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Fatal bus crash sparks calls for tougher laws on driving PCVs

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Robertj21a

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I agree that some operators seem to be able to get away with paying very poor hourly rates but then even larger operators paying £11-12ph are still finding it difficult to recruit. It's often the need for shift working that causes major issues.
 
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Teflon Lettuce

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That is true, however comes a point were passenger safety is compromised by overworking drivers.

Not helped either by drivers, driving some long routes which companies have split in order to get around the EU regulations, the bus involves was on X18 Coventry-Evesham which single journey takes over 2 hours 30 minutes, not sure if there's a mandatory driver change at Stratford on every journey, but if there isn't, with layover time can be over 5 & a half hour shift on that route alone.
even worse is the "accumulated driving" rule which means, on British hrs, a driver can drive for 8.5 hrs without a proper break as long as there are accumulated breaks of 45 mins within the driving time... so you could be on a route that takes 90 mins for a round trip and then get a 10 minute stand time.. and you could do 5 rounders without a break meaning a total time "in the cab" of 8hrs 20 mins!.. perfectly legal!
 

Teflon Lettuce

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I agree that some operators seem to be able to get away with paying very poor hourly rates but then even larger operators paying £11-12ph are still finding it difficult to recruit. It's often the need for shift working that causes major issues.
but those operators who are paying £11-12ph tend to be those in areas where the cost of living is high... £480 per week for a 40hr week is hardly a good wage in London is it?

I once did a rough calculation that if after deregulation/ privatisation wages had kept up with inflation then the current hrly rate would be in the range £16-25/hr rather than the current NMW- £12/13ph
 

Statto

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I agree that some operators seem to be able to get away with paying very poor hourly rates but then even larger operators paying £11-12ph are still finding it difficult to recruit. It's often the need for shift working that causes major issues.

Yep plus that you'll be working weekends, although you'll have a couple of days off in the week to compensate, if you're not asked to do overtime, think most companies shift is 4 days on 2 off, especially in a PTE or big town/city area, shifts can start anytime from 4am & finish midnight-1am.
 

edwin_m

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In which case surely the conversation about hours is a bit of a red herring?

I have had very close first hand experience with dementia (me and my parents cared for my Gran until she passed away) and the idea of someone with the condition where it had progressed so far (for it to be a reason to avoid an open court trial means it must be pretty bad) being legally able to drive a public bus full of passengers is utterly terrifying.

From reading the details it looks like he wasn't diagnosed until after the crash, but surely there needs to be some kind of regular testing / audit to make sure drivers are still fit to drive? I would suggest that should be case for all bus drivers too not just those who are at risk from things like dementia etc.

Edit - 4 crashes in 3 years - how the hell was he still driving!!??
According to the BBC the crash in question was in October 2015 and the trial of facts ended just now. The dementia could have developed quite a lot in nearly two years.

This is a situation where reputable operators are moreorless obliged to cut corners to avoid being undercut by less reputable ones. Enforcing tougher restrictions on working hours would remove this competition threat although fares or subisidies would have to rise to pay for it.
 

Statto

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even worse is the "accumulated driving" rule which means, on British hrs, a driver can drive for 8.5 hrs without a proper break as long as there are accumulated breaks of 45 mins within the driving time... so you could be on a route that takes 90 mins for a round trip and then get a 10 minute stand time.. and you could do 5 rounders without a break meaning a total time "in the cab" of 8hrs 20 mins!.. perfectly legal!

Yep, one of my local routes timed to take a round trip of around 2 hours 20, with a break at one end of 5 minutes & 7 minutes the other end, buses can be 10-20 late especially in the peaks & even occasionally later so driver doesn't get a break on their shift.
 

richw

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My employer doesn’t allow us to work the extremes this man was allowed to do. They also enforce a calendar day off every 14th day, and not just the 24 hour rule- I.e can’t finish at 1500 on day 13 and start at 1501 on day 14.

I'm aware that the 48-hour limit imposed by the Working Time Directive doesn't apply to certain professions, but I had absolutely no idea that bus drivers were allowed to work anywhere near that.

