Feet on seats

[broadgage]

Feet on seats are to me a relatively minor matter. I would rather that people keep their feet on the floor, but greater concerns IMHO are, in order.
Will the train turn up.
Will I get a seat.
Will the seat be comfortable.
Will there be a buffet.
Will the heating or air conditioning be reasonable.
Feet on seats being of lesser importance than the above, in my view, though not completely unimportant.
I have been known to place my feet on a seat, but not regularly, and then only after protecting the seat with a newspaper or other suitable article, AND if the train is very lightly loaded.

 

[Train Maniac]

Im going to be that guy: As long as your shoes arent covered in absolute c**p, or sopping wet, and the train is relatively quiet i dont see what the big fuss about.
Youre not meant to, no, but people do a lot of things they are not meant to.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Personally I couldn’t care less if someone has their feet on a seat, provided the train is not busy and they’re not preventing anybody from sitting down. I’m amazed that some of the members on this forum leave the house with all their moaning about hygiene. I assume they take themselves a full disinfectant kit and tarpaulin to sit on when they’re out and about.

 

[al78]

Personally I couldn’t care less if someone has their feet on a seat, provided the train is not busy and they’re not preventing anybody from sitting down. I’m amazed that some of the members on this forum leave the house with all their moaning about hygiene. I assume they take themselves a full disinfectant kit and tarpaulin to sit on when they’re out and about.

I'm surprised at the minority who make ridiculous attempts to try and justify the unjusitfiable. Says more about them than those they try and call out.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's a bad habbit and I personally wouldn't want to sit on a seat where someone has put their shoes.

 

[bramling]

I'm surprised at the minority who make ridiculous attempts to try and justify the unjusitfiable. Says more about them than those they try and call out.

It is the minority. In all my time I’ve *never* seen a punter confront another punter whose had their feet on a seat. The most I’ve seen is the traditional British comment under the breath. Battles should be chosen wisely - it’s futile picking one which isn’t winnable for numerous reasons.

It’s not a sensible thing to do, and there’s numerous good reasons not to do it. If the Guildford incident doesn’t make that clear enough then I feel like my head is banging against a brick wall.

Some people should perhaps offer their services to the TOCs if it means so much. I’m sure the TOCs would be very pleased to have miracle-workers who can put right all manner of problem people just by telling them not to do something. Meanwhile, back in the real world...

And as has been pointed out numerous times, if clean hygienic seats are such a major issue for some people then rail travel (or public transport in general) isn’t for them. Many on here especially staff will be very aware of the state some trains are in when they reach depots in the evening, and it isn’t feet on seats that does this.

 

[Rob F]

I'm interested that the majority of responses to my original post have been about whether other passengers should say or do something about it but very little reaction to the fact that the on train staff member did nothing. I was actually VERY surprised that the girl's ticket was checked and absolutely nothing was said about her feet being on the seat.

 

[Antman]

We have “Railway Enforcement Officers”, who, while better than nothing, are a mixed bag in some respects.


For one thing they aren’t deployed properly. The “hot spots” on the DOO part of our network are where they are most needed, but they tend to remain clustered around the major stations which have a large staff presence in any case.


They are useful at “encouraging” stragglers to leave when platform staff are locking out vomit comets on a Friday/Saturday night, but don’t seem to be deployed to deal with the groups of assorted chavs, druggies and other idiots who frequent many of the quiet stations on our network, often to be seen at this time of year drinking and smoking in platform shelters!


While they look the part they are fundamentally limited because they lack the ability to arrest/taser/handcuff miscreants in the same way as police officers. If the subject is belligerent enough they will back away rather than use force.


I *believe* they have the same powers if revenue enforcement officers to interview under PACE etc. for bylaw violations but their ultimate sanction is to limply threaten to call the police if the subject refuses to answer their questions.




I hate to say it but you have a point here!

It’s a bit of a bum job for obvious reasons - some REOs are excellent but the job does seem to attract more than its fair share of people wanting a cushy number, or (worse!) those who enjoy wearing a uniform and wielding a bit of power.

I agree with you about railway enforcement officers being a mixed bag, some are very good and try and engage with passengers and assist with any problems whilst others do little more than stand around chatting amongst themselves.

