statistical analysis.

However, merely assuming that Russia must be more lawless than Japan is maybe borne out of pre-conceived ideas about those two societies. The statistics say otherwise.
 
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jon0844

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I've been to Japan, but perhaps places like Singapore or Malaysia are better - and other Asian countries. They're all better than the UK though.

Besides the tourist areas of Tokyo, people feel safe in Japan.

As for Russia. One thing is for sure, they certainly try and look after tourists there (the police in particular) but for 'locals' it might not be so much fun. This isn't a thread about corruption, but given the problems that still exist I wouldn't be sure to trust any statistics at all from there.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Different countries measure crime differently. To make a fair comparison with other countries, population size would also have to be taken into account.
 

bnm

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Different countries measure crime differently. To make a fair comparison with other countries, population size would also have to be taken into account.

As I did, when comparing recorded crime in Japan v Russia.
 

DownSouth

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Skymonster

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I admit that on maybe a couple occasions in the past I've used the return portion of a FOR more than once... In the good old bad old MML days (I'm talking early post privatisation, not during MML's final days) when neither St.Pancras nor Nottingham were barriered, there were several occasions when my Used ticket wasn't marked. Usually there'd be a manual check at the head of the platform at St.Pancras, or staff onboard the train would mark the ticket, but sometimes neither would happen and I'd leave the station at Nottingham with an unmarked portion of a FOR ticket still in my possession. At the time, I was travelling at least weekly and often more than that, so the opportunity to use the return portion of that unmarked FOR again would have been (and once or twice was) all too easy - arguably an undetectable opportunity to save money that could be taken with impunity and without fear of comeback.

The situation I described is almost impossible now - both stations are barriered and EMT staff are very diligent when it comes to cancelling used tickets during onboard checks. I can't remember ever even having an opportunity to consider doing the same since EMT came in.

LOL! :D

And on my very next trip, all barriers at St Pancras were open, the train manager didn't check tickets, and all barriers at Nottingham were open. So now I have a return portion of a FOR which I've used for travel but which I COULD use again should I want to, with virtually no chance of being caught out. And seeing as EMT didn't provide ANY first class service whatsoever on the train tonight (with no real explanation as to why not either) I'd not be surprised if some travellers felt like reusing their tickets would be appropriate "compensation" for that lack of service...

Honesly, the railway really doesn't help itself sometimes! :roll:

Andy
 

Urban Gateline

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LOL! :D

And on my very next trip, all barriers at St Pancras were open, the train manager didn't check tickets, and all barriers at Nottingham were open. So now I have a return portion of a FOR which I've used for travel but which I COULD use again should I want to, with virtually no chance of being caught out. And seeing as EMT didn't provide ANY first class service whatsoever on the train tonight (with no real explanation as to why not either) I'd not be surprised if some travellers felt like reusing their tickets would be appropriate "compensation" for that lack of service...

Honesly, the railway really doesn't help itself sometimes! :roll:

Andy

Will you be re-using it though?

I travelled on EMT myself early this morning, barriers were open at St Pancras but the Guard checked tickets after every stop, so I'd say you were lucky not to get checked, most guards will want the commission! :lol:
 

Skymonster

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No, I shall not. But I shall be writing to EMT complaining about the lack of first class service and the lack of explanation for the failure to provide first class service (had the train manager actually come through checking tickets, I'd have asked why), and I will also point out in that complaint that the train manager who couldn't be bothered to explain why no first class service would be provided also didn't bother to check any tickets which - with all the barriers being open - could have resulted in loss of revenue and reused tickets.

Andy
 
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bb21

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No, I shall not. But I shall be writing to EMT complaining about the lack of first class service and the lack of explanation for the failure to provide first class service (had the train manager actually come through checking tickets, I'd have asked why), and I will also point out in that complaint that the train manager who couldn't be bothered to explain why no first class service would be provided also didn't bother to check any tickets which - with all the barriers being open - could have resulted in loss of revenue and reused tickets.

Andy

You can at least claim the difference in fares between First and Standard Class back.
 

Minilad

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I wonder how many people who have uncancelled or unstamped tickets remaining after a journey and subsequently use them again deliberately try to avoid showing the ticket to enable this situation to arise
 

Ivo

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I wonder how many people who have uncancelled or unstamped tickets remaining after a journey and subsequently use them again deliberately try to avoid showing the ticket to enable this situation to arise

On a similar note, how many people chance buying a short-distance ticket on the assumption that the Guard will check their ticket immediately (especially if the Guard is due to change at the next station)?
 

Flamingo

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No, I shall not. But I shall be writing to EMT complaining about the lack of first class service and the lack of explanation for the failure to provide first class service (had the train manager actually come through checking tickets, I'd have asked why), and I will also point out in that complaint that the train manager who couldn't be bothered to explain why no first class service would be provided also didn't bother to check any tickets which - with all the barriers being open - could have resulted in loss of revenue and reused tickets.