I’ve signed a WTD opt out with my last 3 employers (1 office, 1 van driving, current bus driving)
 

TheWalrus

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I think we should get a legal minimum break of 40-45 minutes for over 5.5 hours driving - 30 minutes is not enough.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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I think we should get a legal minimum break of 40-45 minutes for over 5.5 hours driving - 30 minutes is not enough.
Well considering that backroom staff usually work a 9-5 day with an hr for lunch I think it's quite reasonable for bus drivers to expect an hrs break after 3.5 hrs driving... what's good for the goose and all that....
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Any scheduler giving a 30 minute break is not doing the job properly
why not? it's the legal minimum... in many companies breaks are unpaid... if you're a driver you're going to want an unpaid break of 30 mins rather than a 3hr unpaid break aren't you?

and tbh sometimes it is unavoidable to do anything but give a legal minimum break, else you end up needing an extra driver... and you end up with very inefficient shifts which could mean the difference between a route being viable or not
 

Megafuss

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why not? it's the legal minimum... in many companies breaks are unpaid... if you're a driver you're going to want an unpaid break of 30 mins rather than a 3hr unpaid break aren't you?

and tbh sometimes it is unavoidable to do anything but give a legal minimum break, else you end up needing an extra driver... and you end up with very inefficient shifts which could mean the difference between a route being viable or not

Where its a council contract one bus/driver job then it might be viable, but for town and city work then 30 min breaks is just asking for trouble for obvious reasons
 

KendalKing

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Following today's verdict on the fatal Coventry bus crash there have been calls for tougher laws on driving pcv's in old age and also for stricter controls on the number of hrs a driver can work each week.

It was reported that the driver involved, who was 78 at the time of the crash and had regularly been working over 70 hrs a week. Whilst I think it ridiculous that a 78 yr old would want to work full time in any job, let alone doing something as stressful as bus driving and even more incredulous that they would want to effectively do two weeks work every week I do think it's about time that the laws on driving hrs were looked at.

I'm sure that most members of the public are unaware that, technically, a bus driver can legally work 102.5 hrs {driving for 70 of those hrs} in any given week, and furthermore a bus driver can technically work 7 days a week 52 weeks a yr. Whilst this is extreme and I'm not suggesting that any bus driver would even attempt to do so, many bus drivers are forced to work long hrs and work many of their rest days just to make ends meet due to the almost poverty wages in many parts of the industry... indeed it isn't unheard of for bus drivers to be paid either the minimum wage or barely above it.

what are other members views on the matter?

When I First started working in the Bus industry, drivers were expected to 8-hours a day 5-days a week. When I left 23-years later, drivers were expected to work 13-hours a day 6-days a week!
 

Eyersey468

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We used to have a shift where you got in at 1005, were on break until 1038 and back out 1043, it was a real struggle to get in when you should and if you were much more than a few minutes late in the next run ended up having to be covered otherwise the shift became illegal.
 

Bletchleyite

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When I First started working in the Bus industry, drivers were expected to 8-hours a day 5-days a week. When I left 23-years later, drivers were expected to work 13-hours a day 6-days a week!

It would seem to me that the former is sensible and the latter downright dangerous.

FWIW, I'm not even convinced that planned overtime[1] and rest-day working should be permitted on work of that nature (or traincrew work, for that matter). You simply do not want tired people behind the wheel. There are enough of those in cars.

[1] Obviously you don't want a driver abandoning their bus in the middle of the road on hitting 8 hours, so there has to be some common sense here - but also realistic timetabling - if a bus is late every day, the timetable is incorrect and needs fixing.
 

KendalKing

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It would seem to me that the former is sensible and the latter downright dangerous.

This is one of the many reasons, why bus companies up & down the country are short of drivers.

You simply do not want tired people behind the wheel. There are enough of those in cars.

Unfortunately, some of them tired drivers in cars, are bus drivers going to/from work!

but also realistic timetabling - if a bus is late every day, the timetable is incorrect and needs fixing.

One of the last bus services, I drove on, drivers were allowed 70-mins off peak, and only 60-mins peak time!, to do a round trip.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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It would seem to me that the former is sensible and the latter downright dangerous.

