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FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

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mrcheek

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Paying a first class fare does not guarantee any seat, first or standard. Any first class ticket only gives permission to travel in first class, not to automatically get a seat.

which has precisely nothing to do with the point being made.
 

EltonRoad

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Question to cessna: are you any better off now than when you first posted? Has this thread helped you in any way?
 

yorksrob

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Ah, another stereotype. As Mumrar said earlier you can't stereotype people as 'fare dodgers'.

And surely compartments are better for carrying "unruly" passengers (assuming by unruly you probably mean making a noise? If not, what else do they do?) because it keeps them from disturbing other passengers?

Indeed, I have to agree. And the other bonus is that standard class passengers walking down the train to find the buffet car/loo/correct part of the train are seperated off from 1st by a wall.

In all my years of compartment travel (usually in the standard ones admittedly) I've only been forced to move due to unruly behaviour once (and I firmly blame society rather than the design of the CIG). I've found saloon stock to be just as susceptible to such things.
 

cessna

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I'm not sure if it has really, EltonRoad. Most people seem to either ignore what I've been saying or just don't read my posts properly.
 

nedchester

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I'm not sure if it has really, EltonRoad. Most people seem to either ignore what I've been saying or just don't read my posts properly.

I think the best thing is to get on the phone tomorrow to FCC to try and clear this up?
 

yorkie

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I'm not sure if it has really, EltonRoad. Most people seem to either ignore what I've been saying or just don't read my posts properly.
I'd hope that replies by some of us were helpful! Tell you what, give FCC a ring and if you wish to discuss their answer, contact me. I'll send you a PM.
 

cessna

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I'd hope that replies by some of us were helpful! Tell you what, give FCC a ring and if you wish to discuss their answer, contact me. I'll send you a PM.

No I agree, some of you guys have been great and I really appreciate your help, so thanks a lot!
 

Tom C

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Please forgive me for not going through 12 pages but based on the original question.....

When you were stopped in 1st Class, were you offered a PF? If it should be £20 or double the FIRST CLASS single fare from whereever you came from to the next station. If you refused to pay at least the FDS then the inspector will take your details, then caution you and question you. The report will then be given to you to sign, it is then passed on for processing. AT THAT POINT there is nothing to pay.

If you were given a Penalty Fare notice then you have 21 days to pay whatever is remaining on the slip.
 

yorkie

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Tom C, thanks for that.

Basically he expected to be billed for a PF, however instead of receiving a bill he has received a letter saying they intend to prosecute.

If he had been issued an MG11 would he be told of this fact, and would he receive a receipt of some sort?

He was given nothing at the time, and all he got through the post now is a letter saying he is being prosecuted for not paying - despite being willing to pay.
 

jon0844

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Penalty fares are not fines, and are used when no legal basis for prosecuting fare evasion exists, prosecution is deemed too drastic and costly, or is unlikely to result in conviction..

When FCC are supported by police, they do tend to act a lot more severely than when on their own. Police back-up is somewhat rare and usually part of a specific, planned, sting.

On these occasions they will usually start with the first class section, and they do this because they are trying to protect people who pay extra for first class tickets and DO get upset (rightly) when people upgrade themselves.

As I quite regularly take the 0036 or 0136 train, you'll usually find first class is near full (the rest of the train isn't) perhaps because people are assuming they'll get away with it, or that they've had one too many and have a sense of bravado - but either way, I am perfectly happy for these people to be prosecuted and not simply moved on as happens all too often when RPIs are on their own. To me, they may as well not bother at night if they're too scared to get involved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Last time I traveled on a FCC 365 (haven't read the full details of this problem) the sliding doors into the FC compartment have a huge sign on them explaining that this area is for FC tickets holders and a brief description of the penalties should you not comply.

Yes, and they have more than one sticker per door - presumably to ensure one sticker is at eye level for anyone walking in.

On the 317s it's a little harder given the doors are likely to be fully open (but there ARE doors) and it's not as obvious - but it is still possible to tell just by looking around on the seats or the windows. Not that this train should have been a 317 on the 0036. That and the last train I believe are always 365s.

Anyway, given the OP said he knew it was FC it doesn't really matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But how can you pay when you don't know who you're actually supposed to be paying and have been given no instructions on what you're supposed to do?

