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Fares system is impossible for the average person to understand

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Bletchleyite

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Which is my point - the problem isn't the restrictions, it's that *people* don't understand them. Computers do though.

So give the people computers.

But the problem is also end users not understanding them and thus finding it difficult to select the right one. Crikey, I helped someone out at a ticket machine at Bletchley a month or two ago and found it hard to work out what he wanted, and I probably know the fare system better than someone who has just started working in a booking office and hasn't had time to build knowledge.

Yes, they can do that with a journey planner, but for short regional journeys it'd be nice if they didn't have to. For IC, well, isn't that for most people near enough equivalent to just having everyone use Advances?

There is, FWIW, a very interesting proposal in the XC direct award of removing the £10 admin fee for Advance changes, which takes them away from being "book in advance and £10 of woe betide you if you change it" to simply a yield management mechanism and nothing more. There is, with that, no penalty for whacking in an Advance as soon as you think you might travel (thus giving the railway some money up front) then changing it, even more than once, when your plans solidify. I thought it was silly originally, but if combined with proper e-ticketing (e.g. the ability to change it while waiting at the station when you change your mind last minute) it might well be a very useful experiment.
 
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infobleep

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But the problem is also end users not understanding them and thus finding it difficult to select the right one. Crikey, I helped someone out at a ticket machine at Bletchley a month or two ago and found it hard to work out what he wanted, and I probably know the fare system better than someone who has just started working in a booking office and hasn't had time to build knowledge.

Yes, they can do that with a journey planner, but for short regional journeys it'd be nice if they didn't have to. For IC, well, isn't that for most people near enough equivalent to just having everyone use Advances?

There is, FWIW, a very interesting proposal in the XC direct award of removing the £10 admin fee for Advance changes, which takes them away from being "book in advance and £10 of woe betide you if you change it" to simply a yield management mechanism and nothing more. There is, with that, no penalty for whacking in an Advance as soon as you think you might travel (thus giving the railway some money up front) then changing it, even more than once, when your plans solidify. I thought it was silly originally, but if combined with proper e-ticketing (e.g. the ability to change it while waiting at the station when you change your mind last minute) it might well be a very useful experiment.
I wonder what XC higher up people think of the idea?

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najaB

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Yes, they can do that with a journey planner, but for short regional journeys it'd be nice if they didn't have to.
Exactly. You should be able to go to a TVM, enter your start and end stations, departure time and choose 'Cheapest' or 'Flexible' and let the machine work it out. Then the rules can be as complex as you want and the computers will figure it out.

If, as you claim, BoJ is a niche requirement then that should be the problem sorted.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's exactly how DB do it. Priced options in a journey planner on TVMs. They have done it for years, and combining that with single fare pricing and consistent BoJ rules would sort the vast majority of it out.


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infobleep

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Well, with their severe overcrowding and no new rolling stock in sight barring the two spare Voyager cab vehicles, they have more need for yield management than most.
But won't they lose money from the administration fees? I thought they liked to make as much money as possible or am I being to cynical here?

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ainsworth74

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But won't they lose money from the administration fees? I thought they liked to make as much money as possible or am I being to cynical here?

Surely that depends on who the admin fee goes to? XC don't run any booking offices so does the fee go to the booking office or the TOC whose AP is being amended? If it goes to the booking office then this doesn't change anything financially for them.
 

Bletchleyite

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But won't they lose money from the administration fees? I thought they liked to make as much money as possible or am I being to cynical here?

They can always claw it back by bumping up the fares a little.

The point is it completely changes the use-case for Advance fares by there being no penalty (other than the fares difference) for changing them.
 

ainsworth74

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The point is it completely changes the use-case for Advance fares by there being no penalty (other than the fares difference) for changing them.

Indeed as long as you know you are going to travel on that day you might as well book a train on that date and then adjust accordingly once you have a better idea.
 

Merseysider

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They can always claw it back by bumping up the fares a little.

The point is it completely changes the use-case for Advance fares by there being no penalty (other than the fares difference) for changing them.
You have got to be trolling? You cannot be serious.
 

infobleep

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Surely that depends on who the admin fee goes to? XC don't run any booking offices so does the fee go to the booking office or the TOC whose AP is being amended? If it goes to the booking office then this doesn't change anything financially for them.
I forgot that. So I wonder if the other TOCs are happy if they are the ones having to forfeit their admin takings for XC services? I don't know if they get to keep the fee.

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KTHV

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Can anyone please tell me what the complete obsession with Germany is for some contributors on here?
 

Bletchleyite

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You have got to be trolling? You cannot be serious.

In what way is this not the case? It's easy to do a sly increase by playing with Advance quotas to make the change revenue neutral.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can anyone please tell me what the complete obsession with Germany is for some contributors on here?

Germany's railway system is the most similar one to ours in Europe in scope, usage and operating practices (the exception being that the Dutch system is very similar to the South East commuter operation). Naturally, that makes their fare system also not all that much different, and thus a source of good examples.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed as long as you know you are going to travel on that day you might as well book a train on that date and then adjust accordingly once you have a better idea.

Exactly. And if you find the one you picked did suit, stick to it. And if you want a walk-up, fine, pay the difference.

It's all very customer-friendly indeed. But it does totally change the business model of Advance fares - certainly it would make me much more likely to use them. Perhaps that is the desired effect, as they provide much more granular yield management than walk-ups of any kind.
 
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Dave1987

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Interesting experience at Wolverhampton. Just one window open at the booking office with two people trying to encourage the vast queue of people to use the ticket machines. Two people had to be sent back around to the main ticket office because the whatever ticket they were trying to buy on the ticket machines went wrong and had to be rectified at the main ticket office! Would have been far quicker had those people just opened two more windows and served people. Because I was buying a Priv I have to buy one from the ticket office. Lots of people saying that they won't be using a ticket machine again. Clearly either the ticketing system needs simplifying or there needs to be more staff at ticket offices to help people understand it. I'm very very glad I don't have to understand it, and feel those that do have to learn it are very under valued by TOC's.
 
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