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Father who bought first-class ticket fined £484 - for getting on the wrong train

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Haywain

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There's a difference between 'too difficult' and 'not trivial'. There may well be a case to be made for doing it, but dismissing it as trivial doesn't make it so.
It also doesn't reduce the overall cost.
 
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6Gman

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Trivial if you have the correct mindset, unlike train companies where everything is deemed 'too difficult'.

Still waiting for you to explain how the system could be changed to cope with the circumstances of this thread ...
 

Llanigraham

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This sort of comment is exactly what I mean.

Instead of taking the 'it is too hard' approach, how about accepting that a 1970's system is past its sell by date and delivering something suitable for today.

After all, is investing to deliver a good customer experience and to drive increased demand such a terrible idea.

Instead of criticising others, perhaps you would explain:
How are you going to get Network Rail and all the dfferent operators to agree with a single type of unit?
Who is going to pay for the nationwide re-equipment?
What are you going to do about all the un-manned stations?
 

sefton

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Instead of criticising others, perhaps you would explain:
How are you going to get Network Rail and all the dfferent operators to agree with a single type of unit?

Who is going to pay for the nationwide re-equipment?

What are you going to do about all the un-manned stations?

You determine the solution and impose it in all new contracts. For existing contracts you persuade operators it would be in their best interests to take part.

It would pay for itself with a reduction in ticketless travel.

Plenty of other operators worldwide operate transport operations where payment cannot be made at the station. Requiring smart cards / contactless to be touched in and out is a simple solution in use today.
 

sefton

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Here we go again. I touch in at Inverness and don't touch out - what fare should be charged?

You are thinking of touch in points only on platforms. Have some imagination and put them on the train and your issue is solved.
 

najaB

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You are thinking of touch in points only on platforms. Have some imagination and put them on the train and your issue is solved.
I touch in at Inverness and touch out as the train passes Dalwhinnie. Where did I really get out?

And if I don't tap out, what fare will be charged?
 

Polarbear

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You determine the solution and impose it in all new contracts. For existing contracts you persuade operators it would be in their best interests to take part.

It would pay for itself with a reduction in ticketless travel.

Plenty of other operators worldwide operate transport operations where payment cannot be made at the station. Requiring smart cards / contactless to be touched in and out is a simple solution in use today.

I'm not sure such a move would cover it's own costs. Yes, the technology exists & you can look to the Netherlands as an example of a system that's (almost - happy to be corrected), wholly gated, and where contactless/smart-cards are used instead of paper tickets. There will be other metro/urban rail networks that could be completely enclosed, but extrapolating such a model to a network that is as large and diverse as the UK mainline rail network would most likely run into billions of pounds.

You say it could be written in to the franchise agreements. Again, yes it could, but we already seem to be approaching a point where companies are becoming more reluctant to take on rail franchises due to the high costs involved, with no concrete guarantee of a reasonable return on any investment made. It's highly likely that many of the current operators would weigh up the cost of installing such a system across their networks, and refuse to submit compliant bits for new franchises.

What you suggest is indeed possible, of that I have no doubt. What I would question though is the the cost of implementing any such measure & who, ultimately, would pick up the tab for it's implementation? There are two answers to this question - the taxpayer, or rail customers through increased fares. You can be sure that there won't be a queue of investors waiting to stump up a large pot of cash for anything like this.
 

6Gman

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You determine the solution and impose it in all new contracts. For existing contracts you persuade operators it would be in their best interests to take part.

It would pay for itself with a reduction in ticketless travel.

Plenty of other operators worldwide operate transport operations where payment cannot be made at the station.

Requiring smart cards / contactless to be touched in and out is a simple solution in use today.

Assertion is not evidence.
 

6Gman

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And it still doesn't address what this thread is about.

A man getting on a train other than the one on which his ticket was valid, and then claiming to have been given permission so to do.
 

Llanigraham

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You determine the solution and impose it in all new contracts. For existing contracts you persuade operators it would be in their best interests to take part.
That would take some time!
And what about those stations that are not operated by a TOC?
And if you follow your "logic" you would need 2 systems running in parallel.

It would pay for itself with a reduction in ticketless travel.
Funnily enough there will be a large up-front cost,so who pays that?

