"Fare Evasion"

[Cheka86]

Morning all,

This morning I got on the train at a different stop to my normal one (stayed at a friends house) and was unfamiliar with area. I just about caught the train and no conductor was selling tickets. When i arrived at Manchester Oxford Road i attempted to buy a ticket - i was pulled to the side by an RPO who said i couldn't have purchased a ticket from that station as it was "locked". It was an easy mistake to make as the station i got on at (Humphrey Park) was the one before. The chap took my details and said Northern will be in touch. What sort of action will Northern be likely to take? I have never been in trouble with the law before and it was a genuine mistake. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

 

[Mojo]

So you basically said you got on at a different station from the one you actually got on at?

 

[Cheka86]

Yeah i got on at the one before - they are literally 30 seconds apart. i stayed at a friends and got dropped at the station. The difference in tickets is a nominal amount but the RPO was having none of it. He said i seemed like an honest chap but he had to follow it up.

 

[theblackwatch]

This is what happened in a similar incident at Leeds with Northern a few years ago:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Passenger-innocent-of-10p-fare.1347422.jp

 

[Mojo]

Yes, I always thought that they would take details down in their notebook in case of any prosecution. In which case, you wouldn't sign the notebook if they had some incorrect info in it.

 

[Cheka86]

Was hoping it wouldn't go that far to be honest. Do they usually offer a fine when they send a letter or is it automatically a court summons? If its a fine does anyone know how much it is likely to be?

 

[Mojo]

The only people who can issue a fine are the courts. Penalty Fares don't apply on Northern services.

The most they'd do without going to court is perhaps send you a letter asking to pay the fare, with admin costs. But given you boarded at an unstaffed station then you wouldn't have any admin costs to pay!

 

[Cheka86]

Hmm I guess i will just have to wait and see - i can't be doing with going to court over a small amount when it was a genuine mistake. Has anyone else had any such dealings with Northern?

 

[gordonthemoron]

if it goes to court, you'd be advised to turn up

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You want me to be honest, right?

I am sent the results of a select number of cases that go to court each month by the company, no names or address or anything like that, but it gives an idea of what people COULD face.

Recent "short fares" have had fines of between £115 and £365, court costs of £100 and compensation of anything between 40p and £3, a couple of cases were "discharged". I think the "compensation" is basically the cost of the fare people didn't pay.

I have no idea if you will face this, nor can I influence it in anyway.

 

[1D53]

This could be worth reading, especially as its the same stations involved: http://northernrailways.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3572

 

[Cheka86]

Looks like i am going to get stung one way or another - might be worth me getting a solicitor to look into this when i recieve the letter after all it is a genuine mistake to make surely they can realise that nobody would be tight fisted enough to not to pay an extra 30p on the fare deliberately. When these cases go to court (hairy handed fool) and fines are given out would i also recieve a criminal record. The reason i ask is i am hoping to train to be a solicitor and any conviction like that would ruin any chances i had.

 

[glynn80]

Looks like i am going to get stung one way or another - might be worth me getting a solicitor to look into this when i recieve the letter after all it is a genuine mistake to make surely they can realise that nobody would be tight fisted enough to not to pay an extra 30p on the fare deliberately. When these cases go to court (hairy handed fool) and fines are given out would i also recieve a criminal record. The reason i ask is i am hoping to train to be a solicitor and any conviction like that would ruin any chances i had.

Any fine given in a criminal court would be in relation to a conviction and would lead to a criminal record.

It depends whether Northern Rail takes the incident to be a genuine mistake and therefore the debt would be a civil debt (not pursuable in criminal courts) or if they believed you actually set out to evade the 30p in which case they would take action related to fare evasion (pursuable in a criminal court).

 

[350401]

Hey Cheka86,

Something similar happened to me about 2 months ago. I got cautioned under PACE and details taken by a TPE RPO at Piccadilly when I left the station without a valid ticket, having got on at Chelford and there being no guard on the train (he remained in his cab telling us there was no working machine and to buy at the station) - was a dumb move of mine to then not buy at the station.

