• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Fat Cat Comedians

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
My problem is Cameron coming out to say it's morally wrong, yet not doing so for Sir Phillip Green and numerous other Conservative supporters.
And Milliband giggling and saying nothing?
It is certainly now a political problem for the Conservatives, and their hand has been somewhat forced by the Times reports. But they had said they were working on how to clamp down on schemes like K2, and getting it right rather than rushing knee-jerk legislation (ala New Labour) is IMHO the better approach.
And, slightly off topic (though attempted as a "smoke screen" by Carr), are the revelations a good thing because they attack greedy rich people, or bad things because they come from Murdoch?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
696
Avoision is a real word. Sort of. It was used by certain American loophole-exploiting accountants in the 1970s when they were told off for promoting tax evasion.

That should tell you that it's not a real word. From the country that gave us "signage" substituting it for the correct "signing".
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,116
Location
UK
My problem is Cameron coming out to say it's morally wrong, yet not doing so for Sir Phillip Green and numerous other Conservative supporters.

It's tough because if something isn't made illegal, you can't really expect people not to do it.

Look at how many things businesses do that you could consider morally wrong. The thing is, if you worked for that company or had shares in it, you'd turn a blind eye.

If you could avoid tax yourself, legally, you'd almost certainly do it.

The moral radar only really counts for other people. Plus, the Government is probably not too dissimilar to the railway. People feel it's okay to rip it off as there's no obvious victim.. or it's a way to punish greedy fat cats and hypocritical politicians.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Can someone explain how a comedian using a (legal) loophole to save a load of money is different from an MP having a second home further away from London than her main residence (simply because her boyfriend works in Southampton) or MPs "flipping" their 2 residences to claim more in expenses?

He found a loophole and used it, and?

Must be a quiet news day.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Can someone explain how a comedian using a (legal) loophole to save a load of money is different from an MP having a second home further away from London than her main residence (simply because her boyfriend works in Southampton) or MPs "flipping" their 2 residences to claim more in expenses?

He found a loophole and used it, and?

Must be a quiet news day.

The "comedian" isn't using taxpayer's money to fund it.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
It's funny to see Miliband squirm on this one because he knows full well that it's not just Tory donors who use dubious tax avoidance schemes. Instead, he chose to gibber about it not being a Politician's place to lecture about morals, when I'm sure I've heard Labour Politicians including him talk about morals previously!!! Yet more evidence of how much of a waste of space the man really is:(

As for Carr, he's now owned up to having made an error of judgement. Too right you have matey. Sure, we'd all like to pay less tax, but then we don't say that when we need the Old Bill, or the NHS or the Fire Service or...........!

Still, where Miliband is spot on is that where he says that it's the Government's job to legislate on this. Well, tax avoidance was rife during the last Government's time but I didn't hear him or his mate Balls talking about it then.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,345
Location
Stirlingshire
It's funny to see Miliband squirm on this one because he knows full well that it's not just Tory donors who use dubious tax avoidance schemes. Instead, he chose to gibber about it not being a Politician's place to lecture about morals, when I'm sure I've heard Labour Politicians including him talk about morals previously!!! Yet more evidence of how much of a waste of space the man really is:(

As for Carr, he's now owned up to having made an error of judgement. Too right you have matey. Sure, we'd all like to pay less tax, but then we don't say that when we need the Old Bill, or the NHS or the Fire Service or...........!

Still, where Miliband is spot on is that where he says that it's the Government's job to legislate on this. Well, tax avoidance was rife during the last Government's time but I didn't hear him or his mate Balls talking about it then.

Were they not saying it was morally wrong for Steven Hester the RBS Boss to take the bonus he was entitled to :p
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
yet again we see the hypocrisy of David "Cameron", trying to make out that he represents the Indignant voice of the People voicing their anger that these Highly Paid Showbiz Celebrities are didging their social obligation, when we all know that he's really just angry that someone has found a loophole to dodge mr. Cameron's extortion.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,116
Location
UK
I am sure we'll find out that Ed Miliband or Ed Balls is either doing the same, or is close to people doing the same. I really don't think the problem is limited to any one party.