Plenty of other operators worldwide operate transport operations where payment cannot be made at the station. Requiring smart cards / contactless to be touched in and out is a simple solution in use today.
But we aren't worldwide!
And haven't we had numerous discussions here on the impracticality of those systems in a fragemented system?
 

najaB

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And haven't we had numerous discussions here on the impracticality of those systems in a fragemented system?
Fragmentation is the least of the problems. The biggest problem is answering 'What is a maximum fare?' If I tap in at Inverness at 7am, I could be going to Beauly (£3.50) or London Kings Cross (£171.50). So would the maximum fare be half of the difference? £84 is a heck of a penalty for the Beauly-bound passenger, and a heck of a discount for the London-bound one.
 
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SouthStand

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Sooner than responding with a "tiresome response" for those of us who havent seen it before, wouldnt it be friendlier to not post, or indeed post in a more civil and friendly manner, I`m realtively new to the board . Good idea or bad idea, it was my suggestion, theres no call to be rude about these things, and in the longer term people will simply stop posting.

You're new to the internet aren't you? :lol:
 

AlterEgo

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You are thinking of touch in points only on platforms. Have some imagination and put them on the train and your issue is solved.

1) What’s the penalty for not touching in? A fixed sum? Fare to the final destination of the train? If so, from which station?

2) How do you prevent people only touching in when challenged?

3) What’s the maximum fare for incomplete journeys (touch in or touch out only)? See @najaB’s examples above.

4) How much will the infrastructure cost to install the readers and to ensure that the train correctly registers which station it’s at?

5) What if the train is full and standing and nobody can get to a reader?

6) How do you enforce First Class with this?

7) How do you upgrade your ticket to First Class?

8) How do you monitor abandoned journeys, when nobody has a ticket, just a touch in with no destination stated?

9) Will all contactless touch ins have to be pre-authorised by the bank? If so, what sum do you authorise for? £20? What if their journey’s going to cost £250? Are you going to pre-authorise that? For every passenger just in case? What if you only pre-authorise for £20 and a passenger travels London to Glasgow and doesn’t have the full fare available on touch out?
 

Polarbear

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If anyone wants to see how a touch & tap system can be abused, just board any London bus in Zone 1 that has multiple entrances. There will always be at least one person who just jumps on (and off) without tapping in.

I was on a 507 service once between Waterloo & Victoria, which was full & standing until someone spotted a number of Revenue Protection Officers about to board for a spot check. Cue half the passengers on the bus making a quick exit!o_O
 

mattmtfc

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He knew he was on the wrong train with an advance ticket and has been charged the full first class single fare. Just because he's some smart arse lawyer shouldn't make him exempt from the terms and conditions of the advance ticket. If he refuses to pay up I hope virgin do him under s.5 rora instead of a bylaw 18 offence.
 

jellybaby

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If anyone wants to see how a touch & tap system can be abused, just board any London bus in Zone 1 that has multiple entrances. There will always be at least one person who just jumps on (and off) without tapping in.

Some of them might have something mundane like a paper travelcard. I don't think a season ticket on Oyster requires you to touch in to be valid either.
 

yorkie

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He knew he was on the wrong train with an advance ticket and has been charged the full first class single fare.
Which incorrect.
Just because he's some smart arse lawyer shouldn't make him exempt from the terms and conditions of the advance ticket.
You are allowed to take an earlier train if a member of staff authorises you to do so.

If he refuses to pay up I hope virgin do him under s.5 rora instead of a bylaw 18 offence.
So do I; he would win the case and it would be extremely damaging for Virgin. Of course this won't happen!
 

najaB

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So do I; he would win the case and it would be extremely damaging for Virgin.
I don't see it as clear cut as you do. He might win, if the court accepted the 'man on the platform' defence or he might lose if they do not. It's unlikely in the extreme that Virgin will attempt to find out though, so a bit of a mot point.
 

yorkie

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I don't see how it can possibly be proven that he intended to deprive Virgin of the fare, in these circumstances.

For a RoRA prosecution to succeed, it would be up to Virgin to prove their case, and not the other way round.
 

najaB

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I don't see how it can possibly be proven that he intended to deprive Virgin of the fare, in these circumstances.
If the Court doesn't accept the 'man on the platform' defence then: a) He held an Advance ticket and knowingly travelled on a different train - so a new ticket was required. b) He has refused to pay for the new ticket. I suppose that there's the question of if they've asked for an Anytime fare when an Off-Peak fare would be appropriate, but it doesn't change the principle.
 

Polarbear

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Some of them might have something mundane like a paper travelcard. I don't think a season ticket on Oyster requires you to touch in to be valid either.

Yep, that's true, but having seen a very busy route 507 bus literally empty out along Horseferry Road (i.e. nowhere near any of the main destinations on the route), when TFL inspectors boarded, I'd be left wondering how many of those actually intended to alight there?;)
 
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