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Fare Evasion. Any advice?

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desmondlkl

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16 Oct 2019
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3
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Just yesterday, I happily bought tickets to Stratford-Upon-Avon for a day trip from London Marylebone with Chiltern Railways.

I mistakenly bought a single ticket, rather than a return and didn't realize it because two tickets popped out of the machine and I thought one was for the outbound and the other was for the inbound. It turns out that the second ticket was a receipt...

So at the end of the day, I realised my mistake and was left without a return ticket back. Ticket offices were closed at SAV, so I couldn't pay the difference to get it changed to a return. I stupidly decided to take matters into my own hands and "calculated the difference" and bought a ticket back to Marylebone from Wembley Stadium... just so I had something to put into a gantry at Marylebone and also feel better about not being able to just pay the difference for a change in ticket.

I inserted the ticket into the gantry at Marylebone and expected it to open, but to my horror it didn't... Turns out I had a ticket for next Sunday instead of yesterday, only because when I went to check the difference in fares, I changed the date on the app one week ahead so that I can compare fares on a Sunday and then promptly booked it because the train was going to depart (all outbound trains to SAV from Marylebone departed, so I couldn't compare today's fare).

So I went to a ticket guard, trying to get away with what I did but panicked and fumbled terribly... I initially tried to insist that I came from Wembley Stadium, but obviously the train I came off didn't stop there and they were able to check the time the ticket was printed and the supposed location it was printed at. They said it was printed at Bicester North and stupid me thought, Bicester North it is...

So now, I've been caught paying for a shorter trip, lying about my origin station and then lying about my origin again.

I've been reading the forums and am really afraid I'll be brought to court for my offences and aggravated by the fact that I lied twice about my origin station... I obviously regret doing that and wondering what my best recourse is... Does the circumstances in which I decided to do this relevant or will I be prosecuted based on the fact that I did not have a proper return ticket? This is the first time I did this and I'm really regretting it!!!

p.s. I was a little tipsy last night and my thinking was impaired... I am feeling so guilty about everything now that I'm sober. I'm thinking of going back to the station as soon as it opens and confess what happened...
 
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Fawkes Cat

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8 May 2017
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Don't panic. If the railway want to take this further, they'll be in touch with you, so you don't need to rush back to Marylebone to talk to them today.

But that's as far as the good news goes. If they do want to take things further, then you'll either be looking at paying some sort of out of court settlement, or being taken to court - and as far as I can see, you haven't got a leg to stand on in that while you did try to pay the right amount (as you saw it) you didn't do it in the right way (i.e. finding someone from the railway to sell you an excess fare ticket).

The railway may agree to an out of court settlement, but only if they're certain that this was a mistake that you won't repeat, and if they don't end up out of pocket as a result of the whole exercise. So if they are in touch, write back telling them
- that you're sorry and you understand that it's important to pay the right fare, and will do so in future:
- that you would be willing to pay the outstanding fare and any costs that the railway has incurred in investigating this matter.

Write briefly and courteously as you want to get whoever reads your letter on your side: don't try to use the fact that you were a little drunk as an excuse - whoever reads your letter will have heard it all before, and objectively speaking the fact that you were drunk isn't really the railway's problem.
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
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6,996
Just yesterday, I happily bought tickets to Stratford-Upon-Avon for a day trip from London Marylebone with Chiltern Railways.

I mistakenly bought a single ticket, rather than a return and didn't realize it because two tickets popped out of the machine and I thought one was for the outbound and the other was for the inbound. It turns out that the second ticket was a receipt...

So at the end of the day, I realised my mistake and was left without a return ticket back. Ticket offices were closed at SAV, so I couldn't pay the difference to get it changed to a return. I stupidly decided to take matters into my own hands and "calculated the difference" and bought a ticket back to Marylebone from Wembley Stadium... just so I had something to put into a gantry at Marylebone and also feel better about not being able to just pay the difference for a change in ticket.

I inserted the ticket into the gantry at Marylebone and expected it to open, but to my horror it didn't... Turns out I had a ticket for next Sunday instead of yesterday, only because when I went to check the difference in fares, I changed the date on the app one week ahead so that I can compare fares on a Sunday and then promptly booked it because the train was going to depart (all outbound trains to SAV from Marylebone departed, so I couldn't compare today's fare).

