Fare evasion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Delegah20

New Member
Joined
12 Mar 2021
Messages
4
Location
London
On the 5 of February I was coming out the underground station in Victoria.. and tapped out using my contactless card. Even though I have tapped in the previous station that I got in, once I got at Victoria station I tapped out but My card didn’t work. So I was intercepted by a transport police. even though I try to explained to him that I don’t know why my card stop working, he told me that is still an offence. He took my details down and said he’s going to contact me, a month l later I got an email from him saying I should come down to a police to take my fingerprints and photo. Even though I didn’t get any court hearing or a penalty fare, what should I do next.. any help pls
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
13,943
Location
No longer here
The police don't usually work like this.

Was this a uniformed police officer with a warrant card? Was he alone?
 

Jan Mayen

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2020
Messages
174
Location
Sussex
I'm sure others will come along with better advice, but the first thing I'd do is get the card statement to prove you tapped in.
I'd then telephone the British Transport Police to confirm why they need to fingerprint and photograph you. My understanding is that this doesn't usually happen for this type of offence. Also check if you will be interviewed under caution, in which case I'd arrange for a legal aid lawyer to be with you when interviewed (I'm assuming that anyone interviewed under caution in a police station can still have free legal representation).
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
12,139
Location
Airedale
I assume you have checked with the card issuer that there was no problem with the card Itself.
Also, if previous transactions (eg bus fares) had been declinedi due to insufficient funds, TfL might have blacklisted the card.
(No need to reply, but either of those might have caused the police to intervene.)
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,891
On the 5 of February I was coming out the underground station in Victoria.. and tapped out using my contactless card. Even though I have tapped in the previous station that I got in, once I got at Victoria station I tapped out but My card didn’t work. So I was intercepted by a transport police. even though I try to explained to him that I don’t know why my card stop working, he told me that is still an offence. He took my details down and said he’s going to contact me, a month l later I got an email from him saying I should come down to a police to take my fingerprints and photo. Even though I didn’t get any court hearing or a penalty fare, what should I do next.. any help pls
Is it possible that you are an overseas citizen, and although legally here in the UK, under a requirement (as citizens of some countries are) to report to the police regularly - do you have a card like a Home Office BRP card? That may explain why they want you to come to the police station, perhaps.

But I would def do as @Jan Mayen says which is good advice.

Also if you are eg a student - go to get help / advice from students union maybe before seeking legal assistance as that may save you costs
 

Delegah20

New Member
Joined
12 Mar 2021
Messages
4
Location
London
I'm sure others will come along with better advice, but the first thing I'd do is get the card statement to prove you tapped in.
I'd then telephone the British Transport Police to confirm why they need to fingerprint and photograph you. My understanding is that this doesn't usually happen for this type of offence. Also check if you will be interviewed under caution, in which case I'd arrange for a legal aid lawyer to be with you when interviewed (I'm assuming that anyone interviewed under caution in a police station can still have free legal representation).
It very strange, because I was expecting a letter for a court summons.. instead he send an email. Even when he took my details he told me that I will receive a letter in the post to either go court or a penalty fare.

Is it possible that you are an overseas citizen, and although legally here in the UK, under a requirement (as citizens of some countries are) to report to the police regularly - do you have a card like a Home Office BRP card? That may explain why they want you to come to the police station, perhaps.

But I would def do as @Jan Mayen says which is good advice.

Also if you are eg a student - go to get help / advice from students union maybe before seeking legal assistance as that may save you costs
No only illegal immigrants are required to report to the police regularly. Am going seek legal assistant.

The police don't usually work like this.

Was this a uniformed police officer with a warrant card? Was he alone?
No he was not in his uniform, he was in a plain clothes. He show me his warrant card
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
13,943
Location
No longer here
No he was not in his uniform, he was in a plain clothes. He show me his warrant card
And would you recognise a genuine warrant card from a fake one? Sending you an email to interview you "and collect fingerprints" is not usually how the police work in the UK.

I urge you to visit your local police station and report the interaction to them, and show them the email. They will be able to tell you if this is genuine, and advise on the next steps.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,891
It very strange, because I was expecting a letter for a court summons.. instead he send an email. Even when he took my details he told me that I will receive a letter in the post to either go court or a penalty fare.


No only illegal immigrants are required to report to the police regularly. Am going seek legal assistant.