 

[adamello]

Daily Mail test, is it really seen as fair and proportionate to charge people £50 for doing something they may do out of habit.. no not really and I doubt any TOC will want that reputation.
Northern's has been bad enough with their RPI approach to something we all agree should be enforced

 

[bramling]

Daily Mail test, is it really seen as fair and proportionate to charge people £50 for doing something they may do out of habit.. no not really and I doubt any TOC will want that reputation.
Northern's has been bad enough with their RPI approach to something we all agree should be enforced

Personally I think it’s absolutely fair and proportionate to charge people £50. Likewise I’d be more than happy for same to apply for people who do other things we all find irritating, like playing loud music or smoking.

The problem is more one of practicality - the railway has enough difficulty just getting fares revenue off some people.

 

[Sprinter107]

Anti social behaviour is getting worse on public transport, despite what people may say. I see it everyday, whereas, just a, few years ago it wasn't quite so frequent, certainly on the routes I work. People putting their feet on seats is an age old thing, ever since the year dot, it most certainly isnt a modern thing. To me, it just says a lot about the person really. Inconsiderate, and absolutely no respect for anyone else. I have had complains from passengers about their clothes being spoilt because of these people. In the winter, when the platform surfaces are wet, and the frost salt on the platform, and they still put their dirty wet feet all over the seat, which makes the seating moquette wet.
But, these days, you must think twice about confronting someone. Peoples attitudes have changed from a few years ago. Violence is a lot more prevalent now, you dont know if that person is carrying a weapon, or under the influence of sonething, which may make their behaviour extreme. As for a guard not saying something, well, maybe that's conflict avoidance.
I don't like these anti social behaviours, they can seem threatening and intimidating, especially late at night to people travelling on their own, but it can be dangerous to intervene sometines, so I think these days, its wise to think about things. However, if a passenger does complain to me about anti social behaviour, I always investigate it, but with the softly softly approach. Never a bull in a China shop attitude.

 

[Journeyman]

The problem is unless you are a higher authority, you have no way of enforcing anything on anybody, so all they have to do is tell you to eff off, then what? If you confront the wrong person they might decide to physically retaliate, are you prepared for that and prepared to finish what you start? If you are going to call out a stranger, first ask yourself what you are going to do if they get aggressive and/or abusive. Surrounding yourself in a cloak of righteousness won't protect you from a beating.

I do agree with you to an extent, but it is not as simple as "call someone out".

Agreed. I've recently politely asked people to stop playing music on phones on trains (this really, really irritates me), and I've come close to getting thumped for it, once by a guy who looked extremely mild-mannered and was wearing a suit on a crowded rush-hour train.

Much as it annoys me to see people get away with such behaviour, I really can't be bothered with risking my personal safety over things like this. If people are antisocial enough to smoke where they shouldn't, spread themselves over too much space, make too much noise, etc. etc., they're also likely to thump you when challenged, and I'll go and sit somewhere else.

As far as feet on seats are concerned, I'm really not that bothered. Why the hell is it a particular problem? Unless a seat is visibly dirty or wet, I have no qualms whatsoever about sitting on it.

 

[Journeyman]

It's a bad habbit and I personally wouldn't want to sit on a seat where someone has put their shoes.

In that case, you'd best not ever sit down on a train.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm interested that the majority of responses to my original post have been about whether other passengers should say or do something about it but very little reaction to the fact that the on train staff member did nothing. I was actually VERY surprised that the girl's ticket was checked and absolutely nothing was said about her feet being on the seat.

Most staff will be aware that a middle-aged man/young female argument could result in life-changing allegations being made against the middle-aged man.

 

[Camden]

I am a regular user of Merseyrail and see many, many people with their feet on seats, I have seen guards and ticket inspectors regularly ignore people with feet on seats. Although once recently I did see a guard ask people to remove their feet from the seats. No £50 fine imposed though.

I've only very infrequently seen it happen, and I also am a regular user of Merseyrail. The last time I saw it happen was on a late night service from Chester. The posh millenial female whose feet had been so erroneously placed spent only the first part of it in slovenly fashion, and the rest of the journey with her feet on the floor, whinging to her buddies about the write up she'd just rightly received from an enforcement officer.