Andy

I'm just curious, what do you mean by "the lack of a first class service"? Was there no first class carriage?
 

All Line Rover

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I'm just curious, what do you mean by "the lack of a first class service"? Was there no first class carriage?

I'm sure he means the complimentary food and drink. I too would be quite annoyed if this was missing and I was relying on the complimentary service, but then my local TOC is very good at compensating customers when this happens, so I have no reason to complain. :)
 

jon0844

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FGW gave my parents a free open return (FC) when they had problems with the free offerings (or lack of) on a Sunday, so some TOCs do make good.

The tickets were valid for any origin and destination too.

A nice and polite letter can pay dividends!
 

Flamingo

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FGW gave my parents a free open return (FC) when they had problems with the free offerings (or lack of) on a Sunday, so some TOCs do make good.

The tickets were valid for any origin and destination too.

A nice and polite letter can pay dividends!

Not every service offers refreshments (for example the London-Oxfords), and we get specifically told that the lack of refreshments is NOT a reason to not charge 1st class upgrades. 1st class is charging for the seat and extra space, and everything else is "subject to availability". (don't shoot the messenger, by the way).
 

jon0844

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In this case the till wasn't working in the UK cafe/bar and the lady couldn't (or wouldn't) give anyone anything at all, even for free!

They came home from Wales and merely wrote in to say they'd been disappointed with the lack of refreshments. I should also add that they had open tickets, not cheap advances! Maybe that influenced FGW but it was great service nonetheless and has seen them travel FC again a few times.
 

Failed Unit

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I wonder how many people who have uncancelled or unstamped tickets remaining after a journey and subsequently use them again deliberately try to avoid showing the ticket to enable this situation to arise

To be honest on the journeys I make it wouldn't be worth the hastle, the single is only very slightly cheaper than the return. I have a feeling it is like that for the exact reason of fare avoidance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm just curious, what do you mean by "the lack of a first class service"? Was there no first class carriage?

I would be amazed if the HST had both 1st class coaches removed from the formation. I think you are right on you suspicion about lack of freebies. Scotrail is a good example of pot luck on the freebies. 2 units and only one with a trolley so if you are in the wrong one you just get the bigger seat (which scotrail say is what you pay for). However considering the seat on 158 operated services is the same maybe it is the freebies<D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just thinking about it, journeys such as London - Nottingham most users don't do very often. If the dont get a FOR for example cancelled and reuse it, you could ironically end up with more revenue for the railway. The user buys an AP single for a journey the would not have made otherwise to reuse thier "free" ticket. Not big, clever or legal but just highlighting it could increase revenue on IC routes.
 

bnm

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You can at least claim the difference in fares between First and Standard Class back.

Skymonster says there was a lack of First Class service. Not clear whether he's saying there was no First Class accommodation. Can you claim the difference in fares when it's only the comps and host that is missing?
 

All Line Rover

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Skymonster says there was a lack of First Class service. Not clear whether he's saying there was no First Class accommodation. Can you claim the difference in fares when it's only the comps and host that is missing?

Only if First Class was declassified.
 

Flamingo

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Skymonster says there was a lack of First Class service. Not clear whether he's saying there was no First Class accommodation. Can you claim the difference in fares when it's only the comps and host that is missing?

I don't think so - whether something is given as a goodwill gesture is another thing, but I don't think it's an entitlement, as buffets often get closed early / open late on services, and that does not mean that first class is automatically declassified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In this case the till wasn't working in the UK cafe/bar and the lady couldn't (or wouldn't) give anyone anything at all, even for free!

They came home from Wales and merely wrote in to say they'd been disappointed with the lack of refreshments. I should also add that they had open tickets, not cheap advances! Maybe that influenced FGW but it was great service nonetheless and has seen them travel FC again a few times.

Well, I'm glad they got some compensation, as the lack of a till does not stop comps being handed out, they don't go through the till.
 

Skymonster

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JUst to clarify, there was no first class service (i.e. drinks of any sort - on a very hot day - or food/snacks). There was first accommodation. There was also no sign of the train manager and no ticket checks and no barriers - so as I said, I could if I had a mind to, reuse the first open ticket.

I will however be complaining to EMT today:

In First Class you can also enjoy a range of complimentary refreshments Monday to Friday.

No, there wasn't! So they have failed to deliver on that commitment.

And in their passenger charter:

If the advertised catering service is not available, we will do our best to let you know before you join the train

No they didn't. No doubt they will use some weasel words to avoid having to do anything on the basis it says "do our best", I simply won't accept that they didn't know before the train departed that there'd be no first class service - at the very least the train manager could have said something just before the train departed (in which case I'd have got off and waited for the other Nottingham train ten minutes later), but no - rather sneakily he waited until the train was on the move to make any announcement.

So, in respect of the complaint I'm going to make - if they appologise and do something about it, I'll let it go. If they reply with words to the effect of "tough luck" I might just consider reusing the ticket

Andy
 
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