When I got my penalty fare from FCC I was given a bit of paper that had everything detailed on it. For all the faults of the over zealous RPI that issued it, he DID point out how to appeal (or indeed, how to pay).

The OP must have refused this and been given a notice of intended prosecution. Given the police support, I find it hard to believe this was done if the OP wanted to pay the penalty fare (or double the first class fare).
 
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Ferret

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Jon - how do we know he was given the option of a PF? The OP has admitted he was in breach of Byelaw 19, and the presence of BTP would suggest that they were having a purge. Like I've said previously, I really feel that the OP is in the merde, and should consider getting proper legal advice and/or representation.
 

jon0844

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I haven't got a clue but the OP is now saying he wanted to pay the PF, which suggests they refused to offer that option and opted for the legal route. Sounds possible, as I see them operating differently when backed up with police, but at the same time I am not convinced they'd immediately go down this route for someone who upgraded themselves to first class. Not that I'd be against that, as it might actually serve as a deterrent, but it just seems rather unlikely.

I'm sure they'd have offered the £82 fare, which saves all the statements and future action, and the OP must have flatly refused. Now, having sobered up, he has realised that it would have been sensible to pay up.

What about the other option (depending on when caught) which would have been to pay up to the next station and move back into standard for the remainder of the journey? Why wouldn't the RPI have offered that? Or did the OP also claim that he was going to stay in first class all the way to Peterborough leaving them no choice, given that they would move on and he'd continue to sit there?

I wonder if a bit of bravado brought on my alcohol is to blame for all of this?

Contacting FCC as soon as possible and explaining the situation, perhaps even mentioning the alcohol, might see them settle as a gesture of goodwill. Waiting for a court appearance date will undoubtedly make this a very expensive experience.

By the way, in the last week, I've had ticket checks on every single journey to work (and different trains at different times on each day) so they do seem to be very pro-active at the moment. As long as they ensure their RPIs are fully trained and play by the rules, I have no problem with this and suspect people who are paying a lot of money (and it won't be long until we're told fares will rise next year) are going to be very happy.
 
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Ferret

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I guess that's equally plausible as my suggestion of a purge Jon! I think Merseyrail have had a purge in the past with things like feet on seats so it does happen. I guess we'll never know!
 

cessna

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Jon, why do you assume that alcohol was involved? I didn't have anything to drink that day at all.
 

jon0844

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Really? So why did you upgrade yourself to first class if you were fully aware of the situation? I thought alcohol might have been helpful as mitigating circumstances! (and my assumption must reflect badly on me, given that I have usually consumed at least some drink when using those trains!).

Did they give you the option to pay up to the next stop and move back to standard class? I assume that you didn't want to pay the full price to Peterborough when there must have been countless seats in standard class on the train at that time.

If I ever travel on the 2336, 0036 or 0136 trains and can't get a seat then I'll be sure to post it on here. The only exception might be New Year.
 

Greenback

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Going back to the original post:

The other week I took a First Capital Connect train from Kings Cross to Peterborough, the 00:36 service. I had a standard class ticket and as I boarded the train I grabbed the first seat that came to view, a first class seat. I knew it was first class and I know I was in the wrong but often taking late trains I didn't expect a ticket inspector to come through the train. Well he did, with a few British Transport cops. I was told I would be issued a penalty fare in the region of £82 (I can't remember the exact amount). I initially said I wouldn't pay but after hearing my options of either going to court or paying the fine I choose to pay the fine.

I was told that I would have three weeks to pay the fine and the copper and inspector took down my details. Now I've just receieved a letter telling me FCC intend to take me to court.

What the hell is going on here? I phoned them up straight away and was told penalty fares are normally paid on the spot. Why was I not informed of this on the train.

I've sent the enclosed form back telling them my side of the story.

Does anyone know what the likely otcome is? The last thing I wanted was for this to go to court.

Cheers

I think one of the things that must have annoyed some people at the start of the thread was the fact that cessna said they were well aware they were in First Class, and had done it before because they didn't expect their ticket to be checked.