Anti social behaviour is getting worse on public transport, despite what people may say. I see it everyday, whereas, just a, few years ago it wasn't quite so frequent, certainly on the routes I work. People putting their feet on seats is an age old thing, ever since the year dot, it most certainly isnt a modern thing. To me, it just says a lot about the person really. Inconsiderate, and absolutely no respect for anyone else. I have had complains from passengers about their clothes being spoilt because of these people. In the winter, when the platform surfaces are wet, and the frost salt on the platform, and they still put their dirty wet feet all over the seat, which makes the seating moquette wet.
But, these days, you must think twice about confronting someone. Peoples attitudes have changed from a few years ago. Violence is a lot more prevalent now, you dont know if that person is carrying a weapon, or under the influence of sonething, which may make their behaviour extreme. As for a guard not saying something, well, maybe that's conflict avoidance.
I don't like these anti social behaviours, they can seem threatening and intimidating, especially late at night to people travelling on their own, but it can be dangerous to intervene sometines, so I think these days, its wise to think about things. However, if a passenger does complain to me about anti social behaviour, I always investigate it, but with the softly softly approach. Never a bull in a China shop attitude.

I agree to a point, and I'd never hold it against a guard for not putting themselves in danger. I have challenged guards before about inaction/tolerance of things which bother other passengers, but only where I think it was entirely reasonable and right that they act.

Aside from when it is obviously dangerous to speak up, I will speak up myself. I think it's right to, and that if we don't want things to just continually go downhill those of us who can then should. My requests are supported by law, their actions are not: In the instance that someone unexpectedly turns nasty to a polite request to be considerate, that shouldn't happen and so I personally decline to allow my own perfectly OK behaviour to be influenced by that risk. In a way, I think if we shy away because of only worry about reaction, we are allowing ourselves to be bullied into submission.

 

[Journeyman]

Aside from when it is obviously dangerous to speak up, I will speak up myself.

The thing is, you can't tell when it's obviously dangerous! Loads of people will punch your lights out for incredibly trivial things these days. Have you any idea how many people are tooled up?!?

I think it's right to, and that if we don't want things to just continually go downhill those of us who can then should. My requests are supported by law, their actions are not:

Fat lot of good that is if you end up dead in a pool of blood over something minor. Don't condemn me for not being willing to take that risk over some idiot being marginally antisocial.

 

[Camden]

With respect, is that really anything to do with you?

With respect, yes, in various ways.

However, I think a key point is that it's those who break the rules that have to justify themselves. Not me, on here, to those unreasonably irked by someone who chooses not to just sit by while people do things they shouldn't.

 

[Journeyman]

However, I think a key point is that it's those who break the rules that have to justify themselves. Not me, on here, to those unreasonably irked by someone who chooses not to just sit by while people do things they shouldn't.

I've had a couple of journeys made horrifically stressful by polite requests to people to turn music off, only for them to extremely aggressively turn on me with a tirade of abuse. I'm not putting myself through that again. Life is too short.

 

[Camden]

The thing is, you can't tell when it's obviously dangerous! Loads of people will punch your lights out for incredibly trivial things these days. Have you any idea how many people are tooled up?!?

Fat lot of good that is if you end up dead in a pool of blood over something minor. Don't condemn me for not being willing to take that risk over some idiot being marginally antisocial.

When I say "obviously dangerous", I mean there is a detectable danger. No detectable danger = I assume there is none.

By all means, it might mean there is a hidden danger, but I'm still here yet!

I've made it plain who I'd tick off for standing idly by, and when I wouldn't. If someone is a conductor and they won't tell a commuter or a youngster to take their feet off the seat while they're checking their ticket, they're in the wrong job.

 

[Sprinter107]

I've only very infrequently seen it happen, and I also am a regular user of Merseyrail. The last time I saw it happen was on a late night service from Chester. The posh millenial female whose feet had been so erroneously placed spent only the first part of it in slovenly fashion, and the rest of the journey with her feet on the floor, whinging to her buddies about the write up she'd just rightly received from an enforcement officer.


I agree to a point, and I'd never hold it against a guard for not putting themselves in danger. I have challenged guards before about inaction/tolerance of things which bother other passengers, but only where I think it was entirely reasonable and right that they act.

Aside from when it is obviously dangerous to speak up, I will speak up myself. I think it's right to, and that if we don't want things to just continually go downhill those of us who can then should. My requests are supported by law, their actions are not: In the instance that someone unexpectedly turns nasty to a polite request to be considerate, that shouldn't happen and so I personally decline to allow my own perfectly OK behaviour to be influenced by that risk. In a way, I think if we shy away because of only worry about reaction, we are allowing ourselves to be bullied into submission.