So I went to a ticket guard, trying to get away with what I did but panicked and fumbled terribly... I initially tried to insist that I came from Wembley Stadium, but obviously the train I came off didn't stop there and they were able to check the time the ticket was printed and the supposed location it was printed at. They said it was printed at Bicester North and stupid me thought, Bicester North it is...

So now, I've been caught paying for a shorter trip, lying about my origin station and then lying about my origin again.

I've been reading the forums and am really afraid I'll be brought to court for my offences and aggravated by the fact that I lied twice about my origin station... I obviously regret doing that and wondering what my best recourse is... Does the circumstances in which I decided to do this relevant or will I be prosecuted based on the fact that I did not have a proper return ticket? This is the first time I did this and I'm really regretting it!!!

p.s. I was a little tipsy last night and my thinking was impaired... I am feeling so guilty about everything now that I'm sober. I'm thinking of going back to the station as soon as it opens and confess what happened...
I think it would be possible for you to set out (dispassionately) what you did, and why you did it, and that you had wanted to pay the price for the ticket you should have bought n the hope that they might just 'buy it' when you get asked for your side of the story.

Whilst it is fresh in your mind try doing a draft based on your post - you could post here for comment if you think that would help.

Of course it's another example of why ticket machines (for a complicated fares structure where singles and returns are not priced 'logically' in the eyes of most passengers) instead of staff based ticket sales are not always a great idea. You'd have been very unlikely to have ended up with a single if you had bought the ticket from a member of staff I suspect.
 

Blinkbonny

Member
Joined
16 Mar 2018
Messages
349
Do you still have the outward ticket? It is unlikely to have being collected at Stratford.

It would add credence to your story, as I suspect a day return wouldn't have been very much more than a single.
 

WesternLancer

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Messages
6,996
Do you still have the outward ticket? It is unlikely to have being collected at Stratford.

It would add credence to your story, as I suspect a day return wouldn't have been very much more than a single.
and if not the ticket the OP probably has a payment record on a bank card used at the ticket machine that would match the fare due, as a fall back form of evidence.
 

WesternLancer

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12 Apr 2019
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6,996
Marylebone to Stratford Super Off Peak Rtn - £32.30
Marylebone to Stratford Super Off Peak Single - £32.20

so you owed 10p if I have these fares correct

Wembley Stadium - Marylebone Anytime Day Single - £5.70

from: http://www.brfares.com/#home

ie a far more generous payment to Chiltern than was originally required, due to a mistake that in fcat many people in a hurry, and or unfamiliar with a ticket machine, might make.

But your offence relates to travel without a valid ticket, which is of course what you were in fact guilty of doing as an untended consequence. You will need to appeal to their better nature.

I assume they took your details to pass to revenue protection team? You don't say if that was the outcome at the barrier line.
 

some bloke

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Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
As there's quite a few things you did wrong, to get the story clear while you don't have a deadline you could write headings for each, and note any possible mitigation. Dividing it up may help you to see if there is mitigation.

In a letter you would have to strike a balance between presenting your case clearly, and prioritising so it isn't too long. Bear in mind that they may be very sceptical of what you write.

You could make notes on what the staff member and you said, before the memory fades.

It might help a little if you have evidence and/or reasons to believe that:
a) you always meant to return the same day
and/or
b) you wouldn't be available to use the Wembley ticket next Sunday.

It seems you needed a single ticket for the whole journey.
A ticket cannot be excessed if it has been fully used as your contract has ended, so you can't take a single to a ticket office at your destination and expect an excess to return.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,651
I had this once, where the ticket machine shows 'popular journeys' and spews out a quick ticket to your destination for a single, and given the price, two pieces of paper and that you assume that the logical journey would be a return, can easily be mistaken for a return ticket. Luckily they just let me pay for a new single on the return train when I realised rather than any penalty fare, but it was still galling.

Certainly going to a human helps as has been suggested above; on a couple of occasions when I've asked for a single they've said I should have a return as it is cheaper (!!). So when you get into this bother over 10p it is incredibly annoying.
 