I got a letter in the post from the TPE Prosecutions Department a month later, asking me for my version of events and saying that not replying would = a court summons. I called up the department using the supplied number, and afer convincing them that it was a genuine mistake and that I'd never do it again, they let me off with a £31.20 fine (£25 admin charge + £6.20 fare) and a very stiff warning letter to not do it again. When the letter comes, call them up and convince them that it was an honest mistake (which it sounds like). They generally don't want to prosecute as it costs money to go to court, so if they are satisfied that you are not a regular fare-dodger, you'll be (hopefully) let off. If it does go to court, your in all honesty, a bit screwed - its a £120 fine on average *and* the biggie - a criminal record. The event certainly scared the hell out of me and I now have a season ticket, which despite having to pay more than I should (having a YP card and only travelling peak 2x a week), means I don't have to queue. And when I want to use the Chesters to Knutsford rather than go to CEL, the guards generally let me. (Gotta love the Pacers and 156s!!)

This is a good website advising what to do - http://lostlondonlawstudent.blogspot.com/2008/09/dodging-fare-evasion-guide.html - its for TFL but I think the same should apply here.

If they won't let you off with a fine when you call them, get a lawyer, seriously. Unless you confessed in the interview that you had intent to travel without paying, you should have a case that they can help you on. Remember, you have to be proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Good luck

 

[yorkie]

NT will take you to court but, given what you say and what happened previously you'll probably win.

Make sure you get proper legal representation. NT will and will be relying on having better lawyers than you to win.

The law is stacked in their favour sadly. If a mistake was made in almost any other situation it would not be such a big deal. They can even scam us without penalty.

Good luck!

 

[First class]

I would hardly call anything like this a 'scam'.

He provided the details of a 'short' station- now it is irrelevant to a court that he claims to be unfamiliar with the stations, (but yet managed to get there in all probability by train).

Your arguement is that you made a mistake, but because you're not familar with the area, you shouldn't be fined.

Firstly, how does the RPI know you've not actually travelled further than you claim? As soon as you found out the previous station was locked down, you could have just listed the one before that. You will therefore have to prove that this was the station you did actually get on at.

Secondly, with the RPI claiming you are 'honest' suggests to me that you provided him with sufficient evidence to make NT's case stronger. In an attempt to resolve the situation there and then, you've told him as much as possible. If he believed you, he wouldn't be referring you to their prosecutions department. Your words can be used against you. Maybe you contradicted yourself? Maybe one or two things don't add up entirely? In any situation like this, it is better to do the minimum and say 'No Comment' and provide only details of your name/address. Save your defence for court.

 

[devon_metro]

Any fine given in a criminal court would be in relation to a conviction and would lead to a criminal record.

It depends whether Northern Rail takes the incident to be a genuine mistake and therefore the debt would be a civil debt (not pursuable in criminal courts) or if they believed you actually set out to evade the 30p in which case they would take action related to fare evasion (pursuable in a criminal court).

How PETTY can you get???????????

30p????

 

[First class]

Ok, 30p.

Imagine that in one day 100 people at one station sting get away with paying less.

£30 loss. Over a year that amounts up to nearly a £11,000 loss, just from one station, with people shorting a fare by 30p.

 

[Railjet]

I can't believe some of the things I am reading here. If it was a genuine mistake, STAND UP FOR YOURSELF!

England (still!) has a reasonably reliable legal system. Do not be intimidated by threatening letters from the TOC! They know the majority of people will be, and they thrive on it.

Write back saying that it was a genuine mistake, and that you are willing to go to court. Don't lay all of your cards on the table - say that you will explain why in court. Also say that if you receive any more intimidating letters from them, you will produce them as evidence in your defence in court.

Get a friend or relative to help if your writing skills are not up to it. As with most companies, having someone fight back is at least uncomfortable, and more likely expensive, so if they have any sense they will back off.

 

[Mojo]

You will therefore have to prove that this was the station you did actually get on at.

Maybe in some dodgy countries, but for most offences in this country it is the prosecution to prove not the defendant.

You seem to be of the opinion that the customer is wrong. He/she boarded at an unstaffed station and made a mistake. If the station had a PERTIS, self service ticket machine or a staffed ticket office, it may well be the case that the individual in question would have paid.

I don't believe every station in the country should have these facilities, but it is quite clear in my eyes that in deciding not to provide facilities for your customers to pay or at least show intention to pay then you have to accept some slippage.

 

[yorkie]

I would hardly call anything like this a 'scam'.

No, I didn't mean that.

I meant THEY can scam us by charging us, say 30p too much, and that's legal. But if we pay 30p too little we can be given a criminal record!