FWIW, I'm not even convinced that planned overtime[1] and rest-day working should be permitted on work of that nature (or traincrew work, for that matter). You simply do not want tired people behind the wheel. There are enough of those in cars.

[1] Obviously you don't want a driver abandoning their bus in the middle of the road on hitting 8 hours, so there has to be some common sense here - but also realistic timetabling - if a bus is late every day, the timetable is incorrect and needs fixing.
But the problem is that, since dereg and privatisation there has been a wholesale erosion of drivers pay and terms and conditions in a race to the bottom. When I first started in the industry {as a scheduler} in 1986 with the local company bus driving was considered a viable alternative to other, less flexible employment. The pay rate at the company I worked for was £6.08/hr. The guaranteed week was 42 hrs.. minimum daily pay was 7.48hrs with no shift over 9.5 hrs... oh and all breaks were paid. Also there were no Sundays rota'd all Sunday work was voluntary overtime

Now if you look at the situation today 32 yrs later... My local company {First Cymru as it happens} pays IIRC £8.43/hr. ok so the guarunteed week has gone down to 39hrs... but under a recent change to terms and conditions new starters don't get any paid breaks so in effect, it is conceivable that to earn those 39hrs you are actually working 44 hrs {assuming a 5 day week and a 1 hr break}...oh and Sundays are now rota'd in with the normal working week.

The problem is both the British and EU rules just aren't fit for purpose anymore. They were designed in the days where large companies had strong unions who fought for their member's rights, terms and conditions... and gradually the terms and conditions were improved over and above the laws...

Nowadays it is quite clear that the driving rules are not really working and in fact are enabling employers to pay poverty wages and force their employees to work long, dangerous hours....

Just think how far down the earnings of a driver on a basic weeks wage has slid in 32 yrs... and then realise how many hrs overtime they have to do just to have a half decent standard of living... and then think how dangerous those drivers are becoming through stress and exhaustion... after all the job hasn't become easier in the intervening yrs... if anything with the increase in both traffic and anti-social behaviour then arguably the job is 10 times harder now..

Even though it will cause a crisis in the industry I really do hope that the driving rules will be tightened up severely
 

pompeyfan

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When I left the industry I was really tempted to keep up my CPC and do casual hours. I do miss the job in part, especially non service work like P+R and special events.

I sat down and thought though, the choice was I could do a 6 hour shift in my current employment on rest day work and gross £130, or I could do a 10+ hour day, lose an hours pay for meal break, and earn £92~.

Why would anyone want to be a bus driver? Even supermarkets pay more/as much. There’s no incentive to get behind the wheel any more.
 

TheWalrus

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Legal minimum should be 40 minutes. 30 minutes makes a very mentally tiring second part of your shift. Problem isn’t scheduling but when you run late.
 

philthetube

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Legal minimum should be 40 minutes. 30 minutes makes a very mentally tiring second part of your shift. Problem isn’t scheduling but when you run late.
Drivers should always take their breaks if running late, if a company tells drivers to ignore the law they are living dangerously, it would only take one disgruntled driver to record a phone conversation and pass it on to the commissioners for the proverbial to hit the fan.
 

Robertj21a

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Legal minimum should be 40 minutes. 30 minutes makes a very mentally tiring second part of your shift. Problem isn’t scheduling but when you run late.

I would suggest that it should be a whole hour break after 5 hours. I know it would result in extra costs but the current allowance is simply not good enough. If you need to go to the toilet and buy a drink/snack you'll have little of 30 mins left and it's important for your health that you stretch your legs too.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would suggest that it should be a whole hour break after 5 hours. I know it would result in extra costs but the current allowance is simply not good enough. If you need to go to the toilet and buy a drink/snack you'll have little of 30 mins left and it's important for your health that you stretch your legs too.

