Fare evasion - is it worth it?

[TurbostarFan]

I would like to know why it is that some Train Operating Companies take such a lax stance on revenue protection that it can actually be cheaper to fare evade then to buy tickets for regular journeys. For the record, I am not actually condoning such behaviour.

 

[6Gman]

I would like to know why it is that some Train Operating Companies take such a lax stance on fare evasion that it can actually be cheaper to fare evade then to buy tickets for regular journeys. I am not actually condoning such behaviour, I am only making a point.

Which Train Operating Companies?

 

[TurbostarFan]

Which Train Operating Companies?

GTR and Southeastern for example.

 

[bobblebob]

Northern Rail too. Only seem to check tickets on the train 50% of the time, and if they dont many of their stations just let you buy the ticket at the station. With so many unmanned/no card machine stations near here, you can easily just say you came from one of them and no one came around the train for you to buy a ticket

 

[mmh]

Contrary to the common belief on here, not having a ticket does not automatically imply fare evasion.

There also seems to be a strange belief that if there's no ticket check, everyone else doesn't have one. You can't possibly know that.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Contrary to the common belief on here, not having a ticket does not automatically imply fare evasion.

There also seems to be a strange belief that if there's no ticket check, everyone else doesn't have one. You can't possibly know that.

Correct, there are a number of paytrains (GA are one company who operate them) where you can buy onboard the train. Some of the stations that they call at don't have the facilities to purchase tickets.

 

[oversteer]

Or (opens can of worms) London Northwestern (provided the guard gets to you before the RPIs do)

 

[neilmc]

If a TOC only checks tickets 50% of the time, then you have to pay the daily fare 50% of the time which might not be much of a saving on a season ticket, also that will only really work if you are both boarding and alighting at an unstaffed station which will not be the case for many commuters. Sure, you could "short fare" at a large terminal station by claiming to have boarded at a station closer to your destination but occasionally there are stings carried out at stations where the number of claimed ticket sales exceed the number of observed passengers, and genuine passengers will be sold tickets/given documentation by roving RPIs. Do you really want to be scanning the platforms at, say, Burley Park every single day to see whether there are any signs of rail staff if you are thinking of short faring? I wouldn't think it worth the worry. Also bear in mind that whatever you try, you might get away with a "penalty fake" charge the first time you're caught and think it balanced out, but the next time they may go for a prosecution instead which will cost you much more.

I'm sure the TOCs have thought it out and, yes, some journeys might evade any kind of ticket check on a regular basis and if you can board at a station with no opportunity to pay and alight likewise then you're in the clear, but these flows are likely to be very small and they cover the vast majority of regular travellers by the ticketing arrangements they do have.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Or (opens can of worms) London Northwestern (provided the guard gets to you before the RPIs do)

Not a paytrain then, paytrains don't have RPIs onboard.

 

[TurbostarFan]

If a TOC only checks tickets 50% of the time, then you have to pay the daily fare 50% of the time which might not be much of a saving on a season ticket, also that will only really work if you are both boarding and alighting at an unstaffed station which will not be the case for many commuters. Sure, you could "short fare" at a large terminal station by claiming to have boarded at a station closer to your destination but occasionally there are stings carried out at stations where the number of claimed ticket sales exceed the number of observed passengers, and genuine passengers will be sold tickets/given documentation by roving RPIs. Do you really want to be scanning the platforms at, say, Burley Park every single day to see whether there are any signs of rail staff if you are thinking of short faring? I wouldn't think it worth the worry. Also bear in mind that whatever you try, you might get away with a "penalty fake" charge the first time you're caught and think it balanced out, but the next time they may go for a prosecution instead which will cost you much more.

I'm sure the TOCs have thought it out and, yes, some journeys might evade any kind of ticket check on a regular basis and if you can board at a station with no opportunity to pay and alight likewise then you're in the clear, but these flows are likely to be very small and they cover the vast majority of regular travellers by the ticketing arrangements they do have.