In those circumstances, I don't think anyone can complain if their ticket is checked! But to be fair, that is not what cessna is doing. They seem pretty clear that they refused to pay, but after being told the option was to pay or go to court, they changed their mind and opted to pay the PF. If we accept this, then it is unreasonable for the OP not to have been sent or given details of the amount to be paid, and how to pay it.

The only other explanation is that there must have been some misunderstanding involved, possibly due to the late hour and alcohol (not that I want to assume that anyone travelling late at night is under the influence, I;ve travelled many times afte rmidnight completely sober!).

It does sound as though FCC are having a bit of a crackdown. I'd imagine most, if not all, honest passengers would agree with this. One question I have at the end of all this, though, is how much of a deterrent will the £82 penalty are to the OP in future? Will they continue to take a chance in FC, or will they be more wary of the financial penalty and possible court action? In other words, do PF's actually work better than I think they do?!

I've now seen cessna's post that he hadn't had anything alcoholic to drink! So why hasn't he been allowed to pay?
 

jon0844

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Well the OP is concerned about the criminal record bit, which suggests that THIS is the deterrent and not the penalty fare (hence now wanting to pay this, or anything, to avoid a court appearance).

So, on that basis, FCC (and other TOCs) should perhaps be using this route more often. They do state clearly on the stickers that this may happen, so nobody should be that surprised.
 

Greenback

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Yes, that's what Iw anted to know really, I suppose. I've always thought that the money aspect wasn't much of a deterrent, particularly if someone travels without a ticket at all and gets caught 5 or 10% of the time.
 

EltonRoad

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There is one thing I'm still not clear about. Cessna has admitted on here to knowing he shouldn't have been in First Class, but did you actually admit to the guard at any point that you "knew" you were in the wrong?

If so, perhaps this explains why you are being prosecuted.

But even if you did admit this, it still seems odd that you were told you would have three weeks to pay a Penalty Fare and none has since materialised.

---

One thing I've noticed on here is that so many people make so many assumptions when trying to explain what's going on. If you are making an assumption, at least acknowledge that you might be wrong, rather than carrying on as though the OP was drunk, "flatly refusing" to pay, or whatever, none of which concur with what he has actually said.
 
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jon0844

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I really did think that alcohol may have explained what happened, and the subsequent confusion. If totally sober, it should be quite easy to give a detailed account of what happened and what was said.

The assumption must say a lot about me I guess!
 

Death

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As my last post aimed at Cessna and the advice within got swamped under all the PF and Bylaw froth, I've moved the text below over from Post #505412 to make sure that he manages to observe and take note of it. :)
[I was given] Not a thing. I was a bit surprised to be honest, but having never been in that situation before I guessed that was just how they did things.
I signed the paper form the inspector was filling out. The police officer also took down my details on his little electronic thingy.
That's rather odd, mind ye. When SWT issued me with a PF years ago as previously described, the RPI filled in the PFN (Which was taken from a carbonised PFN book thingy) which I then signed, and I was given the top (White) copy for my reference. On the reverse of the PFN that I received was a clear outline of the PF procedure, advice on how to pay (Along with a payment slip) and other PF relevant information - Including an outline of my rights, and those of the TOC.

If you were indeed issued with a Penalty Fare (Which thy last post does throw into doubt, in my mind) then ye would've had to have been issued with a similar Penalty Fare Notice as described above for the PF to actually be valid...Given that the PFN details how/when to pay, along with a summary of thy rights to appeal etc.

Given that ye received NO PFN and insted received a verbal outline of rights from the Police Counstable in attendance, it sounds to me like - And I do hate to suggest this - That ye could have been marked for summary prosecution rather than PF'd! :!::shock:

I don't know how the NCoC and Railway Bylaws relate to this sort of thing...But does anyone know if TOCs have the right to summarily prosecute someone in this manner, and - If so - What is the correct procedure for such a prosecution? I'm no expert in these matters at all, but it sounds to me like:
  1. Cessna has not been given the advice that he has every legal right to be given, and should have received something at the time to tell him what he was being PF'd/charged with.
  2. If this was supposed to be the issuance of a PF on Cessna, then FCC completely screwed it up...Which means that Cessna might be able to get off-the-hook because FCC havn't followed due procedure.
Finally though, it's just struck me that £80 is the usual value of a standard fixed penalty notice issued by the Police for less serious offences (Littering, minor disorder, urinating in public etc) so it's possible that we're all getting confused, and what Cessna has been issued with is actually a Police Fixed-Penalty Notice (Maybe for being drunk & disorderly?) and not an FCC PFN as we're all thinking. :!:

