FCC ticketing error in Guardian

[Squaddie]

The Guardian's consumer affairs champion takes on the case of a reader who was prosecuted after he was sold the wrong ticket by an FCC booking office clerk.

I was travelling to St Albans from Kentish Town in London, and went to the ticket office and asked for a young person's return. On the train, a ticket inspector informed me that my ticket was invalid.

Apparently, when buying my ticket I had received a "zonal" London ticket and not the return to St Albans I'd asked for. I explained that I had gone to the man at the office, not a ticket machine, and that I trusted he had given me the correct ticket.

This cut no ice with the inspector and he asked me to pay for the new ticket on top of a fine.

Luckily, the Guardian managed to get FCC to change their mind:

This is a shocking story and since writing to us, you have attended the first court hearing, which was adjourned while First Capital Connect decided whether to pursue the case.

The inspector would have known your ticket had come from one of the ticket offices but still chose to fine you. Rail companies that pursue customers who bought tickets in good faith are a disgrace, particularly when they threaten customers with a criminal record with all the consequences that entails. In this case it is over a mere 90p. Small wonder you are thoroughly disillusioned with the train system.

Happily, when we raised the case with First Capital Connect it moved fast and has now withdrawn the court action. To say sorry, it is sending you a pair of first class train tickets for a journey of your choice. You are understandably extremely relieved.

Full article here.

 

[bb21]

One man's word against the other I guess.

Lesson #22173: Always check the ticket you have been sold.

 

[soil]

Lesson #22174: complain effectively

 

[Johnny_w]

Well, I'm leaning toward the customer on this one... If I go to a ticket office then I trust that the officer/clerk/whatever behind the glass understands my requirements and can Issue a ticket correctly?

As quoted above, "The inspector would have known your ticket had come from one of the ticket offices but still chose to fine you. Rail companies that pursue customers who bought tickets in good faith are a disgrace"

JW

 

[island]

Well, I'm leaning toward the customer on this one... If I go to a ticket office then I trust that the officer/clerk/whatever behind the glass understands my requirements and can Issue a ticket correctly?

As quoted above, "The inspector would have known your ticket had come from one of the ticket offices but still chose to fine you. Rail companies that pursue customers who bought tickets in good faith are a disgrace"

JW

While the customer seems to have been correct in this situation, the ticket coming from a booking office means nothing as the customer could have asked for a Travelcard and not banked on there being barriers at the other end...

 

[Johnny_w]

While the customer seems to have been correct in this situation, the ticket coming from a booking office means nothing as the customer could have asked for a Travelcard and not banked on there being barriers at the other end...

Fair comment Island..... I often trip myself up because I tend to consider
most people as honest.

Having said that how does that stand in law [not trying to be argumentative] because it *could* be a criminal court-thingie, but does the law not take the basic stand of 'innocent until proved'

Or have I been watching too much Law&Order again

JW

 

[bakerstreet]

This is further muddied by the opening line - note he travelled from Kentish Town - where there are only LUL machines and LUL staff - so perhaps it's more understandable that there has been some confusion.
I usually avoid trying to get an NR ticket from a tube ticket office

 

[Harlesden]

I do not see any evidence in this story that the passenger was genuinely sold the wrong ticket insofar as there is no evidence that the passenger actually asked for a young person's return to St. Albans.
I happen to be a former London Underground Booking Office clerk and I was once asked by my employer to give formal evidence against a passenger who had been challenged at Stevenage with a Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard.
Stevenage is well outside the London zones and the passenger should have asked for a ticket to Stevanage but failed to do so and I had his cheque in my cash drawer with his signature on it - a cheque for the amount of the Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard he had asked me for. This was back in the mid-1990's when cheques for small amounts (such as for a one day zonal ticket) were frowned upon by LUL supervisory staff and were thus rarely accepted and so easily remembered.
The writer of this article seems to have taken the passenger's story at face value whereas I can say most definitely that there are considerably more lying deceitful passengers than there are totally honest passengers. People totally willing to take risks to either pay less than they should or pay nothing at all.
Today's TOC's (Train Operating Companies) do not employ an army of Revenue Protection Inspectors for fun. They are needed because a substantial number of passengers are inherently dishonest.

 

[ainsworth74]

The writer of this article seems to have taken the passenger's story at face value whereas I can say most definitely that there are considerably more lying deceitful passengers than there are totally honest passengers.