Fair point. I'm not planning on doing it anytime soon as fare evasion is an illegal and immoral practice.

 

[Starmill]

Southeastern's mainline trains all have a guard, and I usually see them coming through checking tickets. The Onboard Manager on Southeastern Highspeed has inspected my ticket every time I've travelled. They've also been known to engage in a deeply unethical practice of Penalty Faring certain Oyster customers who've done nothing wrong and wouldn't be penalised on LU (where the balance goes down to, say - £.30 on touching out, to be topped up again later). They have stations with gatelines that are generally kept closed at major stations. Of course, the Metro routes do seem to have something of a problem but for Southeastern as a whole the idea of 'lax' revenue protection seems silly.

Northern have been known well for issuing Penalty Fares or £80 admin fees to people who haven't had a chance to buy a ticket yet, and have threatened me with this on a number of occasions. Furthermore on one occasion they insisted on the recording of my details to collect my fare, as the staff refused to accept my payment then and there. This is obviously an unethical and probably illegal practice and I've received a letter saying it is the correct procedure. The company have insisted this to me and to my MP. Lax is the opposite of how I would describe revenue protection at Northern.

 

[Starmill]

Not a paytrain then, paytrains don't have RPIs onboard.

"Paytrains" no longer exist. The rules are the same everywhere, you should purchase a ticket before boarding, unless you can't or you have permission to travel. The only real exceptions are Hull Trains and Grand Central.

 

[Mag_seven]

I would like to know why it is that some Train Operating Companies take such a lax stance on fare evasion

Do you actually mean a lax stance on ticket inspection rather than fare evasion? The two are different. I can't imagine any TOC would be lax on anyone caught evading their fare.

 

[TurbostarFan]

"Paytrains" no longer exist. The rules are the same everywhere, you should purchase a ticket before boarding, unless you can't or you have permission to travel. The only real exceptions are Hull Trains and Grand Central.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree then, GA still operate paytrains on some of their lines, these include: Norwich - Ely, Stowmarket - Peterborough, Stowmarket- Cambridge, Norwich - Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft, Ipswich - Lowestoft etc.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Do you actually mean a lax stance on ticket inspection rather than fare evasion? The two are different. I can't imagine any TOC would be lax on anyone caught evading their fare.

That's what I actually meant, my mistake. Post amended accordingly.

 

[6Gman]

GTR and Southeastern are a couple of examples.

Don't use either of those much, but on my last trip on Southeastern our tickets were checked on departure (outbound) and arrival (on the return). The last time I used GTR it was checked at both ends of the journey.

 

[Starmill]

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree then, GA still operate paytrains on some of their lines, these include: Norwich - Ely, Stowmarket - Peterborough, Stowmarket- Cambridge, Norwich - Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft, Ipswich - Lowestoft etc.

Apart from a leaflet from 2002 I couldn't find any reference to "Paytrains" other than unverified claims on this forum. So in the absence of any evidence... I would note that you claim that Norwich - Ely is a route where you can pay on the train, despite the fact that both Norwich and Ely stations have signs up that say that Penalty Fares apply to Greater Anglia services from those stations. I don't see how it could be both.

You mentioned 'Paytrain' first in connection with West Midlands Trains, and I can't find any sort of evidence that their routes used to operate as "paytrains".

 

[PeterC]

"Paytrains" no longer exist. The rules are the same everywhere, you should purchase a ticket before boarding, unless you can't or you have permission to travel. The only real exceptions are Hull Trains and Grand Central.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree then, GA still operate paytrains on some of their lines, these include: Norwich - Ely, Stowmarket - Peterborough, Stowmarket- Cambridge, Norwich - Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft, Ipswich - Lowestoft etc.

Not longer operate or just a change of terminology?

 

[Starmill]

Not longer operate or just a change of terminology?

Maybe. It's not clear to me from Greater Anglia's website what their policy would be.

