Father who bought first-class ticket fined £484 - for getting on the wrong train

[Wolfie]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ter-boarding-wrong-virgin-train-a3702341.html

'A London lawyer fined £484 for using his first-class tickets on the wrong train says the penalty is “out of all proportion” and insists Virgin Trains will have to take him to court.

Mark Davis, 58, managing partner at his Regent’s Park-based firm, took his son Robin, 17, to scout out Liverpool University this summer ahead of Ucas applications.

On the way home on July 3, he said an inspector waved the pair on to a London-bound service home that left an hour before the train that was stated on their first-class advance tickets.
During their trip in an “almost empty” carriage, they were issued a penalty fare of £242 per ticket for being on the wrong train. Mr Davis believes these large charges are “unjustifiable”.'

Now this one could get VERY interesting. Do Virgin have the bottle to take a lawyer who is obviously up for a fight to Court and watch the focus really come onto the antiquated, consumer non-friendly, bye-laws? Particularly when he claims that he was given approval by someone who might well be an authorised person (it does look like the man on the platform defence).

I am absolutely prepared to bet that Virgin bottle out.....

 

[theblackwatch]

I would have thought as a lawyer, he would have realised that he hasn't been fined a penny, or even charged a penalty fare!

 

[Merseysider]

A few thoughts:

• Virgin don’t operate Penalty Fares
• Being sold a new ticket is referred to as a ‘fine’ at least 8 times
• Being a lawyer, one would hope he was familiar with the Byelaw requirement to hold a valid ticket.
• Being waved onto a train by a nondescript member of staff glancing briefly at tickets doesn’t necessarily constitute authority to travel!
• If it was indeed 45 minutes into the journey, why not just pay the fare to Stafford (2x £35.10) and reboard the right train there?
• He agreed to the T&C of Advance Fares when purchasing the tickets, which he acknowledges in the article (!)

That said, I hope Virgin back off; that is a truly ridiculous sum of money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

• Being waved onto a train by a nondescript member of staff glancing briefly at tickets doesn’t necessarily constitute authority to travel!

And again.

We need to move to authority to travel being given only in writing and clear signage to that effect everywhere.

How are passengers otherwise to determine what does and doesn't constitute authority to travel? On a plane you won't be allowed on if you do not have it. Why is a train different?

 

[jon0844]

Virgin will fold, you can be certain of that.

And as for authority to travel, what happens if I ask anyone when the next train to X is? They say a time and I say thanks. Do they need to ask me to show my ticket(s) or establish what train my advance tickets are for (in which case, you'd possibly wonder why I was asking as I actually know what train I need to get).

But, as I say, Virgin will bottle it and give a refund and possibly more.

 

[Merseysider]

We need to move to authority to travel being given only in writing and clear signage to that effect everywhere.

Agreed.

TPE do this routinely - with “Back on Track” handouts to passengers (one option of which is ‘De-restrict Advance Ticket’) so there’s no reason Virgin can’t too.

 

[furlong]

When you purchase an advance fare, are the relevant contractual terms (1) reasonable and (2) explained sufficiently clearly?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A few thoughts:

• Virgin don’t operate Penalty Fares
• Being sold a new ticket is referred to as a ‘fine’ at least 8 times
• Being a lawyer, one would hope he was familiar with the Byelaw requirement to hold a valid ticket.
• Being waved onto a train by a nondescript member of staff glancing briefly at tickets doesn’t necessarily constitute authority to travel!
• If it was indeed 45 minutes into the journey, why not just pay the fare to Stafford (2x £35.10) and reboard the right train there?
• He agreed to the T&C of Advance Fares when purchasing the tickets, which he acknowledges in the article (!)

That said, I hope Virgin back off; that is a truly ridiculous sum of money.

What do Virgin do instead of penalties then?

I don't think Virgin need to back off! If he bought an advance fare and took the wrong train then so he should get fined!

 

[Merseysider]

I can’t think of any ticket-issuing website that doesn’t state ‘Valid only on your chosen service’ or words to that effect for Advances.

That said, I don’t think it’s obvious to your average traveller than an entirely new ticket is in order if they board the wrong train.

 

[Darandio]

When you purchase an advance fare, are the relevant contractual terms (1) reasonable and (2) explained sufficiently clearly?

Well in this case I assume you mean telling you your ticket is valid on the booked train only? Then yes, you are told before you even select the ticket, when buying the ticket, in your email after buying the ticket, on the ticket........

Unless you mean something else, but this is the most relevant point.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I see he makes the "classic" mistake of associating fellow of travelers or lack of with the price of his fare. Virgins pricing policy has absolutely nothing to do with it demand but revenue maximization.

 

[Merseysider]

What do Virgin do instead of penalties then?

New tickets, or a UFN if funds are unavailable to the passenger.

It’s an important distinction because two Penalty Fares in this case would have been twice the fare due, so 2x(2x£242) for a total of £968.

 

[Deerfold]

I see he makes the "classic" mistake of associating fellow of travelers or lack of with the price of his fare. Virgins pricing policy has absolutely nothing to do with it demand but revenue maximization.