Source?

 

[rdwarr]

...whereas I can say most definitely that there are considerably more lying deceitful passengers than there are totally honest passengers.

I find that extremely offensive. I suggest you travel on one of the trains that I do and pick out the few honest passengers from the hundreds of others who, despite being "lying and deceitful" have purchased the same season tickets.

 

[RJ]

This is a situation where it cannot be proven either way what was asked for at the point of purchase. It's possible the passenger could have asked for a Travelcard under the wrongful assumption it was valid to St Albans. It is also possible the clerk may have made a mistake in issuing the ticket.

Some stations probably have regular issues with holders of inboundary Travelcards turning up - I suspect Slough, Epsom, St Albans, Potters Bar, Gatwick Airport, Shenfield and Watford Junction may be among them. The validity of Travelcards is well advertised - so do staff pass everyone who turns up with an invalid Travelcard?

 

[island]

Some stations probably have regular issues with holders of inboundary Travelcards turning up - I suspect Slough, Epsom, St Albans, Potters Bar, Gatwick Airport, Shenfield and Watford Junction may be among them.

Dartford and Greenhithe are also prime locations.

 

[Tibbs]

I do not see any evidence in this story that the passenger was genuinely sold the wrong ticket insofar as there is no evidence that the passenger actually asked for a young person's return to St. Albans.
I happen to be a former London Underground Booking Office clerk and I was once asked by my employer to give formal evidence against a passenger who had been challenged at Stevenage with a Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard.
Stevenage is well outside the London zones and the passenger should have asked for a ticket to Stevanage but failed to do so and I had his cheque in my cash drawer with his signature on it - a cheque for the amount of the Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard he had asked me for. This was back in the mid-1990's when cheques for small amounts (such as for a one day zonal ticket) were frowned upon by LUL supervisory staff and were thus rarely accepted and so easily remembered.
The writer of this article seems to have taken the passenger's story at face value whereas I can say most definitely that there are considerably more lying deceitful passengers than there are totally honest passengers. People totally willing to take risks to either pay less than they should or pay nothing at all.
Today's TOC's (Train Operating Companies) do not employ an army of Revenue Protection Inspectors for fun. They are needed because a substantial number of passengers are inherently dishonest.

So your reasoning is that because one person, once, who was in a similar situation to this one behaved dishonestly, that automatically means this person was dishonest? Breathtaking.

And as for most people being dishonest? I pity you, that you have such a jaded and cynical view of the world.

 

[jon0844]

Dartford and Greenhithe are also prime locations.

And Hatfield. People with paper Travelcards or Oyster PAYG.

And I've heard many say they were told it was valid. Not sure who told them though.. a mate, friend of a friend or someone in a ticket office... but that's the defence to try and avoid the penalty. And why wouldn't they?

And as for most people being dishonest? I pity you, that you have such a jaded and cynical view of the world.

Sadly, that's often the case.

I'm not revenue staff. Heck, I'm not even staff. However, it's given me one advantage that rail staff don't have - being around to listen to what happens AFTER someone is dealt with.

I can't remember how many times someone has had a penalty fare on a train, and then talked to their mate afterwards about how they usually got away with it and similar. That sort of thing will make anyone cynical, because it's quite frequent that these people blag their way out of things when they're being totally deceitful.

Of course, it's vital not to jump to conclusions in any individual case - but you can't just naively take everything at face value and not at least question or investigate the facts. It's not a bad thing, or offensive, to question what someone says either. It's about establishing the truth.

 

[Tibbs]

Of course, it's vital not to jump to conclusions in any individual case - but you can't just naively take everything at face value and not at least question or investigate the facts. It's not a bad thing, or offensive, to question what someone says either. It's about establishing the truth.

There's a massive difference between not taking something at face value and assuming someone is dishonest and coming to that conclusion (as Harlesden seems to have done) that the person is guilty based on a single similar situation that happened years ago.

 

[jon0844]

Ultimately, the story is meaningless because nobody knows if the person was telling the truth or not.

Given how common it is for people to venture beyond zone 6 and have problems, it's quite feasible that someone asked for a Travelcard and assumed it was valid - or just thought about trying it on. When stopped, it was a case of own up to the mistake or claim to have been missold the ticket.