We do know that, in general, guards cannot issue Penalty Fares. In general, therefore, if you board a train and are reached first by the guard, you'll be sold a ticket even if you would have been liable for a Penalty Fare. This inconsistency is common practice all over the country. It's hard to think of a Penalty Fare scheme that is unaffected by this issue. Merseyrail is probably the only one, plus TfL Rail and London Overground, who don't employ guards.

 

[mmh]

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree then, GA still operate paytrains on some of their lines, these include: Norwich - Ely, Stowmarket - Peterborough, Stowmarket- Cambridge, Norwich - Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft, Ipswich - Lowestoft etc.

They really don't. It's an archaic term from the 60s and 70s that hasn't been used in decades.

Whether you should buy before depends only on the facilities available at your origin station, not the trains or operators you use.

A few months ago, 3 hours into my journey, I bought a ticket onboard a train when checked between Milton Keynes and Euston. Do Virgin run "paytrains"? Obviously they don't.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Apart from a leaflet from 2002 I couldn't find any reference to "Paytrains" other than unverified claims on this forum. So in the absence of any evidence... I would note that you claim that Norwich - Ely is a route where you can pay on the train, despite the fact that both Norwich and Ely stations have signs up that say that Penalty Fares apply to Greater Anglia services from those stations. I don't see how it could be both.

You mentioned 'Paytrain' first in connection with West Midlands Trains, and I can't find any sort of evidence that their routes used to operate as "paytrains".

I meant East Midlands Trains and in all fairness I was wrong.

As for Norwich and Ely, those stations are exceptions and you can't pay on the train there. However my point is that on all stations between those two stations i.e. all stations from Wymondham to Shippea Hill (inclusive), the train does operate as a paytrain where you can buy your ticket onboard the train. This applies even if a ticket office is open and/or a TVM is available. Even if you did board a train to Cambridge via Ely at Norwich without a ticket or a train to Norwich at Ely, then no penalty fare could be charged as paytrain services are (with some exceptions such as between Ely and Cambridge) exempt from the penalty fare scheme. That said as Norwich and Ely have full time ticket offices and TVMs, you would be expected to buy your ticket before you board the train. If you didn't you could receive a warning or be reported for prosecution in addition to being sold a ticket by the conductor onboard.

 

[bobblebob]

Friend actually got threatened with a penalty notice not so long ago, but thankfully common sense prevailed.

Arrived at a small station 10 mins before his train. Unmanned but 1 self service machine with a queue of 20 or so people. He waited and his train turned up before he could buy a ticket. He then was questioned as to why he didnt have a ticket and was told its a condition of travel you purchase one as there were facilities there to do so.

He explained and was sold a ticket there and then. What else can you do if the facilities arent adequate to deal with so many passengers.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Friend actually got threatened with a penalty notice not so long ago, but thankfully common sense prevailed.

Arrived at a small station 10 mins before his train. Unmanned but 1 self service machine with a queue of 20 or so people. He waited and his train turned up before he could buy a ticket. He then was questioned as to why he didnt have a ticket and was told its a condition of travel you purchase one as there were facilities there to do so.

He explained and was sold a ticket there and then. What else can you do if the facilities arent adequate to deal with so many passengers.

Many thanks for this, I'd imagine that this would have been grounds for appeal if the notice had actually been issued.

 

[cuccir]

Going back 15 years, when I moved to the North-East, I was told by friends who'd grown up in the region that many people didn't bother buying tickets for the Tyne and Wear Metro. They reckoned that the cost of a penalty fare was less than the amount that would typically be saved by not buying a ticket; in other words, you could pay a £20 penalty fare every month or two but avoid paying the rest of the time. No idea how accurate their claims were of course! I do think that there seemed to be an increase in ticket checks on the Metro in the late-2000s, and the central stations in Newcastle are now barriered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going back 15 years, when I moved to the North-East, I was told by friends who'd grown up in the region that many people didn't bother buying tickets for the Tyne and Wear Metro. They reckoned that the cost of a penalty fare was less than the amount that would typically be saved by not buying a ticket; in other words, you could pay a £20 penalty fare every month or two but avoid paying the rest of the time. No idea how accurate their claims were of course! I do think that there seemed to be an increase in ticket checks on the Metro in the late-2000s, and the central stations in Newcastle are now barriered.

