FCC evening peak (again)

[Carefree]

Hi. FCC's evening peak restrictions have long been a source of bafflement to passengers. Now they appear to be baffling staff...

I am today travelling on a standard Off-Peak Day Return from Bedford to Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon. It is a Network Railcard discounted ticket costing £19.15. This is a journey I will be making reasonably frequently, so would like to know of the validity of the return portion during the evening peak. Today I have asked a series of FCC staff members, and been told the following:
1. It is not valid at all in the evening peak (4pm to 7pm).
2. It is not valid at all in the evening peak (4.20pm to 7pm).
3. It is not valid at all in the evening peak (4.30pm to 7pm).
4. It is not valid during part of the evening peak (5.30pm to 6.30pm).
5. It is valid throughout the evening peak.
6. It may or may not be valid during the evening peak, but "I would let you through the barrier with it, while some of my colleagues may not".

I have also had various explanations on the reasoning for the above, some of them centring on the location of Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon. Apparently tickets may or may not be valid in the evening peak depending on any combination of the following:
1. Whether C&SD is in the London Travelcard area (some said it was, some said it wasn't - for the record, it is not).
2. Whether C&SD is 'more than two hours away from London' (which, in the understanding of two staff, would make my ticket valid).
3. Whether C&SD is in Scotland or Wales (again, this would make my ticket valid).

I have asked every member of staff I have spoken to for a written explanation of the rules, and none has been able to provide one.

So - is my ticket valid in the evening peak?

 

[LexyBoy]

Your ticket has restriction code TS, which makes things pretty simple.

Outward: from Bedford, at or after 0910.
Return: by any train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. Whether C&SD is in the London Travelcard area (some said it was, some said it wasn't - for the record, it is not).
2. Whether C&SD is 'more than two hours away from London' (which, in the understanding of two staff, would make my ticket valid).
3. Whether C&SD is in Scotland or Wales (again, this would make my ticket valid).

1. Looking at Bedford-Surbiton (the last station you pass through on your trip which is in the Travelcard area, the Off Peak Day Return has restriction LS, which does have evening peak restrictions on leaving London northbound. Useful to know! I'll leave it to others to say whether this is the general situation and why.

2. I'm guessing this is some sort of hand-waving explanation of the rule that tickets from within the Network Area to outside of it (or v/v) are unrestricted on the leg between London and the station within it. Your ticket would be valid in the evening peak if it were, for example, Bedford-Swindon (although Swindon is only 1 hour from London, whilst Weymouth which is in the Network Area is more than 2 hours from London).

3. Ditto point 2.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it's relatively straightforward to figure this one out, so it baffles me why FCC are incapable of training their staff to an adequate level. However, I am aware of the poor training and poor approach to customer service within the company, so it does not surprise me at all. Disappointing, but not surprising, sadly.

If any member of staff claimed the ticket was invalid I would politely ask them to look up the restriction code. If they were unable to do so, I would ask them to explain why they believe it to be invalid, and what restriction code they believe applies?

It's important to be assertive, not rude/aggressive but also I do feel we shouldn't be passive and simply accept being given incorrect information. I find the best course is to ask staff to look it up. If a member of staff refused to let me through the barrier on the basis it was invalid, and they were unable to look up the restriction code, I'd insist on either being allowed through or for another member of staff in a position to check the restriction to confirm it. They cannot simply refuse to let you through!

 

[LexyBoy]

I have asked every member of staff I have spoken to for a written explanation of the rules, and none has been able to provide one.

The rule is, you may travel on any train not excluded in the ticket restrictions. As your experience shows, there's no realistic way that staff can know the restrictions of a ticket without the code being printed on the ticket.

It's a minefield for all concerned, as the more the TOCs attempt to make restrictions clear for the majority (Bedford-London travellers for instance), the more confusing it becomes for the minority.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, the restriction code needs to be looked up for each ticket. Each code has text associated with it, that informs you which times are barred (and whether the restriction applies to trains timed to depart, timed to arrive, or the time you board). Yes, printing the code on the ticket would mean that the code doesn't have to be looked up, but unless the associated text was memorised (or a list carried) the 2-letter code itself doesn't tell you. Of course, some passengers/staff will get to recognise certain common codes.