So many variables, that I'm surprised a paper would even get involved with the story unless it was just an easy attack on a TOC.

The only thing I would say is that I always look at my tickets when I'm given them, simply because I have been given the wrong tickets on more than one occasion (so, that does confirm staff do get things wrong) and you should do so just as much as checking your change, or that you're being charged the correct amount when paying by card.

 

[RJ]

So many variables, that I'm surprised a paper would even get involved with the story unless it was just an easy attack on a TOC.

But now they'll have to put up with lots of people wanting them to get them out a scramble!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Stevenage is well outside the London zones and the passenger should have asked for a ticket to Stevanage but failed to do so and I had his cheque in my cash drawer with his signature on it - a cheque for the amount of the Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard he had asked me for.

That doesn't prove anything. The cheque would be for the amount of the Z1-6 Travelcard because that's what you sold him. It doesn't prove anything about whether the passenger was dishonest or you screwed up.

Today's TOC's (Train Operating Companies) do not employ an army of Revenue Protection Inspectors for fun. They are needed because a substantial number of passengers are inherently dishonest.

And a substantial number of booking clerks make mistakes. I've seen plenty of cock ups with FCC in my time, including being sold an off peak return to Gatwick at West Hampstead Thameslink when I specifically asked for the anytime return as I was travelling at peak time. Luckily I noticed and got it fixed, but many people wouldn't notice right up until they get the £80 Penalty Fare at the other end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But now they'll have to put up with lots of people wanting them to get them out a scramble!

The column is Consumer Champions, its for people who haven't been able to get anywhere complaining through the normal channels.

In this case, that'll be anyone who's ever had to deal with the "independent and impartial" TOC stooges at IPFAS. You'll feel their pain, I'm sure!

 

[bb21]

I've seen plenty of cock ups with FCC in my time, including being sold an off peak return to Gatwick at West Hampstead Thameslink when I specifically asked for the anytime return as I was travelling at peak time. Luckily I noticed and got it fixed, but many people wouldn't notice right up until they get the £80 Penalty Fare at the other end.

A Penalty Fare would not have been applicable, but yes I get your point.

 

[poshfan]

It seems to me that the vast majority of people would have a look at the tickets they had just bought, so on balance I think the customer was probably trying it on. But there's no evidence, it's just one person's word against another, which makes the Guardian's attitude seems a bit odd, to be automatically assuming the customer is right and the ticket seller in the wrong when there is no evidence in either direction.
So what do you do in a case like this when there is no evidence either way? Personally I think the onus has to be on the customer to check the tickets they have just been given, otherwise it's open season for deliberately buying cheap tickets in the hope of getting away with it, with an easy get out of claiming to have been sold the wrong one if caught.

 

[island]

And Hatfield. People with paper Travelcards or Oyster PAYG.

And I've heard many say they were told it was valid. Not sure who told them though.. a mate, friend of a friend or someone in a ticket office

It was obviously the bloke on the platform, innit?

 

[jon0844]

It seems to me that the vast majority of people would have a look at the tickets they had just bought, so on balance I think the customer was probably trying it on. But there's no evidence, it's just one person's word against another, which makes the Guardian's attitude seems a bit odd, to be automatically assuming the customer is right and the ticket seller in the wrong when there is no evidence in either direction.
So what do you do in a case like this when there is no evidence either way? Personally I think the onus has to be on the customer to check the tickets they have just been given, otherwise it's open season for deliberately buying cheap tickets in the hope of getting away with it, with an easy get out of claiming to have been sold the wrong one if caught.

That's why I'm surprised the paper gave it any coverage at all, unless the person had secretly recorded or filmed the transaction or there was an independent witness to prove the transaction took place as described.

There are many open and shut cases worth reporting, but where does it end if papers just pick and choose who to believe on a story that could be 100% true, 100% false or something in between?

In this case, there's the fact that the ticket was (mis)sold at a London Underground operated station, yet the paper is obviously putting all the blame on First Capital Connect. And, as we know, it's now common practice for many companies to fold very quickly when approached by the media - rather than dare com back and say that there's no proof of it (or LUL in this case) having made a mistake.

It's all about positive PR these days.

And I say this as someone who as editor of a magazine had to deal with lots of people complaining to a company and sending us a copy in the hope that we'd intervene.

