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FCC 317s on Thameslink

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compsci

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I got a slightly blurry picture of one at KCM with my phone. I thought that only 319s were cleared to work through the tunnels on that route.
 
T

Tom

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2 are with the Thameslink side at any one time. Drags are done by GBRf I believe.
 

yorkie

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I got a slightly blurry picture of one at KCM with my phone. I thought that only 319s were cleared to work through the tunnels on that route.
I think almost anything can use the 'Widened Lines', 31s used to go down there from Welwyn (don't suppose that'd be allowed these days but that would be quite hellfire!).

Also, wasn't there a period between the King's Cross modernisation and the Thameslink project where 317s operated into Moorgate from Bedford?
 

RJ

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Pretty much anything can go through the tunnels bar the big new yinging locos. I saw a pair of 317s head south, empty through KCM last week, then the same pair heading north through Mill Hill on the fast a while later - training run presumably.
 

class 313

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2 are with the Thameslink side at any one time. Drags are done by GBRf I believe.

No? Drags are done by FCC drivers by 319s...

Pretty much anything can go through the tunnels bar the big new yinging locos. I saw a pair of 317s head south, empty through KCM last week, then the same pair heading north through Mill Hill on the fast a while later - training run presumably.

Although a few months back you said 37s wernt alowed through snow hill?
 

compsci

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I'm sure that I've heard somewhere that only units fitted with end doors are permitted on part of the route between West Hampstead and Blackfriars (not sure which part) because of narrow tunnels, and also that 319s have additional fireproofing to cover regulations governing the route. Does anyone know anything more about this?
 

class 313

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I'm sure that I've heard somewhere that only units fitted with end doors are permitted on part of the route between West Hampstead and Blackfriars (not sure which part) because of narrow tunnels, and also that 319s have additional fireproofing to cover regulations governing the route. Does anyone know anything more about this?

This is true...
 

Julian G

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Here's something off TL YGroups.

Code:
Ta NL

After several discussions on uk.railway what is and what is not
allowed over the three bits of the Thameslink tunnel network:
Moorgate - Farringdon
Blackfriars - Farringdon
Kentish Town - Farringdon
a learned correspondant posted the relevant details from the LNE and
Southern Sectional Appendices.

I thought this gen may be of interest here, it was posted in two bits :

[1]

''...

Kentish Town Junction to Blackfriars:
Classes 317 and 319 allowed.
Classes 321, 322, 323, 325, 372, 373, 390 not allowed.
Unrestricted and C1 and C3 rolling stock allowed.
Classes 08, 09, 20, 37, 43, 46, 47, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 66, and
67: Farringdon to Blackfriars only
Classes 31, 33, and 73:
Farringdon to Blackfriars: unrestricted
Barbican to Moorgate: not allowed
Kentish Town Jn to Barbican: 15mph limit, OHLE must be isolated,
locos must not stand under bridges, tunnels, and insulators
directly over the track, as exhaust may damage the OHLE.

...''


372 : I suspected that may have meant 377/2 *but* apparently the
original says 373/372, so we are not sure what that means unless it is
a typo for 373 / 373/3 as there ought be no disctinction between 373
/0 /1 /2 but /3 is different.


[2]

''...

Due to reduced clearance the driving cab windows on Class 317 and 319
units must be kept closed when passing through the tunnels situated
between Kentish Town and Moorgate stations.

[Southbound]
Drivers of units with any traction motors isolated, or hauling dead
units must not proceed beyond signal WH.388 in Clerkenwell No.1 Tunnel
unless the signal is displaying a green aspect. In the event of the
signal not displaying a green aspect after a reasonable time, the Driver
must contact the Signaller at West Hampstead box to ascertain the
circumstances.

Any movement, other than a Class 317 or 319 E.M.U. requiring to proceed
to a platform line at Moorgate must stop short of the platform and
proceed at walking pace and must not be allowed to come into contact
with the buffer stop.

In the event of a total failure of the rectifier plant at Farringdon
sub-station, no train consisting of more than four cars may travel over
the Down or Up Snow Hill line between Farringdon and City Thameslink.
The Driver of a train on the Down or Up Snow Hill line will be
instructed by the Signaller not to advance the power controller beyond
notch 2 until the train has arrived at City Thameslink or Farringdon
station respectively.

A train travelling in the wrong direction over the Down Snow Hill line
[during Single Line Working] must be brought to a stand at position
light signal WH.618 protecting the crossover on the City Thameslink side
of Farringdon Junction. A train travelling in the wrong direction over
the Up Snow Hill line must be brought to a stand opposite the Down Snow
Hill line signal VS.345. When the train has come to a stand the Driver
must immediately contact the Signaller at Victoria box.