Well, not exactly - presumably the virtually empty carriage is connected to the bargain Advance fare he got.

 

[AndrewE]

Well, not exactly - presumably the virtually empty carriage is connected to the bargain Advance fare he got.

except that the empty carriage was on the train before the one he was booked on. Eurotunnel Shuttles (and ferries) on the other hand are (or were) only too happy to let you on an earlier departure as they recognise that it means a space is available to someone who might turn up later hoping to get a place on spec.

 

[Polarbear]

What do Virgin do instead of penalties then?

I don't think Virgin need to back off! If he bought an advance fare and took the wrong train then so he should get fined!

I agree that on the limited information we have available, VTWC could go for it, they tend to be adverse to bad publicity which a resultant court case will involve. On that basis, I suspect they'll fold at a fairly early stage.

 

[MG11]

But, as I say, Virgin will bottle it and give a refund and possibly more.

I hope they don't!

 

[jon0844]

I hope they don't!

But I bet they will. At best they'll settle with a gagging order in place, and we'll be none the wiser.

 

[neilmc]

A few years ago I was on a Manchester to London train when a passenger had boarded the wrong train, 20 minutes before the one they had an Advance ticket for. As we were approaching Crewe when the train manager came round and told him so, I was about to suggest to the passenger that they pay for the Manchester-Crewe section, alight and rebook an off-peak ticket from Crewe. In the event the train manager authorised them to travel on the invalid ticket, it was a quiet midday train and so I thought "Hooray, Virgin are showing common sense and compassion!"

So what to make of this? Well, I hope that this company who are supposed to be responsive to customer opinion note that this inflexibility has earned them a good kicking in an influential London newspaper, and I'd like to see that kicking be passed on to the train manager, unless policy has changed and Virgin Trains are getting more predatory. Presumably the aggrieved passenger has the legal know-how to minimise their costs should it come to a court case, and I'll be glad to see it get played out for once given that a lot of passengers would fold and pay up, even if they are in the right, when faced with the resources of a TOC.

If Virgin go through with it and win the case, it will tarnish not only Virgin Trains, with their lovely cast-iron monopoly of the West Coast line, but also their brand in terms of airlines, insurance, internet, wine and all the other areas in which they actually have to compete fairly to gain business. If it comes to that I will send a letter to the head of their brands with which I do business quoting the case and explaining that I consider their company now to be unscrupulous business practitioners and not worthy of patronising at any price, and I hope other readers would do the same.

I should add that I don't think that the comments on this forum, no doubt from people with a vested interest in the profitability of rail operators, would be at all representative of PUBLIC opinion.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well in this case I assume you mean telling you your ticket is valid on the booked train only? Then yes, you are told before you even select the ticket, when buying the ticket, in your email after buying the ticket, on the ticket........

Unless you mean something else, but this is the most relevant point.

One of the reasons I hate Advance Purchase is the bloody name Advance Purchase. They really should be booked train only discount ticket..

 

[Starmill]

I don't think Virgin need to back off! If he bought an advance fare and took the wrong train then so he should get fined!

Train companies do not have the power to impose fines. Where did you get the idea that they do?

Since you are using their logo next to your contributions here, and I assume therefore that you have licensed it, you probably ought to take slightly more care over the reputation of the Virgin brand. As I am sure you know, the value of the brand is almost entirely drawn from their public relations. The way to have a fine issued to someone who travels without a valid ticket is to take them to court. Taking people to court over fare disputes tends to have the effect of souring public relations. In general, therefore, Virgin Trains do not do this. I'm just a little disappointed that I have actually had to explain that!

Also, if Virgin Trains tried to prosecute the customer for trying to avoid the payment of the correct fare over the issue of buying an Advance ticket and getting on the wrong train, they would probably need evidence that there was an intent to avoid the payment of the correct fare, because these two did pay a fare, just not the right one. This could have been a 'mistake'. Additionally, having accepted the payments for two new tickets Virgin Trains can hardly prosecute them now (maybe they could hypothetically refund those tickets and then try to prosecute these customers, but I really really don't see how that would be in their interest, given they have their money).

 

[Essan]

If you buy a reduced price ticket for a specific service (advance fare) and then get on a different service then obviously you have no valid ticket so pay the consequences.

The only exeption being when a delayed connecting service (or very rarely other exenuating circumstances) prevent you from boarding the train you are booked on.

If you buy a cheap plane ticket, and arrive at the airport early, do you expect to be allowed on an earlier flight? If you book a ticket for the 9pm performance of a play, and arrive early, do you expect to be given a seat for the matinee performance?

 

[AndrewE]

If you buy a reduced price ticket for a specific service ....

If you buy a cheap plane ticket, and arrive at the airport early, do you expect to be allowed on an earlier flight? If you book a ticket for the 9pm performance of a play, and arrive early, do you expect to be given a seat for the matinee performance?

see my post #14: the ferries and Eurotunnel Shuttles will let you on an earlier service if there is room...

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the reasons I hate Advance Purchase is the bloody name Advance Purchase. They really should be booked train only discount ticket..

