Fares consultation

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bkhtele

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Done interesting consultation - looks like things are going to get more complex hope they budget for increased staff training and better systems
 

emorris

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I'm glad that they are actually acknowledging that something needs to be done.

Justine Greening said:
The long-standing concerns about complexity in the system must also be
addressed. We believe strongly that buying a rail ticket should be a
straightforward transaction, not an obstacle course
 

All Line Rover

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I'm glad that they are actually acknowledging that something needs to be done.
But how will they do that? Get rid of all ticket types except Anytime?

I fear that any further "simplification" of the ticketing system will only mean that passengers end up paying more.

In my opinion, the only way to simplify the system would be to charge on a "per train" basis. That would get rid of the complexities created by the Routeing Guide and BoJ's. But such a system would have plenty of losers!
 

emorris

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But how will they do that? Get rid of all ticket types except Anytime?

I fear that any further "simplification" of the ticketing system will only mean that passengers end up paying more.
So you think that it should just be left in the mess that it is, with only the few experts having a clue what's going on?
 

ainsworth74

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So you think that it should just be left in the mess that it is, with only the few experts having a clue what's going on?
If this consultation were to lead to higher ticket prices all round in the name of further 'simplification' then yes I think it should be left as it is! I'm all in favour of simplifying the fares system but only if it doesn't disadvantage passengers in other ways, however, I'm not convinced that the DfT can deliver such change.
 

Greenback

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If this consultation were to lead to higher ticket prices all round in the name of further 'simplification' then yes I think it should be left as it is! I'm all in favour of simplifying the fares system but only if it doesn't disadvantage passengers in other ways, however, I'm not convinced that the DfT can deliver such change.
I agree. Based on what has happened previously, I have little doubt that any attempt to amend the current system, however well intentioned, will lead to some, maybe most, passengers paying more than they do now.
 

cjp

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I thought that this might be of interest to those who did not follow the link given on this site to the consultation paper on ticketing.
https://consultation.dft.gov.uk/dft/2012-09/consult_view





This table show why ticket offices are likely to be closed at smaller stations as the value they produce is down to sales rather than to the time spent providing help, advice or re-assurance





The second table surprised me as I thought more use would have been made of the internet but again it deals only with sales and not the cases where research is done on line and the purchase made in the flesh at either a ticket office (wanting confirmation or to pay cash) or at a ticket machine.


I guess what I took away from the paper is that I am not like most when it comes to buying tickets and neither, I guess, will be most people on this web site. A shame as I thought I was normal. How about you??:)
 
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Peter Mugridge

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I find it very interesting that the railcard ticketing figures are pretty much consistent except for the proportion of 16 - 25 ticketing. I hope this doesn't indicate that there is a very high level of fraudulent 16 - 25 ticketing going on with the machines? ( i.e. people using machines to get a discount to which they are not entitled and relying on the low number of ticket checks to get away with it ).
 

Yew

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I find it very interesting that the railcard ticketing figures are pretty much consistent except for the proportion of 16 - 25 ticketing. I hope this doesn't indicate that there is a very high level of fraudulent 16 - 25 ticketing going on with the machines? ( i.e. people using machines to get a discount to which they are not entitled and relying on the low number of ticket checks to get away with it ).
Or maybe it suggests that younger people are more confident with technology but less confident with interpersonal interactions with a ticket office?
 

Peter Mugridge

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Or maybe it suggests that younger people are more confident with technology but less confident with interpersonal interactions with a ticket office?
In which case wouldn't you expect them to have the biggest rather than the smallest internet figure?
 

JohnGeddes

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Two thoughts

Firstly - perhaps young people tend to travel shorter distances and these aren't the sort of journeys that you would bother to book online.

Secondly, are some online ticketing sites still not accepting the sort of debit cards common among younger people?

Realtime credit checking is needed for purchases on no-overdraft cards (and those are the ones that banks issue to under-18's because they are too young to enter into valid credit contracts) - and last time I checked, some online issuers couldn't (or weren't bothered to) do that.

Before we got an automatic ticket machine at Matlock, I remember having to lend my credit card to my then-teenage son as the only way he could collect (from the ticket-machine at Derby) an advance-purchase ticket bought too late for safe postal delivery, despite the fact that he had a Debit Card accepted in virtually every high street store.
 

thedbdiboy

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I started to complete it but got bored halfway through and gave up...

