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Farnborough to Cuxton - Routeing Guide Query

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Bill Badger

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I'm trying to work out the permitted route(s) from Farnborough to Cuxton.

Farnborough is a Routeing Point

Cuxton has Maidstone and Chatham as Routing Points.

Comparing fares i find the following:

Farnborough – Cuxton
Anytime £24.90
off peak £23.50

Farnborough – Chatham
Anytime £26.20
off peak £24.60

Farnborough – Maidstone
Anytime £26.20
off peak £25.20

So to see which routeing points are valid I need to check fares, however this is where I'm not sure what to do as Cuxton has a lower fare in all instances than either Maidstone or Chatham. The Routing Guide appears to try to address this problem as follows

Routeing Guide said:
In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes.

But that doesn't really make sense as I can't use these fares as they are higher!

Any advise gratefully received!

Cheers,

Kevin
 
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glynn80

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Not all flows have mapped permitted routes.

In this circumstance it seems that only the shortest route and any routes that are no more than three miles longer than the shortest route are valid.

The shortest route is:

From Farnborough Main to Brookwood, to Woking, to Byfleet & New Haw, to Weybridge, to Surbiton, to New Malden, to Raynes Park, to Wimbledon, to Streatham, to Tulse Hill, to Peckham Rye, to Nunhead, to Lewisham, to Blackheath, to Barnehurst via Bexleyheath, to Dartford, to Strood (Kent), to Cuxton.

And the only other route I can find that is not over three miles longer than the route above is:

From Farnborough Main to Brookwood, to Woking, to Byfleet & New Haw, to Weybridge, to Surbiton, to New Malden, to Raynes Park, to Wimbledon, to Clapham Junction, to Balham, to Streatham Hill, to West Norwood, to Crystal Palace, to Beckenham Junction, to Shortlands, to Bromley South, to Bickley, to St Mary Cray, to Swanley, to Rochester, to Strood (Kent), to Cuxton.
 

John @ home

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I'm not sure what to do as Cuxton has a lower fare in all instances than either Maidstone or Chatham.
This is another example of the difficulties caused by Routeing Point Groups where different fares apply for different members of the Routeing Point Group. We debated the issue in this thread.

For Farnborough - Cuxton, my calculations are:

Both Farnborough stations are members of Farnborough Group, which comprises Blackwater (BAW), Farnborough Main (FNB) and Farnborough North (FNN).
The Routeing Points for Cuxton are Chatham Group and Maidstone Group. Chatham Group comprises Chatham (CTM), Gillingham Kent (GLM), Rochester (RTR) and Strood Kent (SOO). Maidstone Group comprises Maidstone Barracks (MDB), Maidstone East (MDE) and Maidstone West (MDW). [1]

For the Fares Check, Standard Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares are:
BAW or FNB or FNN - CUX SDS route LONDON NOT UND £24.90.
BAW or FNB or FNN - SOO SDS route LONDON NOT UND £24.90.
BAW or FNB or FNN - CTM or GLM or RTR SDS route + ANY PERMITTED £26.20.
BAW or FNB or FNN - MDB or MDE or MDW SDS route + ANY PERMITTED £26.20.

Farnborough - Strood Kent passes the Fares Check, so Chatham Group is an appropriate Routeing Point for a Farnborough - Cuxton journey.
The Fares Check is not passed for a journey between any station in Farnborough Group and any station in Maidstone Group, so Maidstone Group is not an appropriate Routeing Point for a Farnborough - Cuxton journey.

Permitted routes between Farnborough Group and Chatham Group are: LONDON.
Permitted routes between Farnborough Group and London Group are: CS+WR or WX.
Permitted routes between London Group and Chatham Group are: HK HS LD LR LR+SL NK or VC.

Therefore a permitted route from either Farnborough station to Cuxton is
  • By any mapped route from either Farnborough station to any London Group station using maps CS+WR or WX
  • then by any mapped route from any London Group station to any Chatham Group station using maps HK HS LD LR LR+SL NK or VC
  • then by the shortest route from any Chatham Group station to Cuxton.
Due to the routeing LONDON NOT UND, if different members of London Group are chosen for arrival and departure the passenger must make their way at their own expense between these two stations.

In this circumstance it seems that only the shortest route and any routes that are no more than three miles longer than the shortest route are valid.
This approach does not work in this case. The two routes found (via Tulse Hill or via Crystal Palace) both avoid London. But all fares from Farnborough Group stations (BAW or FNB or FNN) to Cuxton are route LONDON NOT UND.

In my opinion this means that, had there been no mapped routes between any Farnborough Group station and Cuxton, the permitted routes would have been
  • the shortest permitted route between the passenger's choice of any Farnborough Group station and the passenger's choice of any London Group station which can be reached by following a permitted route, followed by
  • the shortest permitted route between the passenger's choice of any London Group station with a permitted route avoiding Farringdon to Cuxton, and Cuxton
or any route not more than 3 miles longer than a shortest route above.