If a member of staff is unable or unwilling to look up the restriction code, then they should admit this, rather than offer incorrect information.

You can always get this information on the National Rail website (though the method is rather convoluted!), or you can telephone National Rail enquiries, or you can ask on this site (and if anyone gives incorrect information here, there is a very high chance it will be corrected and it may be deleted if spotted early on).

Not many people purposefully give out incorrect information, and mistakes do happen, but if someone is unwilling or unable to look something up, they should admit that instead of making up an answer, and I do find it baffling that people make things up when they're not sure.

If they said "Sorry, I can't look up that restriction right now, I think from memory it may be this, but you'd need to ask someone in a position to check" then fair enough.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Of course, some passengers/staff will get to recognise certain common codes.

I expect, if this were to happen, that some staff will also get to reognise unusual codes, think to themselves "Hmm, why are the restrictions on that ticket so lenient?", and the result will inevitably be a tightening up of restrictions on tickets such as the one in question...

 

[John @ home]

some staff will also get to reognise unusual codes, think to themselves "Hmm, why are the restrictions on that ticket so lenient?", and the result will inevitably be a tightening up of restrictions on tickets such as the one in question.

Not in this instance. It is evident from FCC's description of evening peak restrictions and the associated map that on their trains these restrictions apply to tickets from a station in Zone B or Zone C to a station in Zone D.

Bedford is in Zone D, but Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon is in neither Zone B nor Zone C. Therefore evening peak restrictions do not apply.

 

[Carefree]

Not in this instance. It is evident from FCC's description of evening peak restrictions and the associated map that on their trains these restrictions apply to tickets from a station in Zone B or Zone C to a station in Zone D.

Bedford is in Zone D, but Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon is in neither Zone B nor Zone C. Therefore evening peak restrictions do not apply.

Several of the members of staff I spoke to (including a senior RPI) were well-briefed on the whole 'Zone B/C to Zone D' business, and believe it or not some even used this as a reason to explain why my ticket was not valid. The argument was that as I was travelling from St Pancras (in Zone B - where I was making my connection) to Bedford (in Zone D) it was NOT valid in the evening peak. Despite my quite polite, but firm insistence that I was not travelling from St Pancras, but from Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon, the senior RPI was very clear that 'it doesn't matter where you start your journey, it's where you get on the train'.

I asked several people for details on the restriction for this particular ticket, and the most any of them could muster was an A4 photocopied sheet of paper which seemed to say that no travel from St Pancras north in the evening peak is permitted on off-peak tickets.

If ignorance of the restrictions runs as high as the senior RPI at a TOC's busiest station, what can one do? As I say in my original post, I am likely to be making this journey fairly regularly - sometimes needing to return during the evening peak. Do I really need to write to the TOC MD, and endure the inevitable 28-day wait for a letter telling me I can (or possibly cannot) travel at the time clearly permitted by this ticket? Do I then have to carry this scrap of paper everywhere I go? Frankly, I'm not willing to do that.

And I'd be interested in observations on what would happen in what I foresee to be the likely scenario of me turning up at St Pancras one day for a post-1630 service, and then find I am denied a pathway through the barriers until 1901. What is the delay repay sum due on a £19.15 ticket for a 2.5hr delay caused by gross negligence of a TOC or it's employees?

 

[John @ home]

If ignorance of the restrictions runs as high as the senior RPI at a TOC's busiest station, what can one do?

I would carry a print-out of validity code TS with me.

Any member of railway staff who challenges your use of a particular train should be in a position to check that a £29 (Railcard £19.25) Bedford - Cobham & Stoke D route + Any Permitted Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) has validity code TS.

 

[Edvid]

You've just provided a way for others to check the descriptions of other validity codes without resorting to Avantix - assuming they know the codes for the relevant tickets too.

(I've seen the LS pdf, and it includes a note on the suspension of evening peak restrictions from 23 December to 2 January 2012 inclusive.)

 

[John @ home]

You've just provided a way for others to check the descriptions of other validity codes

Good. These appeared on the National Rail Enquiries site late last year, but finding them on that site is still too complex.

 

[yorkie]

...the senior RPI was very clear that 'it doesn't matter where you start your journey, it's where you get on the train'.
...