No he was not in his uniform, he was in a plain clothes. He show me his warrant card

Well, illegal immigrants are not likely (as it were) to report to police stations - by definition the UK govt does not know of their existence until they come to the attention of the police / govt etc! But it would in part be the role of the Police to find illegal immigrants....

I was referring to legal immigrants - people who are here in the UK legally - for example there are a lot of students in the UK from certain countries who are here with full legal entitlement to be in UK, but they have to report to the Police regularly - or at least pre covid they did - I think it may be that some different arrangements have been in place since start of the pandemic.

If this was a genuine police officer and he had suspicions of your immigration status and did not want to raise them then and there with you he MAY have cause to act in this way. But I think you need to guard against this being a trick

So I would do exactly as @AlterEgo suggests
 

zero

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2011
Messages
222
for example there are a lot of students in the UK from certain countries who are here with full legal entitlement to be in UK, but they have to report to the Police regularly

You may be thinking about the requirement for certain legal immigrants to register with the police. There is no requirement to report to the Police regularly.

This requirement applies to most people who are citizens of 42 countries, mostly but not all in Asia and the Middle East. Generally within 7 days of arriving in the UK, when having permission to stay for more than 6 months (so not a tourist) but not indefinitely, they must present themselves at a police station or a police office dedicated to this function, and pay £34 to get a Police Registration Certificate.

They must provide various personal details (scroll to bottom) as part of the registration, and when any of these details change they are obliged to notify the police within 7 days.


On the other hand, asylum seekers, who may have entered the UK in a way that would be illegal for non-asylum seekers to enter, do have to report regularly to immigration reporting centres.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,891
You may be thinking about the requirement for certain legal immigrants to register with the police. There is no requirement to report to the Police regularly.

This requirement applies to most people who are citizens of 42 countries, mostly but not all in Asia and the Middle East. Generally within 7 days of arriving in the UK, when having permission to stay for more than 6 months (so not a tourist) but not indefinitely, they must present themselves at a police station or a police office dedicated to this function, and pay £34 to get a Police Registration Certificate.

They must provide various personal details (scroll to bottom) as part of the registration, and when any of these details change they are obliged to notify the police within 7 days.


On the other hand, asylum seekers, who may have entered the UK in a way that would be illegal for non-asylum seekers to enter, do have to report regularly to immigration reporting centres.
Yes, thanks for clarification
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire

Under s 61 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE), a suspect’s fingerprints may be taken without consent if:

  • they are detained for a recordable offence;
  • they are charged with a recordable offence;
  • they are informed that they will be reported for such an offence;
  • a constable reasonably suspects them of committing or attempting to commit an offence, or they have committed or attempted to commit an offence, and: the name of the person is unknown to, and cannot be readily ascertained by, the constable; or the constable has reasonable grounds for doubting whether a name given by the person is their real name;

Have you been charged with a recordable offence? (e.g. Regulation of Railways Act 1889).

If not, it still sounds like you have been informed that you will be reported for such an offence.

In any event, if you give your consent and voluntarily provide the fingerprints/photo/DNA etc, the above doesn't apply anyway.
 

Delegah20

New Member
Joined
12 Mar 2021
Messages
4
Location
London



Have you been charged with a recordable offence? (e.g. Regulation of Railways Act 1889).

If not, it still sounds like you have been informed that you will be reported for such an offence.

In any event, if you give your consent and voluntarily provide the fingerprints/photo/DNA etc, the above doesn't apply anyway.
The email I received said I have been charged for fare evasion. But 99.9% for fare evasion you will always receive a letter to go court or to pay a penalty fare.. and this is my first time being charged for a fare evasion.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
The email I received said I have been charged for fare evasion. But 99.9% for fare evasion you will always receive a letter to go court or to pay a penalty fare.. and this is my first time being charged for a fare evasion.
If you've been charged, you must go to the police station and provide the fingerprint/photo/DNA information. If you don't, you can be forcibly made to attend and have those things forcibly collected.

You'll probably be handed a court date when you go to the police station, or receive a summons / postal requisition to appear at court in the post.

It sounds like you will be facing a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 recordable offence.

This is long past a Penalty Fare, and I doubt a police officer is even able to issue one.