As we've acknowledged here, if you can legally avoid paying more tax than you need to then you probably will. You might worry about the moral aspect, which is why you'll then try and keep things quiet.

Perhaps people doing it should just be more honest and say 'Yes, I avoid tax if I can. If you don't like it, make it illegal! Now sod off and worry about your own life'.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Were they not saying it was morally wrong for Steven Hester the RBS Boss to take the bonus he was entitled to :p

Yes, and I'm sure there have been other occasions. Gordon Brown's 'moral compass' for a start. I'm not overly satisfied with Cameron but give me him over that cretin Miliband any day of the week.

 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,345
Location
Stirlingshire
yet again we see the hypocrisy of David "Cameron", trying to make out that he represents the Indignant voice of the People voicing their anger that these Highly Paid Showbiz Celebrities are didging their social obligation, when we all know that he's really just angry that someone has found a loophole to dodge mr. Cameron's extortion.

Well he is a politician - what do you expect honesty and transparency ?

Regardless of Party they are all cut from the same hew - That of Bull**** :roll:
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
.... when we all know that he's really just angry that someone has found a loophole to dodge mr. Cameron's extortion.

Hang on, he'd be paying more with Brown's 50% tax rate (if he wasn't using K2)!

 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Rich people having been avoiding tax by using legal loopholes for years. Cameron's fake outrage hasn't convinced me one bit.

And I don't think it was fair to single out one individual. I am no great fan of Jimmy Carr, but he is only one amongst many, and I would be surprised if any of the peopel taking advantages of these loopholes are actually aware of the details. I imagine most of them leave all that to their accountants and financial advisers.
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
....And I don't think it was fair to single out one individual. I am no great fan of Jimmy Carr, but he is only one amongst many.....
But how many of those have made a small part of their living out of criticising tax avoiders?
A thought on the moral issue struck me. Many, here and elsewhere, have said effectively that morality is irrelevant - anyone would take the chance to pay less tax than they have to. What about the morality of "earning" more money than they need (or, more subjectively, deserve). If we can criticise the morality of the pay of bankers' bosses, where do we draw the line lower down the scale? Is Carr paid way too much for little else than padding out the C4 schedules?
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,116
Location
UK
The problem is, if you simply up income tax to 50, 60, 70% or whatever - companies will have to pay staff more money to compensate.

Some people earn more than others. It always will be that way.

If you lowered income tax, would more people pay it, or would they still try and pay even less? I'm sure you would find that some would, some wouldn't.

It's certainly not clear cut - and if it costs loads to manage an extra tax band, for little gain, I can see why the Government sought to get rid of it. But, while that might make sense - I have absolutely no bloody idea why HMRC was ever speaking to corporate companies to negotiate how much tax they should pay! They should pay what they owe, based on their accounts.

I'm obviously being rather naive here!!
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
But how many of those have made a small part of their living out of criticising tax avoiders?

Fair point, but until this story broke I had no idea Carr had made fun of such people, probably because I am not a fan of his!

A thought on the moral issue struck me. Many, here and elsewhere, have said effectively that morality is irrelevant - anyone would take the chance to pay less tax than they have to. What about the morality of "earning" more money than they need (or, more subjectively, deserve). If we can criticise the morality of the pay of bankers' bosses, where do we draw the line lower down the scale? Is Carr paid way too much for little else than padding out the C4 schedules?

Where do we draw the line at anything? That's th eproblem of living in a capitlaist society, when we seek to define success or worth by monetary measures, how do we know what is truly valuable?

Is Mario Balotelli worth whatever he gets paid? Is Kate Winslet value for money? What about Sophie Raworth or Will.I.Am? (I just picked these names out of thin air).

As a friend of mine is fond of saying, it isn't what you do, or how much you earn, but what sort of a person you are that really matters!
 

swj99

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
765
When something like this hits the headlines, I always wonder what other potentially controversial event has recently happened which will now conveniently not end up on the front page.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top