fare evaders

[sheff1]

Maybe Sports clubs should use the 'customer service friendly' model the railway uses.
Lets everyone through the turnstiles and then pass through the crowd for the entrance money during the game.
Those turnstiles really do hold you up when you are trying to get in the ground

Another line from a barrier supporter which doesn't stand up.

Whenever I have swiped a barcoded ticket or smartcard to enter a football ground I have never had a valid ticket rejected, unlike my experience with railway ticket barriers.

I have also never been to any stadium where you need to pass the ticket through the reader to exit.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for the recent posts, I think you folks are taking it a little too far (or misinterpreting) what OT has said.

Not at all. He said all stations should have barriers and the only people who would object are fare evaders.

I offered him the opportunity to clarify what he meant, but he chose to ignore my post.

 

[Minilad]

Another line from a barrier supporter which doesn't stand up.

Whenever I have swiped a barcoded ticket or smartcard to enter a football ground I have never had a valid ticket rejected, unlike my experience with railway ticket barriers.

I have also never been to any stadium where you need to pass the ticket through the reader to exit.

Not a supporter of barriers. But I am a supporter of a manned point which people must pass to gain entry or exit to a station. So your point doesn't stand up i'm afraid.
I just don't understand why people feel they should just be able to wander on to a train without any form of check taking place. No other business that I can think of would allow this to happen. My point about the sports ground being that you do have to show a ticket to gain entry.

 

[WestCoast]

Not a supporter of barriers. But I am a supporter of a manned point which people must pass to gain entry or exit to a station. So your point doesn't stand up i'm afraid.

The usefulness of a manned point is determined by the staff manning it. Manual gatelines seem have a poor reputation in certain areas (Northern 'west' being a prime example).

 

[Phil6219]

The usefulness of a manned point is determined by the staff manning it. Manual gatelines seem have a poor reputation in certain areas (Northern 'west' being a prime example).

True, I've came rather close to having it out with a member of the gateline staff for just waving passengers through (on a non-too busy Saturday). Annoyed me since I had just got off a train then bought another ticket for another journey, the guard didn't do a ticket check either.

Now I'm starting to sound like one of them moaning sods, I am not really I just get a tad wound up with regards to buying tickets when others dont.

Phil

 

[IanXC]

IIRC, you are allowed a period of a few days in which to produce a driving licence if requested by the police, and allowed to drive off.

Little bit ago on the thread I know

The Police very rarely use the ability to request a "producer" any more. Its certainly not an option you are allowed to exercise.

Usual way now is for the officer to ring up and make enquiries of the DVLA database. As I understand it only if this is unavailable do you get the option for a producer.

 

[sheff1]

Not a supporter of barriers.

Not the impression you gave in Post 27

But I am a supporter of a manned point which people must pass to gain entry or exit to a station.

I have nothing against this as long as the people manning this point have the requisite knowledge as to which tickets are, or are not, valid.

 

[Minilad]

OK I will again clarify. I am in favour of a manned point (manned by well trained staff) which you would have to go past to enter / exit.
Mechanical barriers I am not in favour of.

 

[Flamingo]

OK I will again clarify. I am in favour of a manned point (manned by well trained staff) which you would have to go past to enter / exit.
Mechanical barriers I am not in favour of.

A physical barrier is useful, as otherwise staff are in the position of either physically restraining somebody when there is a ticket irregularity (and all the legal minefield that entails) or having people push past them when challenged (and again, the physical contact / threat that this entails).

 

[sheff1]

OK I will again clarify. I am in favour of a manned point (manned by well trained staff) which you would have to go past to enter / exit.
Mechanical barriers I am not in favour of.

Seems like we agree then.

 

[Minilad]

Seems like we agree then.

Good, I'm a lover not a fighter !!
I have never come to grips with why people make such a fuss of having to show a ticket to get on a train. You have to on a bus, a plane, at the theatre, cinema, sports events. I know all circumstances are different but surely it can't be that hard to figure out how to to do with the minimum of fuss and inconvenience. And it would have the benefit of keeping undesirables off the trains and platforms too

 

[DaveNewcastle]

A physical barrier is useful, as otherwise staff are in the position of either physically restraining somebody when there is a ticket irregularity (and all the legal minefield that entails) or having people push past them when challenged (and again, the physical contact / threat that this entails).