If you plead guilty at court, and you were not abusive, disruptive or uncooperative at the time AND the value of the fare(s) is relatively small:

Category 3Band A fineConditional discharge – Band B fine

You will almost certainly be fined under Band A conditions.
Starting PointRange
Fine Band A50% of relevant weekly income25 – 75% of relevant weekly income

So if you earn £500 a week (gross), you will be fined around £250. If you plead guilty straight away, you will receive a discount, making the fine around £175.
(CPS) Prosecution Costs will be about £85-£100 (but no higher than £160 if you plead guilty without trial)
Compensation will be the value of the fare.
Victim Surcharge 10% of the fine or £34 (whatever is the higher amount).

So budget for £500, and you should be good, unless your salary is particularly high. Even with a very high salary you won't be fined more than £1000 (you would have to be earning £2000 a week gross to hit that!)

However you will receive a criminal record, for intentional fare evasion. This is likely to be considered a crime of "dishonesty" for the purposes of certain visas, careers etc.
 
Last edited:

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
Is it normal for BTP to take an email address when they ask for your details?

Yes, or any police force. It is not obligatory to provide it, but they can and do ask.

The MG11 "Magistrates Guidance" statement template forms, in some forces, even have a section to collect it. It is becoming increasingly common for communication to take place by email though as well, accelerated by COVID.

I dare say that our friends in Special Branch and other "spook" forces would always prefer to capture as much information as possible, especially relating to data held electronically, like email.
 

Delegah20

New Member
Joined
12 Mar 2021
Messages
4
Location
London
If you've been charged, you must go to the police station and provide the fingerprint/photo/DNA information. If you don't, you can be forcibly made to attend and have those things forcibly collected.

You'll probably be handed a court date when you go to the police station, or receive a summons / postal requisition to appear at court in the post.

It sounds like you will be facing a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 recordable offence.

This is long past a Penalty Fare, and I doubt a police officer is even able to issue one.

If you plead guilty at court, and you were not abusive, disruptive or uncooperative at the time AND the value of the fare(s) is relatively small:

Category 3Band A fineConditional discharge – Band B fine

You will almost certainly be fined under Band A conditions.
Starting PointRange
Fine Band A50% of relevant weekly income25 – 75% of relevant weekly income

So if you earn £500 a week (gross), you will be fined around £250. If you plead guilty straight away, you will receive a discount, making the fine around £175.
(CPS) Prosecution Costs will be about £85-£100 (but no higher than £160 if you plead guilty without trial)
Compensation will be the value of the fare.
Victim Surcharge 10% of the fine or £34 (whatever is the higher amount).

So budget for £500, and you should be good, unless your salary is particularly high. Even with a very high salary you won't be fined more than £1000 (you would have to be earning £2000 a week gross to hit that!)

However you will receive a criminal record, for intentional fare evasion. This is likely to be considered a crime of "dishonesty" for the purposes of certain visas, careers etc.
But even most intentional fare evasion, never go straight to the police they always send a letter to go court where you can plea guilty and not go to court and given a fine. This is my first time ever being a fare dodger

If you've been charged, you must go to the police station and provide the fingerprint/photo/DNA information. If you don't, you can be forcibly made to attend and have those things forcibly collected.

You'll probably be handed a court date when you go to the police station, or receive a summons / postal requisition to appear at court in the post.

It sounds like you will be facing a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 recordable offence.

This is long past a Penalty Fare, and I doubt a police officer is even able to issue one.

If you plead guilty at court, and you were not abusive, disruptive or uncooperative at the time AND the value of the fare(s) is relatively small:

Category 3Band A fineConditional discharge – Band B fine

You will almost certainly be fined under Band A conditions.
Starting PointRange
Fine Band A50% of relevant weekly income25 – 75% of relevant weekly income

So if you earn £500 a week (gross), you will be fined around £250. If you plead guilty straight away, you will receive a discount, making the fine around £175.
(CPS) Prosecution Costs will be about £85-£100 (but no higher than £160 if you plead guilty without trial)
Compensation will be the value of the fare.
Victim Surcharge 10% of the fine or £34 (whatever is the higher amount).

So budget for £500, and you should be good, unless your salary is particularly high. Even with a very high salary you won't be fined more than £1000 (you would have to be earning £2000 a week gross to hit that!)

However you will receive a criminal record, for intentional fare evasion. This is likely to be considered a crime of "dishonesty" for the purposes of certain visas, careers etc.
If I was gonna be handed a court date, they should have send a letter for me to appear in court instead of telling me to go Straight to the police station
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
1,410
But even most intentional fare evasion, never go straight to the police they always send a letter to go court where you can plea guilty and not go to court and given a fine. This is my first time ever being a fare dodger


If I was gonna be handed a court date, they should have send a letter for me to appear in court instead of telling me to go Straight to the police station
To reinforce some of the things that have been said: you seem to be being treated in a way that is unusual but isn't outside the rules.