 

[alastair]

I do not see any evidence in this story that the passenger was genuinely sold the wrong ticket insofar as there is no evidence that the passenger actually asked for a young person's return to St. Albans.
I happen to be a former London Underground Booking Office clerk and I was once asked by my employer to give formal evidence against a passenger who had been challenged at Stevenage with a Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard.
Stevenage is well outside the London zones and the passenger should have asked for a ticket to Stevanage but failed to do so and I had his cheque in my cash drawer with his signature on it - a cheque for the amount of the Zones 1-6 One-Day TravelCard he had asked me for. This was back in the mid-1990's when cheques for small amounts (such as for a one day zonal ticket) were frowned upon by LUL supervisory staff and were thus rarely accepted and so easily remembered.
The writer of this article seems to have taken the passenger's story at face value whereas I can say most definitely that there are considerably more lying deceitful passengers than there are totally honest passengers. People totally willing to take risks to either pay less than they should or pay nothing at all.
Today's TOC's (Train Operating Companies) do not employ an army of Revenue Protection Inspectors for fun. They are needed because a substantial number of passengers are inherently dishonest.

Just why do you feel able to "most definitely" make this offensive and highly contentious statement? And what is your definition of "substantial"? 25%?
I suggest you should justify or withdraw your statement

 

[londiscape]

This is a situation where it cannot be proven either way what was asked for at the point of purchase. It's possible the passenger could have asked for a Travelcard under the wrongful assumption it was valid to St Albans. It is also possible the clerk may have made a mistake in issuing the ticket.

Some stations probably have regular issues with holders of inboundary Travelcards turning up - I suspect Slough, Epsom, St Albans, Potters Bar, Gatwick Airport, Shenfield and Watford Junction may be among them. The validity of Travelcards is well advertised - so do staff pass everyone who turns up with an invalid Travelcard?

Epsom's a horrid one - the last Oyster zone on that line is Ewell West just before it, a tiny station. I got trapped with that one a few years ago due to ignorance, got let off by the gate line and just got the maximum oyster fare for failing to touch out. I got the impression the gate line staff were used to this happening! Made sure to pay closer attention to the London Connections map after that.

Would like to see the boundaries of Oyster extended to the nearest MAJOR staffed station on the outbound route, with announcements like 'this is the last station at which Oyster PAYG is valid, Oyster users please alight here if you need to purchase a new ticket to complete your journey' or words to that effect.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I always check tickets collected from a machine due to storis of missing tickets or the dreaded one that gets stuck up against the side.

However I have faith in the ticket man and don't inspect tickets from them. I won't from now on!

I will treat them with the same trust the passenger is afforded!

 

[Flamingo]

Some people shout and scream loudest when caught, in the hope that they will get off. Something it works, sometimes it doesn't.

in my experience, the involvement of "Customer Services" in the situation will invariably cause the company to roll over and play dead...

 

[LexyBoy]

I read the article before seeing this thread and my first thought was "hmm, I wonder how many posts there will be saying that the passenger asked for the Travelcard" :/

Ticket office staff do make mistakes and I can well believe this story. In my experience such mistakes result in paying more then you should but still having a valid ticket, but a few times I have (or nearly) been sold a ticket which wouldn't have done (e.g. day instead of period return, wrong-dated ticket).

This is why it's worth checking the tickets, and preferably knowing the price in advance so any difference is noticed before the tickets are even printed.

In any case, if a passenger asks for a ticket they should not be expected to have to double check that it is valid. Of course, it will always end up as one's word against the other, unless all TO sales have voice recorders as well...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Epsom's a horrid one - the last Oyster zone on that line is Ewell West just before it, a tiny station.

Epsom's even more confusing because Epsom Downs is in the London Travelcard zones.

 

[SETCommuter]

Passenger gets caught making a mistake and he is guilty as charged.

Staff member gets caught making a mistake and it's "Impossible to tell the truth of what happened".

i love this place....

 

[NSEFAN]

Passenger gets caught making a mistake and he is guilty as charged.

Staff member gets caught making a mistake and it's "Impossible to tell the truth of what happened".

i love this place....

Is the law not worded quite clearly? No/invalid ticket = offence committed? It's also fairly easy to prove that such a situation occurred.

Conversations between staff and passengers however aren't currently recorded, so it is literally a case of one person's word against another's when a passenger claims to have been sold the wrong ticket.