Faygate to Brookwood not via London

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radamfi

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What are the permitted routes of a Faygate to Brookwood 'not via London' Anytime Day Return ticket?
 
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John @ home

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What are the permitted routes of a Faygate to Brookwood 'not via London' Anytime Day Return ticket?
There are no through trains.

Routeing Points (RPs) for Faygate are Horsham and Three Bridges.
RPs for Brookwood are Ash Vale, Farnborough Group and Woking.

Fares check
Comparing Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares route Not Via London:
Faygate - Brookwood SDS £13.50
Faygate - Ash Vale SDS £13.50. So Ash Vale is an appropriate RP.
Faygate - Farnborough Group (all members) SDS £16.60. So Farnborough Group is not an appropriate RP.
Faygate - Woking SDS £14.80. So Woking is not an appropriate RP.
Horsham - Brookwood SDS £13.50. So Horsham is an appropriate RP.
Three Bridges - Brookwood SDS £17.60. So Three Bridges is not an appropriate RP.

Mapped routes
Ash Vale - Horsham map combinations are:
  • LONDON
  • LB+SD+WW
  • LB+WW
  • SC+CS+WW
  • SC+WW
All routes using LONDON, SC+CS+WW or SC+WW pass through Woking, which has failed the fares check. These routes are discarded.
All routes using LB+SD+WW or LB+WW pass through Three Bridges, which has failed the fares check. These routes are discarded.
Therefore there are no mapped routes for a Faygate - Brookwood route Not Via London journey.

So Permitted Routes Faygate - Brookwood route Not Via London are:
  • the shortest route by rail (Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, Leatherhead, Effingham Junction, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood) and
  • any route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route (this will include Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, [walk] Dorking Deepdene, Gomshall, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood).
 

radamfi

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Thanks for that detailed analysis. If you try to book it on the Southern site, it offers 5 journeys in the morning from Faygate to Brookwood. 4 of them pass through Three Bridges, the one remaining is the shortest route and is not valid with any ticket!
 

embers25

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There are no through trains.

Routeing Points (RPs) for Faygate are Horsham and Three Bridges.
RPs for Brookwood are Ash Vale, Farnborough Group and Woking.

Fares check
Comparing Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares route Not Via London:
Faygate - Brookwood SDS £13.50
Faygate - Ash Vale SDS £13.50. So Ash Vale is an appropriate RP.
Faygate - Farnborough Group (all members) SDS £16.60. So Farnborough Group is not an appropriate RP.
Faygate - Woking SDS £14.80. So Woking is not an appropriate RP.
Horsham - Brookwood SDS £13.50. So Horsham is an appropriate RP.
Three Bridges - Brookwood SDS £17.60. So Three Bridges is not an appropriate RP.

Mapped routes
Ash Vale - Horsham map combinations are:
  • LONDON
  • LB+SD+WW
  • LB+WW
  • SC+CS+WW
  • SC+WW
All routes using LONDON, SC+CS+WW or SC+WW pass through Woking, which has failed the fares check. These routes are discarded.
All routes using LB+SD+WW or LB+WW pass through Three Bridges, which has failed the fares check. These routes are discarded.
Therefore there are no mapped routes for a Faygate - Brookwood route Not Via London journey.

So Permitted Routes Faygate - Brookwood route Not Via London are:
  • the shortest route by rail (Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, Leatherhead, Effingham Junction, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood) and
  • any route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route (this will include Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, [walk] Dorking Deepdene, Gomshall, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood).

This one I think is open to negotiation as Dorking-Leatherhead-Guildford is 16.5 miles and Dorking Deepdene to Guildford is 13.25 miles so the former is 3.25 miles longer and so fails the plus 3 rule. I agree its technically the shortest route by RAIL from Faygate but in this case I would argue Dorking-Dorking Deepdene is a rail interchange given that the distance between the two stations is less than that between the platforms for Gravesend and Ashford at Ebbsfleet. It's hardly Yeovil Junction to Pen Mill standards.
 

John @ home

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Dorking-Leatherhead-Guildford is 16.5 miles and Dorking Deepdene to Guildford is 13.25 miles so the former is 3.25 miles longer and so fails the plus 3 rule. I agree its technically the shortest route by RAIL
Good. We are agreed that the shortest Faygate - Brookwood route by rail is Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, Leatherhead, Effingham Junction, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood.
I would argue Dorking-Dorking Deepdene is a rail interchange
Agreed, but that does not affect the calculation of the shortest Faygate - Brookwood route by rail.

We know from the National Routeing Guide that
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. ... The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.

If a journey does not have an origin routeing point and a destination routeing point, its permitted route is
  • the shortest route served by a regular passenger service, or
  • a route no more then 3 miles longer or
  • any other route permitted by an easement.
Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.
We know from correspondence with ATOC that
Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html
We do not know of any rule which requires a walk between stations where this is not required by a route shown on the ticket. If you know of such a rule, please tell us where to find it. If there is no such rule, then the shortest Faygate - Brookwood route defined by the National Routeing Guide is Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, Leatherhead, Effingham Junction, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood.

Those who have studied the electronic data released under the government's open data initiative tell us that the shortest route is calculated by rail unless a route restriction dictates otherwise, and that routes which involve walking between recognised rail interchange stations are Permitted if they are not more than 3 miles longer than this shortest route. This includes routes shorter than the shortest route by rail, such as Faygate, Horsham, Dorking, [walk] Dorking Deepdene, Gomshall, Guildford, Woking, Brookwood.
 

radamfi

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What pairs of stations are so close that they are considered to be the same station when calculating the shortest route for routeing purposes?

Can I assume that RJIS permits travel via Three Bridges and/or Woking as journey planners allow this route? If RJIS permits it, then do we need to look at the Routeing Guide?
 
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