So as it's unusual, you should check that everything is legitimate. To the good suggestions already made, I would add
- check the email address that was used to send you this message. Does it look like one that the police force (presumably British Transport Police (BTP)) would use? As BTP's website is at https://www.btp.police.uk/ I would expect their email addresses to be in the form <[email protected]> Edited to read: I gather from @Tazi Hupefi 's post below that you would expect the email address to look something like [email protected] Further edited and reverted to original in light of email address as actually shown on correspondence from BTP - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/greater-anglia-delay-repay-fraud.213418/post-5042484
- check the location you have been asked to go to. Again, I see that the BTP website has a page to find their police stations at https://www.btp.police.uk/contact/find-a-police-station/. Check that the location you have been told to go to is on there.

If the above details don't tie up with what you've been told, then I would suggest contacting the (real) BTP: I think that they'll be much more interested in you telling them about someone impersonating a police officer than about any fare-dodging that you may have done. If you need to do this, contact them on a phone number that you've found by yourself from the internet, rather than using any number that you have been sent by email.

But as I've said, the way you have been treated doesn't seem to be outside the rules. So if you have been sent a real email asking you to go to a real police station, my advice would be that you should attend. If you do have access to a lawyer (if you're a student, then your students union may be able to help: if you are a member of a trade union, your membership often includes access to a lawyer) then get in touch and see what they can do. At the very least, if you have a friend who can go to the police station with you then that would be a good idea: if it turns out to be a stressful meeting then it will be helpful to have someone there to help you remember what was said to you, and what you said as well.
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
13,943
Location
No longer here
The email I received said I have been charged for fare evasion. But 99.9% for fare evasion you will always receive a letter to go court or to pay a penalty fare.. and this is my first time being charged for a fare evasion.

Can you post the contents of the email here? Please redact any personal information. “Fare evasion” is not an offence, the charged offence should be more specific than this and give the statute you’re being charged under.
 

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,493
I am with AlterEgo on this. It all sounds a bit suspicious. A bloke approaches someone who he perceives may not be au fete with transport operations in the UK (absolutely no insult intended to the OP in any way), shows a fake ID. Uses an equally fake email address to ask for money. It happens in many parts of Europe with fake police but normally you're asked to pay a fine up front. As AlterEgo says post your email minus personal information and there will be those who can tell if it's bogus or not.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
Any notion that this is a scam is utterly absurd.

The chap is being asked to attend a police station. Nobody has asked for money, nor even any indication. He has been clearly asked to attend to comply with various regulations around providing DNA/Photography/Fingerprints as part of being charged after committing an offence.

I cannot see ANYTHING that is not normal about this case, it seems positively routine.

Stopped by plain clothes police officer after committing an offence.
Details taken, which included email.
Charged with an offence.
Requested to attend a police station to provide DNA etc as per PACE.
I suspect when attending you will be handed either a summons or you will eventually receive a summons by post (which can take a few months to arrange). Nothing at all unusual about being asked to provide DNA etc in the meantime.

Unless some forum members are that paranoid of corruption and scams, that anyone actually believes in this (very elaborate scam), that someone is being asked to attend a real police station so a scammer can extract money from the forum member, despite not being asked for money at any stage prior.

Absolute nonsense.

In any event, it sounds like the poster knows it is real, and rightfully so. He sounds more annoyed that it has gone straight to a police officer, rather than being stopped by a train ticket inspector and given a penalty fare.

In England and Wales, police email addresses should have pnn.police.uk at the end. E.g. [email protected] in any event, if you want to be extra sure.
 
Last edited:

Jan Mayen

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2020
Messages
174
Location
Sussex
I've been reading this thread with interest, but there are a couple of points I'd like to clarify.
The OP states they tapped in, but their card failed to tap out. Assuming the card hadn't been damaged since tap in, what other reasons would it fail to tap out?
If you didn't tap out on London Underground (regardless of whether the card was broken, the card reader was broken or you didn't bother trying), wouldn't London Underground just charge a maximum fare?
Even if the Police can insist you attend a police station, it feels a very over the top approach to me.
 

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,493
Any notion that this is a scam is utterly absurd.

