Fat Cat Comedians

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Butts

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So it seems as well as bashing Bankers Jimmy Carr has been paying even lower rates of tax himself :oops:

I bet he's not the only one.

It never fails to amaze me how entertainers and sportsmen can earn such huge amounts of money without any criticism or closer inspection of their tax affairs.

When Ed Milliband said it was a Budget for Millionaires perhaps he should have added "Premiership Footballers" however that would not have been quite so populist in it's appeal however true.:p
 
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Badger

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I don't understand this.

If it's a loophole then it's legal and therefore should be dealt with by the taxman but no need to slur somebody's name (because they haven't broken the law).

If it's illegal then the person should be dealt with.

I don't understand how there is this weird grey area for celebrities. They either broke the law or they didn't, and if they didn't, it's a non-story.
 

4SRKT

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I don't understand this.

If it's a loophole then it's legal and therefore should be dealt with by the taxman but no need to slur somebody's name (because they haven't broken the law).

If it's illegal then the person should be dealt with.

I don't understand how there is this weird grey area for celebrities. They either broke the law or they didn't, and if they didn't, it's a non-story.

If they didn't it's not a 'non-story'. It may not be a story about the celebrity (although being completely amoral may be regarded as just as questionably as behaving illegally by some), but it is certainly a story about the ludicrous nature of the tax system.
 

Butts

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I don't understand this.

If it's a loophole then it's legal and therefore should be dealt with by the taxman but no need to slur somebody's name (because they haven't broken the law).

If it's illegal then the person should be dealt with.

I don't understand how there is this weird grey area for celebrities. They either broke the law or they didn't, and if they didn't, it's a non-story.

Cast your mind back to John Majors "back to basics" morality campaign - whilst endorsing family values he was banging Edwina Currie.

Mr Carr cracks jokes about wealthy people avoiding taxes through various loopholes but forgets to mention he is doing exactly the same thing himself.

A case of Black Pot and Kettle springs to mind :lol:

I can't resist a footnote - Edwina Currie was quite attractive in her day in a Nigella Lawson type way !!!
 

WelshBluebird

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The problem with such loopholes isn't specifically that they exist, but that often they are only available to be exploited by people who can afford to pay accountants and stuff to work around the rules for them. As such, the loopholes are out of the reach of most people.
 

Butts

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The problem with such loopholes isn't specifically that they exist, but that often they are only available to be exploited by people who can afford to pay accountants and stuff to work around the rules for them. As such, the loopholes are out of the reach of most people.

What about the young Edwina Currie ?
 

Tracky

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Comes down to the individual asking him or herself questions.

Is it legal?

Is it ethical and moral?

The first is up to HMRC, but in most cases it is legal tax avoidance. The second is up to the individual to justify to himself. I personally feel that anybody who is elected by the public into his position, an MP for instance, should go on the side of caution for the second and be whiter than white but other than that group - who are we to judge.
 
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SS4

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Comes down to the individual asking him or herself questions.

Is it legal?

Is it ethical and moral?

The first is up to HMRC, but in most cases it is legal tax avoision. The second is up to the individual to justify to himself. I personally feel that anybody who is elected by the public into his position, an MP for instance, should go on the side of caution for the second and be whiter than white but other than that group - who are we to judge.

Is that a portmanteau of evasion and avoidance :lol:

I agree with what you said though. A person has the right to use his money in any legal way although I for one would like to see some legal methods outlawed.
 
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Carr is just a true to type sort of socialist. The sort that decry the House of Lords but can't wait to get the Ermine coat on. The sort who take the p155 out of rich people who themselves live the champagne lifestyle in Islington. The sort who send their children to a private school. The sort who bang on about global warming whilst traveling everywhere in a Range-Rover.
Moral hypocrites the lot of 'em.
 

EM2

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When the Prime Minister, whose family made their fortune from using offshore tax havens: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens, calls a comedian who uses a tax avoidance scheme as 'morally wrong', yet says nothing about Vodafone, Google, Amazon etc. and their failure to pay any tax, then you know that everyone is just as bad as each other.
 

142094

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When the Prime Minister, whose family made their fortune from using offshore tax havens: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens, calls a comedian who uses a tax avoidance scheme as 'morally wrong', yet says nothing about Vodafone, Google, Amazon etc. and their failure to pay any tax, then you know that everyone is just as bad as each other.

Can't remember who said it but it was suggested some time ago that if HMRC actually collected all the tax owed to it by specific big companies, then there would be no reason for the current austerity measures.
 

tbtc

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Carr is just a true to type sort of socialist

Socialist?