I agree with what you say to a point. Yes, maybe things have gone the way they have, because people wont say anything. But, you must also weigh up, if it's worth getting potentially life changing injuries, or even death, by confronting someone committing anti social behaviour. People can be very unpredictable these days through substance abuse, and other reasons. As I said previously, peoples attitudes are no longer what they were. Unlike a few years ago, some people would have no problem in assaulting you, possibly with a weapon.
Until the various TOCs have a zero tolerance policy, and put measures in place to stop this, then there is only so much that anyone can do. Also, unlike a few years ago, other people possibly wont come to your rescue if you need them to.

 

[Journeyman]

When I say "obviously dangerous", I mean there is a detectable danger. No detectable danger = I assume there is none.

By all means, it might mean there is a hidden danger, but I'm still here yet!

I've made it plain who I'd tick off for standing idly by, and when I wouldn't. If someone is a conductor and they won't tell a commuter or a youngster to take their feet off the seat while they're checking their ticket, they're in the wrong job.

Personally I think you're incredibly naïve, and taking stupid risks with your personal safety that are entirely unnecessary. Your assumption that there is no danger because you can't see any is very foolish indeed. I've been given shedloads of abuse by plenty of people who appear "respectable" in both personal and professional capacities, and life is far too short to invite more of it on yourself, with the risk of personal injury or death thrown in.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, maybe things have gone the way they have, because people wont say anything. But, you must also weigh up, if it's worth getting potentially life changing injuries, or even death, by confronting someone committing anti social behaviour. People can be very unpredictable these days through substance abuse, and other reasons. As I said previously, peoples attitudes are no longer what they were. Unlike a few years ago, some people would have no problem in assaulting you, possibly with a weapon.
Until the various TOCs have a zero tolerance policy, and put measures in place to stop this, then there is only so much that anyone can do. Also, unlike a few years ago, other people possibly wont come to your rescue if you need them to.

Absolutely. I think the only time I'd be willing to risk my own safety in public would be if I saw someone vulnerable who was being harassed or abused by others, and was clearly in distress. Otherwise, I'm not going to get involved, and will leave it to people who know what they're doing.

 

[Camden]

Personally I think you're incredibly naïve, and taking stupid risks with your personal safety that are entirely unnecessary. Your assumption that there is no danger because you can't see any is very foolish indeed. I've been given shedloads of abuse by plenty of people who appear "respectable" in both personal and professional capacities, and life is far too short to invite more of it on yourself, with the risk of personal injury or death thrown in.

I think you are allowing your own fears to guide your train of thought. There is hidden danger in many things. However, where such danger should not exist and where it is unlikely to exist, I choose (note the word choose) to proceed as I think should be the norm. What you choose to do is down to you.

I agree with what you say to a point. Yes, maybe things have gone the way they have, because people wont say anything. But, you must also weigh up, if it's worth getting potentially life changing injuries, or even death, by confronting someone committing anti social behaviour. People can be very unpredictable these days through substance abuse, and other reasons. As I said previously, peoples attitudes are no longer what they were. Unlike a few years ago, some people would have no problem in assaulting you, possibly with a weapon.
Until the various TOCs have a zero tolerance policy, and put measures in place to stop this, then there is only so much that anyone can do. Also, unlike a few years ago, other people possibly wont come to your rescue if you need them to.

Yes, and I do wish that more TOCs would follow Merseyrail's path. It's a much more pleasant traveling experience than elsewhere in the country. Establishment of some basic rules seems to have a wider effect, and I'm quite happy to travel on their trains any time.

On the subject of bystanders, it might be there are pockets of the country that are troubled and where people are more reluctant to get involved (London anyone?) but a recent study offers up some reassurance generally:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-49295967/is-the-bystander-effect-a-myth

 

[Journeyman]

I think you are allowing your own fears to guide your train of thought. There is hidden danger in many things. However, where such danger should not exist and where it is unlikely to exist, I choose (note the word choose) to proceed as I think should be the norm. What you choose to do is down to you.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

I know what I am and am not capable of, and what I have seen others are capable of, and I make my decisions on that basis. Personally, I think your crusade for justice runs a risk of you getting stabbed sooner or later, and as I'm not fond of that particular outcome, I'll pass, thanks.