A brand like “APEX” or “Value” probably worked better.

 

[yorkie]

What do Virgin do instead of penalties then?

It is not appropriate to level a "penalty" in this case, but the maximum charge they can make under certain circumstances is to charge a full Anytime Single fare.

I don't think Virgin need to back off!

You are entitled to this opinion, but I am entitled to the opinion that it is ridiculous.

If he bought an advance fare and took the wrong train then so he should get fined!

This is incorrect. The correct action is to charge the lowest priced fare that would have been valid, which - depending on the train caught - is likely to be the 1st Off Peak Single @ £120 http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=LIV&grpo=1072&grpd=0435&tkt=FSS

The company is not permitted to "fine" people and is not permitted to charge the Anytime fare if the Off Peak is valid. However not all their Guards act correctly, so I would be very interested to learn what train he caught.

 

[MichaelAMW]

A few years ago I was on a Manchester to London train when a passenger had boarded the wrong train, 20 minutes before the one they had an Advance ticket for. As we were approaching Crewe when the train manager came round and told him so, I was about to suggest to the passenger that they pay for the Manchester-Crewe section, alight and rebook an off-peak ticket from Crewe. In the event the train manager authorised them to travel on the invalid ticket, it was a quiet midday train and so I thought "Hooray, Virgin are showing common sense and compassion!"

So what to make of this? Well, I hope that this company who are supposed to be responsive to customer opinion note that this inflexibility has earned them a good kicking in an influential London newspaper, and I'd like to see that kicking be passed on to the train manager, unless policy has changed and Virgin Trains are getting more predatory. Presumably the aggrieved passenger has the legal know-how to minimise their costs should it come to a court case, and I'll be glad to see it get played out for once given that a lot of passengers would fold and pay up, even if they are in the right, when faced with the resources of a TOC.

If Virgin go through with it and win the case, it will tarnish not only Virgin Trains, with their lovely cast-iron monopoly of the West Coast line, but also their brand in terms of airlines, insurance, internet, wine and all the other areas in which they actually have to compete fairly to gain business. If it comes to that I will send a letter to the head of their brands with which I do business quoting the case and explaining that I consider their company now to be unscrupulous business practitioners and not worthy of patronising at any price, and I hope other readers would do the same.

I should add that I don't think that the comments on this forum, no doubt from people with a vested interest in the profitability of rail operators, would be at all representative of PUBLIC opinion.

A few thoughts...

-- *You* would like the train manager to get a kicking? Why, what has he done to you? That's a pretty nasty thing to say.
-- The chap's repeated use of the word "fine" shows that he is just trying to stir things up because, being a solicitor, he knows what a fine is.
-- Advance tickets are about maximising revenue; I imagine that a London lawyer such as he is would be spending an awful lot of time trying to maximise his revenue on the basis of others' failure to follow the letter of the law. so he can't have his cake and eat it.
-- What have they done that is unscrupulous? It appears they have just enforced the ticket conditions. (I won't be following your suggestion regarding any future interaction with Virgin.)

Now, I do agree that here maybe the cost of being on the wrong train is rather high - maybe there should be a cap? - and in truth the only case he has depends on whether he can convince VWC he was given permission to travel.

 

[Mag_seven]

On the way home on July 3, he said an inspector waved the pair on to a London-bound service home that left an hour before the train that was stated on their first-class advance tickets.

I assume this would be a barrier check at Liverpool LS - if so its clear that those checking tickets were not doing their job properly.

 

[yorkie]

I assume this would be a barrier check at Liverpool LS - if so its clear that those checking tickets were not doing their job properly.

And, if it was a day trip (it sounds like it), the Guard wasn't doing their job properly either. No surprises here as I have assisted numerous Virgin Trains victims on this route.

If barrier staff accepted the ticket for travel, then I do not believe a Byelaw 18 prosecution could possibly succeed:

18 (3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

I expect Virgin Trains will drop the case.

If they do not, I am happy to provide assistance to the customer.

I'll fight for what's right, whether Virgin like it or not.

 

[jon0844]

I don't see a problem with asking to travel on an earlier service, and the TM using discretion. But you can't just let people off for taking any train they want, or else the whole advance ticket concept becomes impossible - people will just treat them like open tickets.

Perhaps on modern trains with digital reservations, you could even allow passengers to modify their booking online (via an app perhaps). I know you can seek to change your ticket before your actual train, subject to a fee, but a lot of people won't know that - and it isn't necessarily easy to do.

At least changing your reservations, or cancelling them if you take an earlier train, helps others as you no longer have empty seats on the train you should have been on.

 

[30907]

see my post #14: the ferries and Eurotunnel Shuttles will let you on an earlier service if there is room...

As you pointed out, it is in their interest to do so, as ferries/shuttles have finite capacity and they can potentially resell the space. With a train service this is not the case, as a walk-up passenger will always be sold a ticket. It might be good PR but that's another matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they could offer it commercially - £20 to get a train up to one hour earlier provided you change it before boarding. Could perhaps be offered only on the mobile app to push adoption?