The consultation is pointless. Whatever the outcome, the train operating companies will continue to make fares more complex because it is their interests to confuse the occasional passenger.
The DfT specifies train company franchises and micromanages all sorts of aspects of them. Why do you then conclude that TOCs will continue to 'get away' with things. Most of the confusion arises from a half cocked attempt to allow commercial freedom hemmed in by bureaucratic and outdated rules, so regulated fares are overlaid with commercially-sponsored fares. It is in your interest to engage in and respond to such consultations on the rare occasions you get the chance!
 

Greeby

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That table of ticket sales is a tad skewed by including Oyster/TFL issues, which comprise 28%. Even so, taking it at face value. Why are booking offices under threat when telesales have drop-in-the-ocean sales, yet I never hear about them being for the chop?
 

lyesbkz

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Referring to the Railcard Holder table: I wonder whether I'm interpreting it correctly - when it says "Issued by Internet" does this mean [email protected] / Posted tickets only? After all tickets purchased online for collection are technically issued by the TVM and would fall into that category, no?
 

MikeWh

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Referring to the Railcard Holder table: I wonder whether I'm interpreting it correctly - when it says "Issued by Internet" does this mean [email protected] / Posted tickets only? After all tickets purchased online for collection are technically issued by the TVM and would fall into that category, no?
I wouldn't have thought so, no. The money is taken online whereas a true TVM sale includes taking the money at that point. With TOD you are simply utilising the TVM as a glorified printer.
 

John @ home

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The Department for Transport's consultation on its Rail Fares and Ticketing Review closed on 28 June 2012. The response by RailFareWatch is attached.

RailFareWatch is a voluntary organisation representing the interests of rail passengers. It includes staff and fares advisors from the internet RailUK Forums.

Our response calls for:
  • effective regulation of rail fares, tickets and routeing,
  • extension of impartial retailing rules, and
  • better safeguards for passengers on changes to ticket office opening hours.
Our view is that the key to a fair commuter fares structure is to ensure that there is a small difference in price between one train and the next. We therefore oppose the suggestion in the Rail Value for Money Study that maximum Peak fares may increase by an additional 40% over the course of 5 years.

We welcome the recent announcement by the Office of Rail Regulation of a vision for British railways which puts passengers at the heart of reform, and look forward to working with the regulator to achieve this.
 

Attachments

Indigo2

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Yes indeed, very nice work. Further to point vii) in the answer to question 1.2 about the date of coming into effect of changes to the various documents, I noticed in my recent perusals of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement that it seems to imply (although the wording seems a bit confused) that changes to the Routeing Guide are onlly supposed to come into effect on the same date as a new fares manual, i.e. 3 times a year:
TSA said:
10-6
CHANGING THE PERMITTED ROUTES
(1)
Agreement to make a change
The Routeing Guide may, with the consent of the Authority, be altered from time to time by
a resolution of the Ticketing and Settlement Scheme Council, passed by a 75 per cent.
majority. Before giving his consent, the Authority will consult with any relevant RPC(s).
(2)
Requirement to notify the RSP
(a)
If such a resolution is passed the Operators must ensure that its terms are
notified to the RSP as soon as reasonably practicable after the consent of the
Authority has been obtained, in the format and in accordance with the procedure
specified by the RSP from time to time.
(b)
The alteration will take effect immediately after the first Fares Setting
Round to start after the RSP receives this notification has been completed.

(3)
Publication by the RSP
Following the receipt of the notification referred to in sub-Clause (2) above, the RSP will
amend the Routeing Guide accordingly (or the part of it which is subject to the amendment)
and distribute it in accordance with Clause 4-59 above.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I had to laugh at this:
TSA said:
. . . a resolution of the Ticketing and Settlement Scheme Council, passed by a 75 per cent.
majority
How on earth could any proposer ever achieve a 75% maj.?
They'd have to get members to turn up to attend meeting, surely? That's so unreasonable. I mean, think about it, some of them work on the other side of London! How do you think they'd get there, eh? They've got jobs to do.

Or is it just 75% of those present and voting?
 

johnnycache

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"Or is it just 75% of those present and voting?"

Yes 75% of those present (or with proxy votes). Voting shares determined in proportion to revenue
For instance my employer Southern has 8.29% of the total.
 

Indigo2

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Is the idea behind a deadline so far in the future that they will have most of their plans for smart ticketing etc. already implemented by then? Then they can then tweak the outcome of the consultation to make it appear to endorse everything they have just finished implementing? It's hard not to be cynical.
 
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