 

[clagmonster]

The OP states that he was dropped off at the station. Would testimony from the person(s) who dropped him off help in court?
Beyond that, you have given wrong station to the barrier bert, and in doing so you gave the answer a fare dodger would be most likely to give. If you are being honest, it is pure misfortune that you actually got on at the next station down the line, as that is also the answer a fair dodger would be most likely to give, and I am sure the majority of people giving those responses on the days when such checks were taking place, where evading the fare.
I do think it would be a good idea for all well used commuter stations, such as this one to have working an serviced ticket machines or permit to travel machines at the very least. This, and surprise barrier checks, rather than regular ones at main stations in the morning peak, and at the suburban stations in the evening peak, in conjunction with regular on board checking, would result in a far higher rate of fare evaders being prevented in my opinion.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Firstly, how does the RPI know you've not actually travelled further than you claim? As soon as you found out the previous station was locked down, you could have just listed the one before that. You will therefore have to prove that this was the station you did actually get on at....

Maybe in some dodgy countries, but for most offences in this country it is the prosecution to prove not the defendant....

Normally I would say it is the prosecutions job to prove stuff 'beyond a reasonable doubt', but in the instance that the OP claimed to get on at one station and it is clear that they did not, the RPI will make a note of what the OP said and that the RPI told them that they could not have and that they then stated the next station on the line as their origin. Even if the OP is seen as the most honest person on the planet, you can't deny that the average 'dodger' would say exactly the same thing and may seem just as honest in an attempt to evade a fine.

I am no lawyer, but I think that the OP will need to show that there is no 'reasonable doubt' to the claim that it was an honest mistake. The prosecution already have 'evidence' that the OP 'attempted to avoid paying the full fare' (even if it was only by 30p!).

 

[djw1981]

Looks like i am going to get stung one way or another - might be worth me getting a solicitor to look into this when i recieve the letter after all it is a genuine mistake to make surely they can realise that nobody would be tight fisted enough to not to pay an extra 30p on the fare deliberately. When these cases go to court (hairy handed fool) and fines are given out would i also recieve a criminal record. The reason i ask is i am hoping to train to be a solicitor and any conviction like that would ruin any chances i had.

Look at it from their point of view. You have failed to tell the truth - by accident or design. If you deal with fare dodgers all the time you assume everyone to be one I guess.
So from there point of view with that error / non-truth you have discredited the rest of your evidence, and as others have pointed out, given the most likely answer for a fare dodger to give.,

Not very observant for a wannabe lawyer are you?

Also IIRC it is a civil not criminal offence and lots of solicitors have them.

 

[glynn80]

Also IIRC it is a civil not criminal offence and lots of solicitors have them.

As I've said above, it depends.

The FRPP gives the following advice to Revenue Protection staff on this specific issue.

Civil Debt or fare evasion?

It is necessary to understand the difference between a Civil Debt and a matter which may require the remedies of law.

If a passenger owes the fare for a journey and complies with the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (section 5.1) by giving his name and address, then there is no proof of intent to commit an offence. The money owed for the journey made, becomes a Civil Debt.

In this case you should submit a 'Report of Irregular Travelling' (or equivalent Train Company document) to your Revenue Protection Office. It can be followed up by the Train Company writing to the person for the amount due.

However, should this person give a false name and address (either or both) the bill from the Train Company for the fare is not likely to reach the person responsible. Further questions from you and answers from the passengers could be the evidence which proves intent to commit an offence.

It may well be that what started out as a case of civil debt may reveal an offence in the course of questioning. If suspicions are aroused by a person's behaviour and you consider that an offence might have been committed then you should seek the assistance of a Revenue Protection Inspector or the assistance of the British Transport Police.

Fare evasion, or attempted fare evasion, is when you consider that the passenger is making every effort to avoid paying the fare. In this case an authorised person will submit a 'Witness Statement/Statement of Incident' (MG11).

 

[Cheka86]

Look at it from their point of view. You have failed to tell the truth - by accident or design. If you deal with fare dodgers all the time you assume everyone to be one I guess.
So from there point of view with that error / non-truth you have discredited the rest of your evidence, and as others have pointed out, given the most likely answer for a fare dodger to give.,

Not very observant for a wannabe lawyer are you?

Also IIRC it is a civil not criminal offence and lots of solicitors have them.

I think your comments are extremely misjudged you know nothing about me yet you feel that you can insult my intelligence?

If I was a dishonest person I would have given false details but I didn't and if I was deliberately trying to get out of paying the full fair I would surely have said I got on at the stop before my destination (Deansgate G Mex).
Thanks for everyone who has posted by the way some useful information. To clarify my details weren't taken in accordance with PACE and i have signed nothing - not sure if this changes anything though? A week later and this would never have happened I am waiting for my cheque from work for a season ticket!