If you can PM me the name of this senior RPI, I will ask my contacts to make some inquiries to resolve this without having to take the matter further. For an RPI to make such a statement is disappointing, for a supposedly senior RPI, that's inexcusable on the part of the TOC providing the training (or lack of).

 

[Caped Crusader]

This brings into play the wonderful scenario where the return portion of an Off-Peak Return may have a different validity from an Off Peak Single on the same route and same train.
There is a restriction code that is - Outward Travel, By Any Train. Return Travel, By Any Train. Why give it a restriction code and why call it an Off Peak ticket when it quite clearly isn't.

Simple fare structure, my arse!

 

[t0ffeeman]

Joining the train from London Bridge from Waterloo East should give you less hassle.

 

[yorkie]

There is a restriction code that is - Outward Travel, By Any Train. Return Travel, By Any Train. Why give it a restriction code and why call it an Off Peak ticket when it quite clearly isn't.

That is the restriction that used to apply to all 'SVR' tickets (Tickets of the code 'SVR' used to be called Saver Return, but is now called Off Peak Return) for all journeys that did not go to, from, or via London area stations (including Reading, MKC, Bedford, Stevenage etc) under BR.

They still exist for some flows, either with the same wording or with a spurious/irrelevant 'restriction' to 'justify' the Off Peak name.

For example, a York to Peterborough SVR had that condition, but now it has a condition that states it's not valid between 0115 and 0400, when no trains run anyway! The reason for this is to charge a higher, Anytime (formerly known as "Open") fare, for any customers wishing to buy on board or found with an Advance ticket for the wrong train, out of date Railcard, etc. In other words, the more expensive will only be sold to people who are effectively being penalised.

We can campaign for tickets that are in fact valid on any train to not be called Off Peak - but what would they be called instead? and can we force TOCs to remove the Anytime fare (for York to Peterborough that's a lot more expensive)? No because they want to use it as a method to rake in money when people get the wrong ticket on an Advance, that must make a lot of revenue for EC!

So if we made that argument, the TOCs would simply introduce restrictions on such tickets

 

[button_boxer]

There is a slight difference in that the 8A off-peak return does not allow break of journey on the outward half, whereas the corresponding anytime does, but as yorkie says the main reason is to have a more expensive ticket to sell on board for TOCs with an anytimes-only policy.

 

[stut]

FCC are terrible for this - many RPIs are also unaware that Off-Peak Returns have a shorter evening peak than Off-Peak returns on several journeys (despite this being clearly printed on the paper timetable...

However, as a slight diversion, why are TOCs allowed to charge Anytime fares on board rather than the cheapest walk-up ticket?

 

[yorkie]

However, as a slight diversion, why are TOCs allowed to charge Anytime fares on board rather than the cheapest walk-up ticket?

NRCoC says:

If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special
terms unless ... (various exceptions)

If this rule did not exist, there would be no benefit to visiting a ticket office, and on many trains tickets would not be checked as the guard would not get very far.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FCC are terrible for this...

It's hard to believe FCC and TPE are run by the same parent company, as FCC on-board ticket checks are rare, and when they do occur, they may be carried out by rude, knowledgeable staff who lack the inclination to even check what they are doing is correct. This is extremely rare on TPE, I've heard of one dodgy guard on TPE, and that's about it. There are some good FCC RPIs, e.g. one on this forum - but he works south of the Thames, and all the (many) bad reports I've heard are on the London - Bedford or Great Northern routes.

FCC should be stripped of the franchise, and their license to operate a PF scheme should be revoked due to misuse of the scheme by some RPIs and the company failing to ensure that their RPIs know what they are doing.

 

[jon0844]

They still haven't re-sited the PF poster for the side entrance at Hatfield, so at night (or when the main building is locked) it's very easy to miss any warning that you're in a compulsory ticket area. There's not even the traditional yellow line on the ground to show when you've entered as there used to be, nor the permit to travel machine for the many times that one or both external TVMs are out of service.

Anyone would think they want to catch people out!!

 

[Bedpan]

If you can PM me the name of this senior RPI, I will ask my contacts to make some inquiries to resolve this without having to take the matter further. For an RPI to make such a statement is disappointing, for a supposedly senior RPI, that's inexcusable on the part of the TOC providing the training (or lack of).