That's a very clear and well-made argument for barriers. Which, at busy, staffed stations, I agree with entirely.

My support, however, dwindles rapidly as we look towards smaller, quiter and unstaffed stations - the very stations from which regular evaders may travel to/from city centre hubs. At those locations, many of which may be in remote rural locations, its hard to see that full-time staffing or un-staffed barriers could be effective.
Many on here will know that the Tyne & Wear are Metro system was opened with automated ticket machines and barriers. They were vigourously abused and ultimately the barriers were removed (excepting the major urban stations).
The physical barrier PLUS and adequate level of staffing works well, but anything less seems to leave too many opportunities for abuse - opportunities which are exploited to the full.

 

[Flamingo]

It can be very funny when several barrier staff are standing around watching some low-life trying to force the barriers open to get out, making helpful comments like "Push harder mate", "Use your foot", and "You couldn't push over a Granny like that"!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

That's a very clear and well-made argument for barriers. Which, at busy, staffed stations, I agree with entirely.

.

..except when it's TOO busy and then the barriers are opened for the crowds to disperse more easily.

 

[leshuttle]

Quite regularly I'm on the Virgin Trains out of Euston and it varies as to when there's a ticket check either before or after boarding. In one recent case where the ticket check was after, I couldn't but help notice the suspicious behavior of a young lady on the opposite aisle who was continually glancing up and down the coach. A soon as TM appeared in the next coach she made a quick dash for the WC. Needless to say I discretely tipped off TM on her suspicious behavior.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Quite regularly I'm on the Virgin Trains out of Euston and it varies as to when there's a ticket check either before or after boarding.

It certainly does vary.. I made a journey from Macclesfield to Euston last month without my ticket being checked at either station or on the train.

Most efficient checks I've noticed are on South Eastern High Speed - have never been on a train out of St.Pancras and not had my ticket checked - sometimes 2 or 3 times and that is in spite of St P, Stratford and Ebbesfleet all being barriered.

 

[calc7]

Very satisfying reporting a fare evader on the 0700 MAN-EUS this morning and watching him get issued with the £139.50 SOS he was hoping do dodge in the vestibule

 

[gnolife]

A group from my college decided to try it on on the 150 we had from Marple Br. to Manchester. They put a bike up so that it was blocking the guards door into the passenger area. What they hadn't counted on was the fact that the guard could switch to the front of the train at the next stop. The 4 of them got charged a very healthy total fare of £149.20 for their trip to York (4 x Anytime return)

 

[mappman1000]

My views on fare evasion are:

1. It's too easy at alot of places to not buy a ticket, such as on any great eastern route that operates 321's, 317's, 360's and 315's, as of the many many times I've travelled these, there's never been a guard or RPI, even though people say they exist, I've never seen one. If an operator is going to operate a DOO service, then why do they leave the majority of the stations left open, unstaffed with only a ticket machine, which makes it appetising for people travelling between these stations with no gates.

2. You can easily buy 'a ticket' to get through barriers. An example is to buy a return from Colchester to Marks tey, to go to ingatestone, because you know you won't get checked, and there are no barriers at the other end. Another way is to buy a child ticket and even if you get checked and get asked how old you are, you can just say '15', and they can't challenge that because I don't believe there is any rule stating that all child rail travellers should carry ID. This has started on some buses, but its hardly helpful for people who don't carry ID, and are forced to pay adult because they can't prove their age.

3. If you want ticket barriers at stations on a DOO route, you'd need them to be staffed for alot of the time, because people will jump them or enter the station over a fence, or buy a child ticket because they know they'll not get checked.

4. People say there is a 'force of RPI's in London', but of the many times i've travelled in London, i've never seen one. The only time i've seen one in London was out of London transport, which was an FCC plain clothed RPI which was quite novel. Tfl seem to believe that by staffing all stations, they can prevent fare evasion, but people can just buy a child ticket or use a child oyster that has a lower price cap.

I just can't see TOC's shelling out the money to pay for a guard on every train or setting up barriers at every station.