Agreed, I've always been in favour of a full hour lunch break (so you can eat lunch and go for a walk, say), and in my current line of work if things are a bit busy I will generally choose to work a bit extra on the end of the day than not to take it in full.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Agreed, I've always been in favour of a full hour lunch break (so you can eat lunch and go for a walk, say), and in my current line of work if things are a bit busy I will generally choose to work a bit extra on the end of the day than not to take it in full.
Absolutely... even the 45 minutes mandated by EU rules isn't enough.. I used to do some tour work... when it got to my rest period after 4.5 hrs we used to pull into the services and the boss would announce to the customers that "we'll have a 45 minute break" everyone would get off and wander into the services quickly followed by the boss... leaving me to lock the coach.. of course when I got into the services I was the last in the queue for food/ drink!... and then I had to be back before my "45 minutes" was up to unlock the coach! The boss couldn't see what the problem was... he really did think the 45 minutes started the moment the engine was switched off!
 

Statto

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Think the big groups at least will have 2 shifts during the day rather than just 8-10 hour shift in one go, ie, shift starts 6-7am, finish 10-11am, then afternoon shift starts 2-3pm to finish 6-7pm

Some routes like X2 Preston-Liverpool having a brake can be awkward if the bus is late, driver changes take place at Preston, but the X2 takes around 5 hours to get to Liverpool then back to Preston, 2 hours 15 minutes minimum one way, if bus is running late then there's no break at the Liverpool end. One advantage of long routes though is the shift is over when you get to the depot.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Think the big groups at least will have 2 shifts during the day rather than just 8-10 hour shift in one go, ie, shift starts 6-7am, finish 10-11am, then afternoon shift starts 2-3pm to finish 6-7pm.

Not at all... the big groups were the biggest proponents of "flexible rostering" which is what lead to the current situation where shifts are normally between 11-13 hrs long {with breaks} what they did was sell the idea of 4 "long shifts" a week to the drivers/ unions meaning you do your 40 hrs over 4 days... who wouldn't jump at the chance of an extra rest day? But then the big groups drove down their wage rates {in real terms} to the point where drivers HAD to do 1 or 2 rest days each week to make ends meet...

But yes you're right there are 2 shifts... earlies and lates... but one big group I worked for 1st sign on was 0445 and last "early" sign on was 0900 with earlies finishing between 1600 and 1900. The first "late" sign on's were at 0925 and sign off's for lates were anytime after 1900... most though finished after 2200. The company did have a "short hrs" rota but even that had 10 hr shifts {the rota having a minimum guaruntee of 40!}
 
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We also have split shifts with up to 4 and half hrs OFF . With payment of up to an hr of that depending on overall spread of duty , used to have a duty start 0635 ( 10mins to get bus out depot ( including first use check ) drive for 3 hrs 20 , break for 4 hrs 22 drive for 4hr28 .spread allowance of 1hr .5 mins to check bus and 5 mins to cash in signing off 1900 paid something like 8 hrs 58 . .then when company decides to save money they change the content shift and it pays less by an hour . So you are losing at least 5 or 6 hrs a week .pressure then upon you to make up for that by taking an extra shift ( which is paid at bare time .
 

Mwanesh

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Lets not forget the unions have sold out drivers.If the effort that they put in with the Labour muppets was the same for drivers we would be a happy lot. They have more voice when its political.I have had arguments with our Union leaders over their behaviour.
 

plarailfan

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In the past, I have worked for a couple of bus firms. The tide originally turned in the 1960's, when conductors were replaced by driver only "one man operation" with pay and conditions gradually going downhill, particularly since privatisation and deregulation.
Subsidised routes have been in decline for many years, with commercially operated routes, frequently being re-cast in many parts of the country. Pretty much the entire sector is struggling, with the result that canteen facilities have closed and many drivers are regularly working, for more than four hours, without any hope of a toilet break.
In urban parts of the country, vehicles and drivers can be prey to crash scam attempts, along with other, anti-social behaviour and vandalism.
No-one seems to have any real answers to all these woes and there doesn't seem to be any political will to reverse the trend.
Fortunately, modern vehicles are pleasant to drive, compared with those in the 1960's, that usually had noisy, vibrating bodywork and windows, under powered engines and a cramped cab.
Personally, I wish we could go back to the "Peoples republic of South Yorkshire" style of operation, where there were frequent services from morning till night and you could go miles for about 10p. It was a good strategy for keeping people out of their cars, but, no doubt, the subsidies for that kind of activity these days would be deemed to be excessive.....
 
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