FCC Notice Of Intention To Prosecute - Advice Required Please

It is? I read through thread :roll::roll: at all the posts about season tickets to boundary zones and otherwise implying that FCC might have even a rotten wooden leg to stand on.

Didn't notice any ambulance chasing though.

 

Blumming eck, there's a lot of rubbish in this thread.

Firstly, your tickets are valid under clause 19a, which reads "they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use)". The _station(s) where one ticket ends and the other starts are irrelevant.

Do I understand correctly (from the highlighted paragraph) that a written discussion took place AFTER the incident with the RPI, in which the argument of whether Mill Hill Broadway or Hendon was the last station in zone 4?

If so, surely you simply need to refer to this dialogue, and someone will realise that you must have had two tickets.

Were you given any paperwork by the RPI?

 

Yea, I completely understand that. But if it got to the point where it did have devastating consequences, then fair enough I would understand that 100%.

But as it stands currently

1) The TOC hasn't even replied about it being a mistake
2) Although, without a doubt it was a stressful time for the OP, he hasn't lost anything over the situation.

If someone tried pushing for compo over that, when it's clearly not the TOCs fault, just an individual missing something, I think would be silly, and would be laughed at. I'm not a law expert, at all, so could be wrong completely, and sorry, I just hate this countries blame culture. Just seems everyone is out to make money at other peoples expense. And thinking about writing to the TOC to get the guard retrained? Come on, people make mistakes, yes it could of been serious, it might not of even been the guard

It was mainly the end of the 1st/start of the second page (well, that's how it's displayed on tapatalk!), when someone started mentioned defamation (sp?), and compensation?!

 

I find it very strange that the F.C.C. inspector didn't refer to a Map of travelcard zones, a quick look shows that Hendon station on the Midland mainline, is in both Zones 3 & 4, but just to think what has been said before he didn't know of section 19a of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
So it would seem training is an issue! Or is the passenger now expected to carry a copy of the Conditions of Carriage, and a travelcard zone map.

 

Waldgrun, the RPI may not have had access to the relevant maps at the time he made his (incorrect) call.

I fully expect this to end in the OP's favour. The best thing he can do is keep calm, and deal with FCC rationally and sensibly. A simple articulate letter should be all that's needed to resolve the matter; there is no need for us to rant on here (for once!).

 

Every FCC RPI I've seen has had a laminated zonal map with them.

 

Dont even get me started on this. Thats a terrible idea and one which my TOC wants to do. This is not something myself nor my colleagues want. No i dont work for FCC and tbh ive never seen anything on this forum to suggest any of my colleagues have been a tit.

Back to the OP i wouldnt worry too much if FCC have written to you confirming your combination is valid.

 

Not at all. The OP was threatened with legal action for ticketless travel when they had correct tickets. Responding to that allegation and ensuring it goes no further has a cost in time - and it's entirely within the OP's right to express his displeasure that he has been so inconvenienced.

I should point out that I'm not offering legal advice on whether the OP is entitled to compensation by law - I'm saying that I would personally ask that the TOC offers me something as a gesture of goodwill to apologise for their mistake.

 

Let's just make sure that the threat of prosecution goes away first, and then deal with trying to elicit what I believe they call a 'goodwill gesture' afterwards!!!!

 

There's the 'P' word again. FirstGroup managers seem to at least be consistent in committing it.

 

I don't see why they both can't be done at the same time. If anything, customer services becoming involved might force the prosecutions department in to action.

 

Only just noticed this thread. Have since spoken to the OP via PM. Everyone here knows the story by now

I wonder if it is the same RPI? Now working out of Kentish Town! Did he wear a name badge? Probably not.

FCC even issued a bulletin using this very example (station to Z456 and Z123) soon after my incident. No wonder they quickly agreed it was a valid combination, but the RPI might have changed things to 'only seeing one ticket' after realising the mistake.

In which case, when his (or her) case falls apart, I'd hope for a bit more than retraining.

 

Have you made any progress in getting this sorted out at all?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or it might get their backs up. From personal experience, Customer Relations often get told to keep their noses out of anything involving a prosecution in any case - although it doesn't apply in this case, a wrong move from CR could jeopardise a legitimate prosecution. It's far better for the OP to get in contact with the prosecution team, maybe even by telephone, resolve the matter, and then go to CR and point out the time and energy he's had to put in. Getting people's backs up, while it may make you feel like the big man, it doesn't always get you the result you were hoping for.

 

G---- is someone else. Funny how some revenue staff think there is some gap between the zone edges. In my case I was told the only way to make my combination valid was an annual Hatfield-456, an annual Z34 ticket (do these even exist?) and my Oyster Z123. Then I was fully covered at the joins.

And he was deadly serious. And he was promoted to the best-of-the-best fraud investigation team following other serious errors. And now he is training to become a driver for FCC!!

Personally, I think if a letter to prosecutions doesn't work then skip customer services and go higher - all the way to the top if needed. They can (and in my case did) stop this nonsense before they make themselves look very stupid. They might even have a word with G---- to suggest against lying in court about only having been shown one ticket.

To be fair to FCC, I doubt management would turn a blind eye to this sort of thing.

 

Good result Duncan, and it's now up to you if you want to push for some travel vouchers or other goodwill gesture I guess. I guess it says a lot for our ticketing system when even the staff get it wrong! I'm pleased that FCC have recognised the cock up.

 

Nice questions, and ones that they could only answer if they put together a proper ticket training course for staff! It's a radical concept I know......

 

Excellent result and well done.

 

Great news. However, they still have a member of staff willing to argue the validity of two tickets and later attempt to prosecute by saying you only had one.

I hope they will deal with that, or other people are bound to be affected.

 

I'm a bit worried that the above 5 posts have misread the timescales here.

I think the email text duncanp is quoting in post #46 above might be the same email he mentions in the very first post of this thread, ie FCC's original admission there was no problem with the combination.

Perhaps he could clarify the date of the email and that it predates the latest letter that he's received?

 

The key question in my mind is this: where does the burden of proof lie when the customer claims one thing and the TOC another?

My feeling is that FCC will drop this when faced with the evidence that duncanp holds a valid combination of tickets and has obviously been travelling using these tickets for some time (given the confirmation email)

I don't believe this is the case - the time, date and location (?) of the most recent pass through a barrier is recorded on the ticket, but this is overwritten each time the ticket is used.

 

CCTV recording is unlikely to be kept more than 7 days unless there was an assault or damage incident at the time, it's not intended for this situation.

 

I would imagine the written statement at the time of the incident from a trained person carries most of the burden of proof required by FCC.

 

To me, that is the worrying part about this kind of allegation. In jonmorris' case it was a clearcut misinterpretation of the rules, here the OP's version of events is very similar but the FCC RPI is claiming there was only one ticket.

I'm very much prepared to take the OP's account at face value but just how do you prove you travelled on that season ticket on that day? It's ok to talk about CCTV and barriers but we know there are ways round these things, and regular travellers do forget tickets from time to time. We also know TOCs are very good at standing up for their own staff in preference to customers when they want to.

 

I would hope normal 'presumption of innocence' applies and it would be for FCC to prove their case 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

 

Well done swt-passenger, and I'm just off to get my coat.

So, have you contacted FCC Duncan to put this one to bed?