[1] The Routeing Point Groups I have used are from the list which appeared on the ATOC web site from 16 October 2009 to 29 November 2009. On 30 November 2009 that was replaced with a nonsense list which famously defines Aberdeen as comprising Dundee, Middlesbrough Group and Inverness. It remains on the ATOC site today. In the 30 November list, Chatham Group comprises Dartford, Ebbsfleet International, Faversham, Maidstone Group, Gravesend and Swanley. Maidstone Group comprises Ashford International, Chatham Group, Swanley and Tonbridge.
 

Bill Badger

Member
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284
Thanks both for your comprehensive and clear answers; I hadn't thought of checking the fares of each station in the routeing group individually, but can see why it makes sense.

One other question, am I allowed to travel via Chatham or do I have to change at Rochester? (assuming I travel via Swanley from London) Looking at Map NK it suggests Chatham to Maidstone is OK, but it appears to require doubling back between Rochester & Chatham and there doesn't seem to be an easement.

Also is there any logic why a ticket to Stood or Cuxton, doesn't include Underground, but Chatham & Maidstone do? It seems to me the route is going to pretty similar whichever you are traveling to.

Finally just out of interest, as I'm not planning to go that way, if I made my own way across London to St Pancras, would I be allowed to use HS1?
 

John @ home

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am I allowed to travel via Chatham or do I have to change at Rochester? (assuming I travel via Swanley from London) Looking at Map NK it suggests Chatham to Maidstone is OK, but it appears to require doubling back between Rochester & Chatham and there doesn't seem to be an easement.
Yes, doubling back between Chatham and Rochester is allowed because both are members of Chatham Group.
How to use the National Routeing Guide
GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/instructions.pdf
is there any logic why a ticket to Stood or Cuxton, doesn't include Underground, but Chatham & Maidstone do? It seems to me the route is going to pretty similar whichever you are traveling to.
The search for logic is a frustrating and elusive quest in British railway fares and routeing. I don't know if there's any logic in this instance. As a guess, it may have something to do with an assumed primary London terminal at the time free cross-London tube travel started. If the leg to London and the leg from London had the same assumed primary terminal then cross-London travel was not included; if not, it was.
if I made my own way across London to St Pancras, would I be allowed to use HS1?
My opinion is yes. My reasons are:
  • the ticket is routed via London
  • map HS is a permitted route between London Group and Chatham Group
  • map HS allows St Pancras - Stratford London - Ebbsfleet International - Gravesend - Chatham
  • the words "Not HS1" or "Not valid via HS1" are not printed on the ticket
  • Para 13(d) of the National Conditions of Carriage states: The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take: (i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or (ii) the most direct route. These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
 

Bill Badger

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284
Thanks John; one further question!

Yes, doubling back between Chatham and Rochester is allowed because both are members of Chatham Group.


How to use the National Routeing Guide said:
GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

My emphasis - but Cuxton is part of the Chatham Group and is my destination, therefore isn't the Guidance saying I can't double back?
 

glynn80

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Thanks John; one further question!

My emphasis - but Cuxton is part of the Chatham Group and is my destination, therefore isn't the Guidance saying I can't double back?

Cuxton is what's known in the routeing guide as a "related station". It is not a routeing point in its own right or a member of a routeing point group, it is merely "associated" with the Maidstone and Chatham groups.

The only members of the Chatham group are Chatham, Gillingham Kent, Rochester and Strood Kent.
 

Bill Badger

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Messages
284
Cuxton is what's known in the routeing guide as a "related station". It is not a routeing point in its own right or a member of a routeing point group, it is merely "associated" with the Maidstone and Chatham groups.

The only members of the Chatham group are Chatham, Gillingham Kent, Rochester and Strood Kent.

Ah I see; thanks.

So with a ticket to Cuxton I can travel via Chatham, but if I had a ticket for Strood I couldn't - even though I have to go through Strood to get to Cuxton!!
 

John @ home

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but Cuxton is part of the Chatham Group and is my destination, therefore isn't the Guidance saying I can't double back?
No. The members of a Routeing Point Group are those stations defined to be so in the National Routeing Guide. Unfortunately, the relevant list is spouting nonsense at present. The most up-to-date sensible list in the public domain is attached. It appeared on the ATOC web site from 16 October 2009 to 29 November 2009. It shows that Chatham Routeing Point Group comprises Chatham (CTM), Gillingham Kent (GLM), Rochester (RTR) and Strood Kent (SOO).

Cuxton is not a Routeing Point, nor a member of a Routeing Point Group. It is associated with two Routing Points - Chatham Group and Maidstone Group. For a particular journey to or from Cuxton, either or both of these Routeing Points may be appropriate depending on the Fares Check.

It permitted to double back between Rochester and Chatham with a Farnborough Stations - Cuxton route London Not Und ticket because Rochester and Chatham are members of Chatham Routeing Point Group, and neither the origin nor the destination printed on the ticket are members of that Group.

Note that it is not permitted to double back between Rochester and Chatham with a Farnborough Stations - Strood Kent route London Not Und ticket, despite the price and routeing being identical. This is because Strood Kent is a member of Chatham Routeing Point Group.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So with a ticket to Cuxton I can travel via Chatham, but if I had a ticket for Strood I couldn't - even though I have to go through Strood to get to Cuxton!!
Precisely!!
 

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