1B85

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13 Apr 2017
Messages
88
I had this happen to me once, a few years ago. I must have accidentally hit single instead of return on the machine at the unstaffed station. There was no onboard ticket check, so I went directly to the counter at Nottingham station and explained the situation. They proceeded to tell me that on arrival at Nottingham, my journey was completed and my single ticket no longer valid, so no changes could be made to it, and the only option available if I wanted to go back to my origin was another full price single ticket (the difference between the single and return fare was 5p). I had no choice but to cough up another single fare a few hours later.

I wrote to East Midlands Trains and they confirmed what I had been told was correct. :rolleyes:
 

WesternLancer

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6,996
I had this happen to me once, a few years ago. I must have accidentally hit single instead of return on the machine at the unstaffed station. There was no onboard ticket check, so I went directly to the counter at Nottingham station and explained the situation. They proceeded to tell me that on arrival at Nottingham, my journey was completed and my single ticket no longer valid, so no changes could be made to it, and the only option available if I wanted to go back to my origin was another full price single ticket (the difference between the single and return fare was 5p). I had no choice but to cough up another single fare a few hours later.

I wrote to East Midlands Trains and they confirmed what I had been told was correct. :rolleyes:
So in that scenario, had you actually gone to speak to on train staff member during the journey and asked for help in correcting this would they have excessed the ticket and corrected it? Taken 5p from you and given a return.

In the OP's case it was Chiltern and am I right to think they are One Person operated, so it would be hard to get an error corrected as a good chance the 1st person you would encounter would be barrier line staff at arrival at destination.

All of this a downside of penalty fare scenarios at stations which are unstaffed and have compulsory ticket machines, which at least for some, esp irregular users, can be baffling in terms of issuing the correct (cheapest) ticket, but the passenger is 'forced' to use them.
 

Haywain

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14,877
So in that scenario, had you actually gone to speak to on train staff member during the journey and asked for help in correcting this would they have excessed the ticket and corrected it? Taken 5p from you and given a return.

In the OP's case it was Chiltern and am I right to think they are One Person operated, so it would be hard to get an error corrected as a good chance the 1st person you would encounter would be barrier line staff at arrival at destination.

All of this a downside of penalty fare scenarios at stations which are unstaffed and have compulsory ticket machines, which at least for some, esp irregular users, can be baffling in terms of issuing the correct (cheapest) ticket, but the passenger is 'forced' to use them.
It is worth bearing in mind that the ability to issue an excess fare to convert a ticket from a single to a return is a relatively recent development and it seems reasonable to assume that this came about as a result of the increase in use of TVMs. In the situation described by 1B85 at Nottingham it seems they were somewhat churlish in refusing the excess if it was indeed requested immediately on arrival, whereas if it had been requested several hours later refusal would be entirely understandable.
 
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There would have been a guard on the train between Stratford upon Avon and Banbury who the OP could have spoken to.
 

WesternLancer

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Even better on the outward trip, but are they checking/issuing tickets ATM?
Well, I took it that the OP only relised his receipt was not the rtn portion when he got it out to look at on the rtn journey or perhaps reading it again on platform ahead of joining rtn journey

"So at the end of the day, I realised my mistake and was left without a return ticket back. Ticket offices were closed at SAV, so I couldn't pay the difference to get it changed to a return. I stupidly decided to take matters into my own hands and "calculated the difference" and bought a ticket back to Marylebone from Wembley Stadium... just so I had something to put into a gantry at Marylebone and also feel better about not being able to just pay the difference for a change in ticket. "

Tho later on the OP says the ticket was printed at Bicester North They said it was printed at Bicester North, but does not explain how it was that he bought that ticket there, although no doubt a fairly simple explanation to that.

So the missed chance was at S-on-Avon to Banbury to ask staff about it, but I suspect due to covid restrictions staff was not doing a check or present in passenger saloon where OP was sitting.
 

30907

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Well, I took it that the OP only relised his receipt was not the rtn portion when he got it out to look at on the rtn journey or perhaps reading it again on platform ahead of joining rtn journey

"So at the end of the day...
Fair point - I didn't take the phrase literally. Bit academic anyway. But it may help the OP slightly to be able to say that their ticket wasn't checked en route.
 

WesternLancer

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Fair point - I didn't take the phrase literally. Bit academic anyway. But it may help the OP slightly to be able to say that their ticket wasn't checked en route.
Point well made.
I note OP has not yet been back to the thread for a few days.
 
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