 

[jon0844]

I sometimes wonder why FCC doesn't make ALL of its on-train RPIs wear plain clothes. I am sure they figure a uniform is a deterrent, but I'd have thought not knowing would be far more worrying for fare evaders, and those upgrading themselves to first class.

You would lose the benefit of having someone that could be approached for information, but I am not sure if all revenue staff are the best people to ask about things!

 

[chrisg]

There were lots of BTP/FCC RPIs at Elephant & Castle this morning. Whilst its great to catch fare dodgers (and I'm sure there are many on the Sutton-Luton route), it really makes it difficult for those who do have a ticket to get to work on time. As there is only one set of steps off of Platform 1 at E&C, it normally takes a good two or three minutes for the cascade of passengers to clear, touch out and leave the station. But this morning it took at least double that, so much so that at one point the mass of people on the stairs wasn't actually moving, we were just standing motionless waiting for people to get through. Especially as a BTP chap was interviewing a man at the very bottom of the stairs and confirming what sounded like his details over the phone - didn't help everyone trying to squeeze past!

I do see them on the train sometimes, going towards Sutton via Wimbledon. I don't really see the point though, as all stations until you get past Wimbledon have barriers. Wouldn't it be more sensible for them to ride backwards and forwards between Sutton and Wimbledon, where the stations have no barriers and no staff and catch everyone trying to make a run for it? Just a thought!

 

[jon0844]

I do sometimes wonder how they plan the routes for RPIs, but then I see them filling in their logsheets and get the impression they're pretty much free to roam as they please.

Being on specific trains isn't always possible as they may be held up dealing with people on the platform after taking someone off a train (or coming off with them) so I suppose this makes sense.

Every now and then they'll come together for a sting, but I do wonder if RPIs just cherry pick routes where they feel they'll get easy PFs - or, as in the case of the train with the staff who didn't want to do a ticket check, get the quiet services and relax.

 

[DarkestDreams]

You seem to get a lot of fare dodgers on the DLR, but I've seen a lot of ticket checks on the new Stratford International branch. I think people have worked out that by getting on at Stratford High Street (30-seconds away from Stratford) they can then board any train without a ticket without having to sneak through the barriers.

Good words for the guards though - they seem to know who is lying and who is genuine. I forgot to touch in once and the guard was very pleasant when I talked to him, yet he duly caught a city bloke who was clearly trying to get a free ride.

 

[John @ home]

I do see them on the train sometimes, going towards Sutton via Wimbledon. I don't really see the point though, as all stations until you get past Wimbledon have barriers.

Haydons Road now has barriers?!

Wouldn't it be more sensible for them to ride backwards and forwards between Sutton and Wimbledon, where the stations have no barriers and no staff

I think you are observing FCC RPIs going to and from their signing-on point.

 

[chrisg]

Forgot Haydon's Road - meant mainly Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham and Tooting.

I know its TFL and not NR, but the other day there were TFL RPIs at the end of the moving walkway between the Jubilee and Northern lines at Waterloo Underground. What could they have been checking, as Waterloo Underground and most TFL stations are gated? I suppose someone could have used the DLR to get into Bank and get the Northern line without paying, but I don't know how they would have managed to get through the barriers at the other end. The only thing I could think of was checking for people using child fares or not.

 

[mappman1000]

Forgot Haydon's Road - meant mainly Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham and Tooting.

I know its TFL and not NR, but the other day there were TFL RPIs at the end of the moving walkway between the Jubilee and Northern lines at Waterloo Underground. What could they have been checking, as Waterloo Underground and most TFL stations are gated? I suppose someone could have used the DLR to get into Bank and get the Northern line without paying, but I don't know how they would have managed to get through the barriers at the other end. The only thing I could think of was checking for people using child fares or not.

Alot of people use invalid oysters, such as using a child one that has a price cap of something between £1 and £2. Also, they could be using a child travelcard.

 

[SWT_USER]

I had a TFL RPI come on to the bus this morning (not a bendy bus) and check everyone's tickets. He had caught out at least one by the time I got off.