In other parts of my life, I'm pretty self-reliant and confident, and will think nothing of doing things that others would consider particularly risky, like solo hiking in very remote areas. Some risks are worth taking, others aren't.

 

[Camden]

Personally, I think your crusade for justice runs a risk of you getting stabbed sooner or later, and as I'm not fond of that particular outcome, I'll pass, thanks.

Thanks Mum, but I wasn't inviting you along! What you call a crusade for justice, I call travellng on a train, and I haven't come to any harm yet.

If you don't want me to stand in judgement of you for being physically fit and confident but passive in the face of bad behaviour, would you care to stop judging me now for doing the right thing (in law)?

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks Mum, but I wasn't inviting you along! What you call a crusade for justice, I call travellng on a train, and I haven't come to any harm yet.

If you don't want me to stand in judgement of you for being physically fit and confident but passive in the face of bad behaviour, would you care to stop judging me now for doing the right thing (in law)?

I just think you're taking stupid risks, and I can't for the life of me understand why the hell you think it's worth it, or why I should have to take those risks myself.

 

[bramling]

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

I know what I am and am not capable of, and what I have seen others are capable of, and I make my decisions on that basis. Personally, I think your crusade for justice runs a risk of you getting stabbed sooner or later, and as I'm not fond of that particular outcome, I'll pass, thanks.

In other parts of my life, I'm pretty self-reliant and confident, and will think nothing of doing things that others would consider particularly risky, like solo hiking in very remote areas. Some risks are worth taking, others aren't.

I don’t think it’s very reasonable to expect others to wade in and potentially put their safety at risk should something turn nasty over something as trivial as feet on a seat. The railway certainly won’t thank you for it, they’d rather have a muddy seat than (1) any kind of delay and (2) a member of staff assaulted.

Please listen to the advice being given here particularly that from railway staff who have experience of dealing with the traveling public on a professional basis. Your whole premise relies on nothing more than luck that you’re not going to encounter a bad person - and the problem with relying on luck is that somewhere along the line it *will* run out.

There’s a life skill in picking the right battles to fight, same applies in the workplace where some people make their working life much more unpleasant than it needs to be by picking arguments over every little thing they perceive to be wrong. They may well be right some or even most of the time, but that’s no use when eventually they themselves slip up on something and a corporate cheer goes up when finally management have the much-awaited chance to get rid of them. There’s some issues which are worth taking on and others which really aren’t.

 

[bramling]

Thanks Mum, but I wasn't inviting you along! What you call a crusade for justice, I call travellng on a train, and I haven't come to any harm yet.

If you don't want me to stand in judgement of you for being physically fit and confident but passive in the face of bad behaviour, would you care to stop judging me now for doing the right thing (in law)?

Just out of interest, so you tell someone to take their feet off the seats. You’re on a DOO train, and the person just stares at you blankly. They don’t get abusive, just completely ignore you, perhaps shrugging their shoulders. What happens next?

 

[Camden]

Just out of interest, so you tell someone to take their feet off the seats. You’re on a DOO train, and the person just stares at you blankly. They don’t get abusive, just completely ignore you, perhaps shrugging their shoulders. What happens next?

It has happened.

I make clear I'm unimpressed by their determined and knowing lack of consideration. They continue on their journey, I on mine. I can sense they are childishly trying to "assert" and pretend they're not bothered, but I remain wherever I am sat, resolutely unimpressed. They might not have taken their feet down on that occasion, for some weird "save face" type reason, but there's at least a small chance they'll think twice on their next journey.

More often than not, though, people take their feet down, even if some do tell me to mind my own business beforehand.

 

[Journeyman]

It has happened.

I make clear my disdain for their determined and knowing lack of consideration. They continue on their journey, I on mine. I can sense they are childishly trying to "assert" and pretend they're not bothered, but I remain wherever I am sat, resolutely unimpressed. They might not have taken their feet down on that occasion, for some weird "save face" type reason, but there's at least a small chance they'll think twice on their next journey.

More often than not, though, people take their feet down, even if some do tell me to mind my own business beforehand.

It's truly a miracle you haven't been beaten to a pulp yet.