Fare evaders - what happens if they run?

[furlong]

That assumes the ticket office was open or at least a ticket machine was working, also isn't there another 'rule' that passengers have to be served with five minutes? If somebody arrives say 10 minutes before their train is due to leave and finds a long queue at the window they can hardly be expected to miss their train can they?

If you have to wait unreasonably longer than 5 minutes at peak times (a notice normally tells you what peak hours are) or 3 minutes off-peak then I'd suggest contacting the operator concerned and try asking them what reasonable endeavours they made to deal with the problem. (E.g drafting in more staff or authorising people to travel and pay at the first reasonable opportunity later on their journey, which could be done by displaying a notice to that effect to cover a staffing shortage.) If they are unable to provide a satisfactory answer and a pattern emerges with it happening on numerous occasions, then you could try taking it up with Passenger Focus.

 

[Antman]

I don't know the full rules & regs but a member of South East trains staff told me if I cannot buy a ticket within five minutes then I can travel without one and pay on the train or at my destination. I have done this occasionally and never had a problem, no threats of penalty fares or anything.

I appreciate demand can vary but surely there has to be some onus on TOC's to serve passengers quickly and efficiently?

 

[island]

I would argue that it is unclear if that power would extend to cases where the suspect has left railway land.

That is not a tenable argument. Section 5 (2) RRA 1889 mentions nothing about where the person is.

Naturally, it's not hugely relevant as most/all TOCs have instructed staff not to exercise the power.

 

[furlong]

That is not a tenable argument. Section 5 (2) RRA 1889 mentions nothing about where the person is.

I think michael769 was just pointing out that there could well be general or specific limitations on the applicability/interpretation of the act (from various sources) and that would need all need to be checked before placing any reliance on it.

 

[michael769]

I think michael769 was just pointing out that there could well be general or specific limitations on the applicability/interpretation of the act (from various sources) and that would need all need to be checked before placing any reliance on it.

Indeed unless there is a definitive ruling from a superior court to guide us then the question as to how the provision might be interpreted would be entirely down to a court to decide on - and I can tell you than in such circumstances courts can be quite unpredictable as to which way they will go.

While you can always appeal - that ramps up the costs and stress quite considerably - not a situation I could ever advise anyone to put themselves in.

 

[Antman]

I'd beg to differ, if somebody is not happy they shouldn't be afraid to appeal

 

[rdwarr]

Five minutes seems a bit short. Surely no reasonable person would believe that, if you're catching a train at busy times, it's fine to turn up five minutes before departure to buy a ticket.
I always aim for "T - 15" just in case there is a queue.

 

[Antman]

Five minutes seems a bit short. Surely no reasonable person would believe that, if you're catching a train at busy times, it's fine to turn up five minutes before departure to buy a ticket.
I always aim for "T - 15" just in case there is a queue.

I was told by SET staff 5minutes is the rule although I wouldn't intentionally cut it that fine but if your trains coming in an somebody in front is faffing about what do you do? Jump on without a ticket or wait half hour or more for the next train? Its the former for me

 

[barrykas]

Five minutes seems a bit short. Surely no reasonable person would believe that, if you're catching a train at busy times, it's fine to turn up five minutes before departure to buy a ticket.
I always aim for "T - 15" just in case there is a queue.

The three minute and five minute targets are average queuing times, which are assessed across a one hour period in the peak and another hour off-peak.

Obviously, it's possible to be queuing for longer than five minutes if the person in front of you wants a ticket that's particularly time consuming to issue, like a Sleeper from Fort William to Euston, followed by a ferry from Weymouth to Jersey, with a dog and two bikes.

 

[Flamingo]

I was told by SET staff 5minutes is the rule although I wouldn't intentionally cut it that fine but if your trains coming in an somebody in front is faffing about what do you do? Jump on without a ticket or wait half hour or more for the next train? Its the former for me

Fair enough, once you realise it could come back to bite you on the ass. "A bloke on a platform once told me" is not a defence that usually works, I believe (although I would be willing to be corrected by our learned friends on the site ).

 

[Antman]

Fair enough, once you realise it could come back to bite you on the ass. "A bloke on a platform once told me" is not a defence that usually works, I believe (although I would be willing to be corrected by our learned friends on the site ).

Touch wood I've never had any problem buying a ticket on board, are SET maybe a bit more relaxed about it than other TOC's?

I know its a 'how long is a piece of string' question but there must be some leeway if there are exceptional queues at ticket office windows, only one open perhaps and maybe self service machine not working?

 

[island]

SET will come down on you like a tonne of bricks on the metro routes, but mainline seems to be a bit more relaxed.

 

[jb]

I don't know the full rules & regs but a member of South East trains staff told me if I cannot buy a ticket within five minutes then I can travel without one and pay on the train or at my destination. I have done this occasionally and never had a problem, no threats of penalty fares or anything.

We've already established beyond any doubt whatsoever in other threads that (some) SET staff are amongst the most clueless imaginable. Caveat emptor on taking their word for anything.

 

[Swirlz]

Indeed unless there is a definitive ruling from a superior court to guide us then the question as to how the provision might be interpreted would be entirely down to a court to decide on - and I can tell you than in such circumstances courts can be quite unpredictable as to which way they will go.

While you can always appeal - that ramps up the costs and stress quite considerably - not a situation I could ever advise anyone to put themselves in.

It is pretty irrelevant. Whilst Regulation of Railways Act 1889 gives a specific power of arrest, in my opinion, at any time, and in any place - anyway:

Section 24A Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 gives an additional power of arrest, where it is believed an indictable or either way offence has been committed, even if that offence is later replaced with something else.

So, a person with a ticket problem could be arrested for various offences under legislation like:

Section 2 - Fraud Act 2006 (Fraud by false representation) (e.g. short fare, child tickets etc).
Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 (Counterfeit tickets etc.)
Section 3- Theft Act 1978 (Making off without payment)

Any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is, or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, committing or attempting to commit an offence under this section.

etc etc.

The CPS/TOC etc can later decide to use alternative legislation to prosecute, if they prefer.

 

[Antman]

SET will come down on you like a tonne of bricks on the metro routes, but mainline seems to be a bit more relaxed.

I suppose that on high frequency metro routes there is less justification for boarding without a ticket?

 

[Flamingo]

Touch wood I've never had any problem buying a ticket on board, are SET maybe a bit more relaxed about it than other TOC's?

I know its a 'how long is a piece of string' question but there must be some leeway if there are exceptional queues at ticket office windows, only one open perhaps and maybe self service machine not working?

We will get told when TVM's are out of order, or some issue is ongoing.

However, it is funny at some stations the number of people who come rushing up to the barrier demanding to be let through to board when the train arrives - who have spent the previous 10-15 minutes loitering just outside the station entrance...