The chap is being asked to attend a police station. Nobody has asked for money, nor even any indication. He has been clearly asked to attend to comply with various regulations around providing DNA/Photography/Fingerprints as part of being charged after committing an offence.

I cannot see ANYTHING that is not normal about this case, it seems positively routine.

Stopped by plain clothes police officer after committing an offence.
Details taken, which included email.
Charged with an offence.
Requested to attend a police station to provide DNA etc as per PACE.
I suspect when attending you will be handed either a summons or you will eventually receive a summons by post (which can take a few months to arrange). Nothing at all unusual about being asked to provide DNA etc in the meantime.

Unless some forum members are that paranoid of corruption and scams, that anyone actually believes in this (very elaborate scam), that someone is being asked to attend a real police station so a scammer can extract money from the forum member, despite not being asked for money at any stage prior.

Absolute nonsense.

In any event, it sounds like the poster knows it is real, and rightfully so. He sounds more annoyed that it has gone straight to a police officer, rather than being stopped by a train ticket inspector and given a penalty fare.

In England and Wales, police email addresses should have pnn.police.uk at the end. E.g. [email protected] in any event, if you want to be extra sure.
Why? It happens on the continent and so can happen here. This is a Transport Police matter surely and not the Met Police. You may well be right and it may be routine but how can you say for sure it's utter nonsense? It's not paranoia in any way. Unless there is something else we don't know why would he need to be fingerprinted? I'm sure that isn't normal for not being able to swipe out. I quite agree with him going to the police in order to check if this is bogus or not.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,509
Location
Reading
With the real police, they might given you the option of disposing of the matter quickly and cheaply by accepting a caution.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
13,943
Location
No longer here
Why? It happens on the continent and so can happen here. This is a Transport Police matter surely and not the Met Police. You may well be right and it may be routine but how can you say for sure it's utter nonsense? It's not paranoia in any way. Unless there is something else we don't know why would he need to be fingerprinted? I'm sure that isn't normal for not being able to swipe out. I quite agree with him going to the police in order to check if this is bogus or not.
Yep; this is literally the first time I have heard of someone accused of a RORA offence to be emailed an invitation to a police station to provide fingerprints. This would be a significant departure from how the police usually operate with respect to offences of this kind. Happy for posters to share other occasions if it helps, but my spidey senses tell me something is a bit off.
 

P Binnersley

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2018
Messages
139
If you card worked correctly and opened the gates when you entered the Underground, this will have been caught on CCTV. I would reply to the email giving the named of the station and approximate time and asking them to ensure the CCTV is kept as evidence. This should be done ASAP to ensure the the evidence is overwritten.

As a safeguard you can also issue a subject access request to TfL for the same information.
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
9,867
Location
Redcar
If you card worked correctly and opened the gates when you entered the Underground, this will have been caught on CCTV. I would reply to the email giving the named of the station and approximate time and asking them to ensure the CCTV is kept as evidence. This should be done ASAP to ensure the the evidence is overwritten.

As a safeguard you can also issue a subject access request to TfL for the same information.

Footage is normally only held for 14 days. This incident occured 5 weeks ago.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
Yep; this is literally the first time I have heard of someone accused of a RORA offence to be emailed an invitation to a police station to provide fingerprints. This would be a significant departure from how the police usually operate with respect to offences of this kind. Happy for posters to share other occasions if it helps, but my spidey senses tell me something is a bit off.
The police can enforce it for ANY recordable offence.

In fact, anyone previously convicted of a recordable offence, even by a private prosecutor such as a TOC, can be required to attend a police station to provide fingerprints etc. I suspect the only reason that may not happen routinely is that the police aren't made aware by the TOC, and HMCTS just cover the administration of entering the court result, (which feeds into criminal records etc).

1) They are legally allowed to do so and can, PACE 1984
2) How do you know it doesn't typically happen? I can't see many threads in this forum where the police are dealing with the issue, not the operator.

You should expect this to become even more common as a result of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill 2021.


What are we going to do?
We are going to ensure the police have the necessary powers in place to:

Make it easier for police forces to recall people to take fingerprints, DNA samples and photographs, where this was not done on initial arrest.
Enable the swifter receipt of electronic data, crucial to criminal investigations and prosecutions by making some practical changes in the operating process of the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019 and the Overseas Production Orders mechanism.
Access information relating to the location of human remains outside of criminal proceedings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top