Cessna: My advice to ye at this stage would be to go to thy local Police station, give them thy details (Name, addr etc - Take ID), explain that ye had involvement with the Police on that night and that ye can't remember what happened...But ye know that something was issued against ye, and that ye were cautioned. Ask them to look up thy details in the Police database and for them to tell ye if there are any fines/actions outstanding. If so, ask them to explain to ye how exactly ye should proceed.
Caution: Although this should hopefully not be the case...IF the Police consider ye a "flight risk" or a warrant has been issued in relation to the notified court action, it's possible that ye could be arrested at time of enquiry, so make some minor preperations just in case this does happen. If in doubt or uncertain (As ye intend to pay the fine in full and have no criminal intent, ye should have nothing to fear) consider calling thy solicitor first and make him/her aware of thy intentions. :)

Farewell for now, and please let us know if this is of any help and/or sheds any light on the situation! <D
>> Death <<
 
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TEW

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It probably isn't advisable to go the police station and say you don't remember anything because you were drunk, when you weren't. It would be much easier to tell the truth. It also seems unlikely that you would have an arrest warrant issued, that wouldn't happen unless you failed to show up in court. The defence of being intoxicated is not a smart one to use either unless you can prove that you were so drunk you were totally unaware of your actions. In law to be drunk is reckless and that fulfils the intent to commit the crime in a lot of cases.
 

Flamingo

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Also, it is a bylaw offence to be drunk on a train - bylaw 7 I believe from memory.
 

Death

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Forgive me but what post is everyone getting the information about the OP being drunk from?
I've got the feeling that those of us who have might've read Cessna's 3rd post a little too quickly. In it, he says:
Mate, I know I was stupid for sitting there. It was late, I was tired and I took the first seat I came too. I don't think I'm better than anyone, I take the train fairly often unfortunately and nearly always stand. This was a stupid little mistake.
Is it possible that some of us thought Fatigue + Late night departure = Alcofluence of Incohol? :?:
(This does include myself I have to admit, and I'll edit my shifted post above as appropriate in a minute. :))

It probably isn't advisable to go the police station and say you don't remember anything because you were drunk, when you weren't. It would be much easier to tell the truth.
That's always the best policy in any dealings with the Police, and I'll advise Cessna to avoid implying inebriation unless he genuinely was under the influence that night. :)

Also, it is a bylaw offence to be drunk on a train - bylaw 7 I believe from memory.
I'll certainly back that one up. I was once prevented from entering the platforms at Guildford by an RPI who cited Byelaw VII and pointed to an open can of lager that I had in my possession. Although of course there was nothing wrong in what I'd done, I did have to miss my intended departure whilst I left the station premesis to finish off my beer! :lol:<D
 

jon0844

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I wonder why cessna said;

Mate, I know I was stupid for sitting there. It was late, I was tired and I took the first seat I came too. I don't think I'm better than anyone, I take the train fairly often unfortunately and nearly always stand. This was a stupid little mistake.

First, why stand? There will always be seats.
Second, if it WAS a 317 then first class is in the middle so why were these the first seats you came to? You must have gone by loads!

Now, this morning, I was in first class (declassified though) and did look around and notice that on some 317s they only have the old-school 1st stickers on the windows on each side of the compartment. There was nothing on ANY window (as if they'd recently replaced the anti-etching film perhaps?) and most of the antimacassars were missing, two of which had been stuck to the wall!

So, if the circumstances were right (and boy do there have to be lots of coincidences) then you might just be able to argue that you might mistakenly think it was standard class if people were standing on both sides of the doorway.

On a 317, FCC could (and should) make it as obvious as it is on a 365 or 321. I accept that some of the 317s may be better marked than others. I doubt the OP would remember which one he was on! Nor would it likely be recorded on any paperwork, although FCC (or the OP if attending court) could perhaps find out the train that ran that night and seek to inspect how clearly marked it was. Of course, he has admitted (on here at least) that he knew all along.
 
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