Trains consisting of 12 cars must not exceed a speed of 10 mph in either
direction between Farringdon and City Thameslink stations.

CITY THAMESLINK local instructions:

Except in emergency, trains must not be divided.

A train (or portion there of) must not start away from the platform or
move along the platform unless the appropriate signal is showing a
proceed aspect or the Driver has first obtained the Signaller's
permission.

A loaded passenger train for Farringdon, formed of 4 cars only and with
more than one traction motor defective or isolated, must not be
restarted from a stand at Up line signal VS346.

A train with more than half the traction motors defective or isolated is
not permitted to leave City Thameslink [towards Blackfriars]. A train
with up to half the traction motors defective or isolated may proceed
but must be formed of at least 8 cars. In these circumstances the Driver
must advise the Signaller and arrangements will be made for the train to
be given a clear run from City Thameslink to Blackfriars. When applying
power either under normal conditions, or when there are defective or
isolated motors in the formation, trains must be driven in notch 4,
subject to the observance of speed restrictions and signal aspects.

If more than half the traction motors are defective or isolated a train
booked to terminate at City Thameslink and return to the Kent Route,
must where possible be terminated at Blackfriars in the northbound
direction.

Southern Region route restrictions for Farringdon to Herne Hill and
Metropolitan Junction:

* Classes 319 455 456 375 377 allowed without restriction.

* Classes 150 153 155 156 158 159 165 166 170 171 180 220 221 313 373
442 444 450 458 460 HST(SSL) 08 09 55 56 58 60 92 forbidden.

* Class 365 - up to 8 cars, but not in platforms 4 and 5 at Blackfriars.

* Class 376 - up to 5 cars Smithfield Sidings to Blackfriars, up to 10
cars Blackfriars and south.

* Classes 465 and 466 - up to 8 cars Smithfield Sidings and southwards,
except:
- siding 2 can only take 6 cars
- 2x466 not permitted north of Blackfriars
- trains must not be signalled towards signal WH.481
- up to 10 cars permitted Blackfriars and south for ECS for diversions
only.

* Class 508 - Blackfriars to Herne Hill only.

* Mk3 (SSL) - Blackfriars to Metropolitan Junction only, plus Herne Hill
station.

* RYL Mk3 - Blackfriars and south only.

* Classes 20 31 33 73 - permitted with restrictions.

15mph speed restriction through the station and junction at Farringdon.

To avoid exhaust damage to the overhead line equipment, which must be
isolated, locomotives must not stand directly beneath insulators
positioned above the track nor under the bridge at Farringdon station.

Over Blackfriars Bridge:
- Down Slow line (P4) - All locomotives, locomotive hauled trains and
cranes prohibited.
- Up Slow line (P5) and Platform lines (P1-P3) - Permitted when working
infrastructure trains subject to a maximum speed of 10mph across the
bridge.
- Carriage Roads No.1 and No.2 - All locomotives, locomotive hauled
trains and cranes prohibited except by special permission of the
Territory Structures Engineer.

Blackfriars to Metropolitan Junction:
- Classes 20 31 33 only permitted when working Infrastructure trains
(including breakdown trains).
- Class 73 permitted subject to the instruction shown in General
Instructions.

* Classes 37/0 37/4 37/5 - Blackfriars to Herne Hill only, subject to
the same restrictions as class 31.

* Class 37 (except 37/0 37/4 37/5) 47 57 59 66 67 - South end of
Blackfriars Bridge to Herne Hill only. Prohibited from all lines on
Blackfriars River Bridge.

* All locos and cranes: over Blackfriars Bridge, no locomotive or
crane can be coupled to another locomotive or crane.

...''


Note you need to take the two sections toghether - there are varous
types of traction that are permitted to pass from Kentish Town to
Blackfriars *but* are then banned over Blackfriars bridge rendering
their use on through trains not possible.
 

Oracle

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The list of locos authorised to go through the CWL or City Widened Lines was according to RAIL Classes 33, 73 and 31. Thus the last time any infrastructure work was carried out and photo (Class 33 at Farringdon) appeared in RAIL, a Class 33 was used because of non-availabilty of a 31. In the good old days, tripcock-fitted DMUs from the LMR and ER were used, as well as Class 15- and 31-hauled carriage stock. I don't recall any Class 20s being used, although I distinctly remember the 31s at Moorgate.
 
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