You can counter this in a way - increase the PF and inspection regime such that you get the same or more income minus enforcement costs from the fare-dodging community as a whole as you would if they all paid properly, and then you stop worrying about it. The TOC needn't bother itself about if 1 person pays £20 or 20 people pay £1 as long as they get their £20, say.

 

[221129]

Many thanks for this, I'd imagine that this would have been grounds for appeal if the notice had actually been issued.

Its not.

 

[mattdickinson]

I meant East Midlands Trains and in all fairness I was wrong.

As for Norwich and Ely, those stations are exceptions and you can't pay on the train there. However my point is that on all stations between those two stations i.e. all stations from Wymondham to Shippea Hill (inclusive), the train does operate as a paytrain where you can buy your ticket onboard the train. This applies even if a ticket office is open and/or a TVM is available. Even if you did board a train to Cambridge via Ely at Norwich without a ticket or a train to Norwich at Ely, then no penalty fare could be charged as paytrain services are (with some exceptions such as between Ely and Cambridge) exempt from the penalty fare scheme. That said as Norwich and Ely have full time ticket offices and TVMs, you would be expected to buy your ticket before you board the train. If you didn't you could receive a warning or be reported for prosecution in addition to being sold a ticket by the conductor onboard.

Paytrains are mentioned in current West Midlands Railway publicity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paytrains are mentioned in current West Midlands Railway publicity.

The attached PDF does not contain the word "Paytrain" that I can see? Just some stations are marked as not PF stations, e.g. Marston Vale.

Some staff at Bletchley did, before the barriers being staffed for the whole period of service as they now are, consider that line a "Paytrain line" and direct people who were in a hurry to pay on the train, but that was unofficial so far as I know.

 

[52290]

Friend actually got threatened with a penalty notice not so long ago, but thankfully common sense prevailed.

Arrived at a small station 10 mins before his train. Unmanned but 1 self service machine with a queue of 20 or so people. He waited and his train turned up before he could buy a ticket. He then was questioned as to why he didnt have a ticket and was told its a condition of travel you purchase one as there were facilities there to do so.

He explained and was sold a ticket there and then. What else can you do if the facilities arent adequate to deal with so many passengers.

Yesterday my partner and I decided to travel from Euxton Balshaw Lane to Liverpool Lime Street. This gave me my first opportunity to use the fairly new TVM at this station. The initial screen was glowing with dire warnings about boarding a train without a ticket so I thought I'd better get one quick. The first screen of "popular destinations" was totally blank, I wasn't expecting to see Georgemas Junction but I thought at least Lime Street would have been on. After carefully typing everything out, being careful to get my senior railcard discount, it refused to accept any of my three payment cards. Eventually after starting from scratch twice I got it to accept payment from my contactless card. After this though the machine seemed to pack up completely and my partner and some other people couldn't get anything other than a "promise to pay" ticket out of it.
On the train the conductor issued tickets without any problems. Both he and I were both amused that the TVM had issued my ticket at the old price and not the new one that came in yesterday, a saving of 30p!

 

[mattdickinson]

The attached PDF does not contain the word "Paytrain" that I can see? Just some stations are marked as not PF stations, e.g. Marston Vale.

Some staff at Bletchley did, before the barriers being staffed for the whole period of service as they now are, consider that line a "Paytrain line" and direct people who were in a hurry to pay on the train, but that was unofficial so far as I know.

It's in the map legend:

Penalty Fare Station in orange

Pay train station in black

Compulsory ticket station in blue