I've heard him called many things, but never that!

Can't remember who said it but it was suggested some time ago that if HMRC actually collected all the tax owed to it by specific big companies, then there would be no reason for the current austerity measures.

This is true. Rather than putting taxes up (on pasties, static caravans, whatever) they could just collect the actual tax due by big business (Amazon, Vodafone etc) and HMRC would have a lot more money.

TBH I could support a cut on the 50% rate of tax to 45% if it meant that those earning over the requisite amount actually paid their taxes in full - why should I pay more tax than a millionaire does?
 

90019

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This is true. Rather than putting taxes up (on pasties, static caravans, whatever) they could just collect the actual tax due by big business (Amazon, Vodafone etc) and HMRC would have a lot more money.

The problem there is that, if you do try and collect all of the tax owed by large companies, they'll just up sticks and bugger off to a country where they'll pay less tax.
 

EM2

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Can't remember who said it but it was suggested some time ago that if HMRC actually collected all the tax owed to it by specific big companies, then there would be no reason for the current austerity measures.
It's exactly right.
Vodafone paid no UK Corporation Tax last year (down from £140m the year before) and were 'let off' a substantial sum in 2010 when Osborne accepted a payment of £1.25bn, against a bill widely reported of £6bn. Amazon have paid no Corporation Tax on the £7.6bn of sales they've made in Britain in the last three years. Google channel revenues through Ireland, and so pay £600k in Corporation Tax on revenues of approx. £1.25bn.
And if anyone thinks this is Socialist lefty ranting, have a read of the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2125883/Amazon-Google-sordid-reality-tax-avoidance.html
and the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...x-trap-closing-on-Amazon-eBay-and-Google.html
 

Oswyntail

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There is a difference between what is legal and what is moral. That is a very old-fashioned view, I know.
Where the scheme used by Carr falls down, IMHO, is that he and the offshore company have to pretend that the loan is to be repaid. Pretending is a form of lying, and if you have to lie in your tax affairs then you are cheating the government, and us.
 

tbtc

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The problem there is that, if you do try and collect all of the tax owed by large companies, they'll just up sticks and bugger off to a country where they'll pay less tax.

This is one reason I'm in favour of Europe and some common taxation to stop big companies shopping around for the lowest tax.

Your HQ might be anywhere in the world, but if you make millions from sales in the UK then you should pay the tax on those sales (rather than being allowed to move them offshore).

Clamping down on the Channel Islands would be a good start.
 

4SRKT

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but other than that group - who are we to judge.

We who are judging are people who are paying more tax than we otherwise would have to because of amoral scumbags like Carr and many others? If we don't judge on such bases then morality ceases to have any meaning. Do you feel the same way about so called 'benefit fraud'? After all, who are we to judge?
 

tbtc

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This is what I find so interesting about the current news - its The Times and the Conservative Party sounding "shocked" about tax avoiding/ evasion/ loopholes - you might expect the Labour Party and the Guardian/ Mirror to rant about this, but when even those on the right are arguing about it it must be significant.
 

WestCoast

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Dubious corporate tax arrangements are widespread across the world, to improve the situation there would have to be new levels of co-operation and standardisation at EU/EEC level and potentially with other areas of the world too.

It's been going on for years in transport industries as well, an example being the 'flags of convenience' like Cyprus or Liberia in shipping. Aircraft registered in the Isle of Man (which have never been near the place) and so on.
 

GB

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Don't see the problem here. If I was in a position to be ale to legally pay less tax I'd do it in a heart beat... much like the majority of complainers would do I'm sure.
 

swj99

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It's just another case of 'this week's pit bulls'. The Greeks have had their turn, next week it will be doctors, or Argentinians again, or single mothers, or new age travellers, or even pit bulls if the gutter press filth can't think of a better news story to make up.
 

Clip

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Don't see the problem here. If I was in a position to be ale to legally pay less tax I'd do it in a heart beat... much like the majority of complainers would do I'm sure.

Too right I would.

I think the main issue is about Carr going for corporations and other people for doing this whilst he was on the awful 10 oclock show and then doing the same.
 

EM2

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Don't see the problem here. If I was in a position to be ale to legally pay less tax I'd do it in a heart beat... much like the majority of complainers would do I'm sure.

My problem is Cameron coming out to say it's morally wrong, yet not doing so for Sir Phillip Green and numerous other Conservative supporters.
 
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