 

[upnorth71]

Interesting discussion about barriers and fare evasion. I have noticed that Americans are even more hostile to barrier gates, don't know if it's cultural or just unfamiliarity. Here in Japan most stations have automatic barriers, stations without barriers are usually the rural, unmanned ones where you buy a ticket on the train either from the guard or just pay your fare to the driver, much like on a bus (there is a fare box/change machine next to the driver's stand). There are no complaints about the system, it is taken for granted. Some points:
1. Almost all ticketing is done through ticket machines, which can produce long distance tickets if necessary. Ticket machines are always in working order- I have never encountered a broken machine in the 16+ years I have lived here.
2. Platform tickets are easily available from said machines for the equivalent of a quid (140 yen)
3. Most automatic barriers also have a station attendant present, if you have doubts about your ticket or are using a plain paper ticket or railpass, just show it to him/her.
4. In the big urban areas, IC cards similar to Oyster are used for urban/suburban travel (in addition to traditional magnetic backed paper tickets)- these are usable across all railway lines of different companies and most bus lines. Passing through barriers is so rapid that it's almost as if the barrier is not there. If an adult passes through a barrier with a child or disability card, he may get caught as the barrier has a warning light that illuminates when such a card is used.
So, fare evasion is not a common occurrence, though more for cultural reasons than the above systems. It may be the biggest fare dodgers are US military personnel out on R&R (jumping barriers, etc.)...
Anyway, barriers at stations (whether automatic or manned) protect revenue and also allow on-train personnel to focus on train operation and passenger safety, rather than chasing down fare dodgers. Barriers, if done right, are effective and don't impede passenger traffic or create inconvenience.

 

[LexyBoy]

How about a reward for snitching on fare evaders of 50% of the cost of the ticket they get sold?

Forgot Haydon's Road - meant mainly Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham and Tooting.

Herne Hill isn't barriered is it? I can't think of anywhere barriers could be installed without causing chaos (not that that's usually a problem). Re your point about the inspectors - another favourite is tailgating people through, or using an invalid ticket/oyster when there's someone immediately behind - by the time the evader has walked forward into the closed barrier, the person behind has touched in and opened the gates for them

 

[calc7]

How about a reward for snitching on fare evaders of 50% of the cost of the ticket they get sold?

That'd have seen me get £70 on Monday.

 

[Mojo]

4. People say there is a 'force of RPI's in London', but of the many times i've travelled in London, i've never seen one. The only time i've seen one in London was out of London transport, which was an FCC plain clothed RPI which was quite novel. Tfl seem to believe that by staffing all stations, they can prevent fare evasion, but people can just buy a child ticket or use a child oyster that has a lower price cap.

London Underground has over 200 Revenue Control Inspectors (RCIs) and they are most definitely out there. You probably haven't noticed the subtle difference in uniform between RCIs and other station staff or the fact that they do a lot of work in plain clothes. They are mainly seen in ticket halls watching customers pass through the gates and looking out for double-gating, child tickets or ''high value'' products (eg. staff passes) which show up as an indication on the gate. If you don't use any of these products then you probably won't notice they are there. They also carry out irregular on-train surveys but the sheer number of customers mean intelligence based operations are the best way to go.

I know its TFL and not NR, but the other day there were TFL RPIs at the end of the moving walkway between the Jubilee and Northern lines at Waterloo Underground.

They are most likely London Underground RCIs. TfL RPIs only work on buses.

What could they have been checking, as Waterloo Underground and most TFL stations are gated? I suppose someone could have used the DLR to get into Bank and get the Northern line without paying, but I don't know how they would have managed to get through the barriers at the other end. The only thing I could think of was checking for people using child fares or not.

Aaargh! No! Ticket gates do not stop people accessing the system without a ticket. It is easy to pass through barriers without a ticket by double-gating. There are also plenty of locations where there are routes to avoid the barriers (eg. via lifts). Customers may also have passed through the barriers with a ticket that they are not entitled to hold (eg. it belongs to someone else).

Alot of people use invalid oysters, such as using a child one that has a price cap of something between £1 and £2. Also, they could be using a child travelcard.

You can only have a Child Oyster card if you apply through the TfL website or Post Office, and in both cases ID is required to be presented. I therefore doubt that the number of Child Oyster cards being used by adults is that high.