I think this problem stems right from the top.

The restrictions as described in successive timetables ever since they (the restrictions) were introduced indicate that you cannot join a northbound train within Area B (the travelcard area South of West Hampstead) and travel to Area D (St Albans to Bedford as far as the Thameslink Route is concerned). Its clearly stated thus in the current timetable at the top of page 12.

I have always been led to believe that this is the situation - which I have always considered very unfair - I chose not to use FCC at all for about 18 months due to three "incidents" (for want of a better word) although the introduction of the evening peak restrictions and the associated rise in the fare from £10 (for an off peak day travelcard with a Network Card discount) to £26 for an anytime day travelcard - for which there was at the time no railcard discount - outrageous.

At the time I criticised the introduction of the restrictions on the "Meet the Directors" Forum. In particular I asked why I was not allowed to travel back from from say Reading or Oxford with First on an off peak ticket (a journey I was making at the time) yet there were no restrictions on a journey back from Three Bridges.

To be specific, it was the forum on 6.7.07, the initial question being question 20, and I never had a response to it, or at least not covering the topic referred to above, although there were other points I raised which they did reply to.

As far as I know Elaine Holt herself presided over these forums at the time.

So, ever since then I have been hanging around London till 1900hrs plus beforer catching a train home, or, if I have been somewhere like the Havant area I have returned via Three Bridges so as to be able to join my Thameslink route train in Area A (Brighton - Redhill although I wasn't aware that ny FCC trains stopped at Redhill any more).

I have been waiting for the day that I missed a train departing St Pancras before 1630 hrs due to a previous train being delayed, so I could claim under Delay Repay, but that hasn't happened.

Now I read on this thread that in fact a ticket to Cobham (and so presumably Esher, which I have been ready to leave at around 1700 not so long ago, and no doubt everywhere else in the South East outside the Travelcard Area), has restriction code TS and is therefore valid for travel in the evening peak, and has been for the last four years.

FFS...

 

[trevmonk]

I think this is more complicated than it looks. If you enter a return journey from St Albans (also in the FCC zone D area) to Cobham on the National Rail site it will offer an off peak return, but with a restriction code of UT. This includes no return travel from St Pancras between 16.30 and 19.01, the usual FCC restriction.

Entering a journey from Bedford to Cobham does offer an off peak ticket with a TS restriction code (any return train) but lists the return from St Pancras via East Midlands services, avoiding FCC.

So there are different restrictions for stations that are in the same FCC zone!

 

[Paul Kelly]

St Albans to Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon is priced by South West Trains - FCC have no control over the restrictions on that one!

 

[Bedpan]

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you can find restriction codes on the National Rail site - can anybody advise how to do it please?

 

[raildude]

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you can find restriction codes on the National Rail site - can anybody advise how to do it please?

Is this what you are after Bedpan?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf

That link shows what the restriction code translates to...

 

[Bedpan]

Thanks for the useful link, which I have stored in my favourites, but I was more thinking of how you can tell what the validity code for a ticket you buy, or intend buying, is.

 

[John @ home]

I was more thinking of how you can tell what the validity code for a ticket you buy, or intend buying, is.

Go to National Rail Enquiries.

Enter the train times and dates for the single or return journey you are considering. When you complete the matrix with your chosen train times for the outward and (if appropriate) return leg(s) of your journey, a blue box entitled "Tickets" is below the set of train times. Above "Buy" in that box is your suggested ticket type. Clicking on that takes you to the terms & conditions for that ticket type. Towards the bottom of that page, there are options to "view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected" or to "view the complete list of 'Validity Codes' applicable to the ticket type that you have selected".

 

[Bedpan]

Execllent, thanks very much John@Home. I'll next be travelling to Esher in early December and see that the ticlet code is TS, so I can use it in the evening peak. I don't know whether to be grateful or fuming about that (see post 20). As I'll be finishing there at around 4ish, its great news that that I won't have to hang around London until after 7, but then I think of all the other times I have hung around needlessly thanks to FCC and their incorrectly worded information concerning off peak restrictions in their successive timetables. At least things don't seem to have got any worse sincer a certain female left them.