FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[bnm]

I held a 1st Class Off Peak Day Return from Didcot Parkway to Tonbridge. Outward journey went without a hitch. The return journey on such a ticket has the following restrictions (restriction code F3):

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/63214.aspx

From that you can see that a holder of this ticket is free to make their return journey any time after 1000.

At around 1840 on the 14th January 2015, I presented my return portion of the aforementioned ticket to a member of the gateline staff at London Paddington so that I could board the 1847 service to Cheltenham (calling Didcot Parkway). I presented the ticket after it failed to activate the barrier. A brief conversation followed where I attempted to explain my ticket was valid, with the gateline staffer saying it wasn't. After some too-ing and fro-ing, he let me through after catching the attention of the Train Manager waiting at the rear of the service I wished to board.

I approached the TM and after a cursory view of my ticket he said it wasn't valid on his train, but he'd let me board and then excess it to the correct fare. Knowing this was wrong and not wishing to be liable for an Excess Fare of around £60, I returned to the gateline.

I asked the same person who'd told me my ticket was not valid to contact the Duty Station Manager. Initially I was taken over to the Excess Fares booth where, through obfuscation and lies, I was told that the ticket wasn't valid. I tried in vain to point out that they were referring to the return portions of Off Peak Day tickets issued to Paddington, whereas my ticket was issued to Tonbridge. I told them the relevant restriction code (F3), but it seemed beyond the wit of them, with both Avantix and the Excess Fares booth Ticket Issuing System (Fujitsu STAR?) to call up this info. Showing the correct info to them on my phone (brfares.com - unofficial but correct) got me nowhere. I reiterated my reqest for the Duty Station Manager.

I was walked over to the Customer Service Desk and waited while the DSM was called. She was busy dispatching services so I was told their may be a 10-20 minute wait. In the meantime the Senior Customer Ambassador came over and reiterated that my ticket wasn't valid on the train I'd chosen to catch (1847 PAD-DID). I said I'd wait for the DSM.

During the wait I told the Customer Ambassador that I would go to the ticket office and get a print out of the restriction code relevant to my ticket. This took longer than expected and when I came back the DSM was there and had obviously been briefed by her colleagues about me. She reiterated that Off Peak Day (even 1st Class ones!) are not valid off Paddington at the time I wished to travel. My explanation that my particular ticket was not priced by FGW, therefore they do not set the restrictions, fell on deaf ears. She was adamant that there was a blanket restriction set by FGW.

As patiently as I could, although admittedly butting in, I tried to explain that my ticket, Didcot Parkway - Tonbridge 1st Off Peak Day Return (restriction code F3), was priced by Southeastern and it is they that set the restrictions, not FGW. It was apparent that I was being difficult as a Network Rail 'Security' bod had appeared alongside the DSM. When I asked why security had been called he told me that the DSM knew what she was talking about, my ticket wasn't valid for the train I wanted to catch, and if I persisted being threatening (I wasn't) or abusive (I wasn't) I'd be requested to leave the station, and if I refused to leave quietly BTP would be called.

That raised my heckles and I'm a little ****ed off with myself that I rose to the challenge. I told the NR security bod to go ahead and call BTP - saying I'd gladly explain to them being denied travel with a valid ticket. Immediately saying that I knew it was a road not worth going down so I turned to the DSM, apologised for any action on my part that could be seen as threatening or abusive (there wasn't - my word obviously, but I was recording), showed her the printout I'd got from the ticket office, showed her what brfares.com said and implored her to go and investigate further.

I must give her a little bit of credit for doing just that. She took my ticket and the printout I'd got, told me to wait in the 1st Class Lounge and said she'd get back to me soon as.

That turned out to be nearly 40 minutes later. In that time I could have cut my losses and gone home, but I didn't have my ticket.

She came back and... I've never seen someone so effusive in their apologies. Apologising for herself and all her colleagues. By now I was very late in starting to get home so I thanked her for apologies but told her that I wanted apologies from the gateline staffer who'd initially denied me travel and, more importantly, from the NR 'security' bod who'd threatened me with removal and/or BTP involvement simply because he was backing up her now wrong assessment of the validity of my ticket.

Gateline staffer, to his eternal credit, came to the 1st Class Lounge and apologised in person. Network Rail muppet, still allegedly on duty, couldn't be found. Time to cut and run.

 

[455driver]

Get a letter/email off to FGW giving all the details and see what bull****e they come up with and then please take it as far as you can, they are fully aware of the restrictions on tickets starting elsewhere on the Network (they have been told enough times) and somebody needs to take this lot on!

You also need to put in about the delay to your journey (and ask how you go on about getting the compensation for the delay) and whether FGW are going to start complying with all ticket restrictions (which are readily available to all relevant staff and if not, why not) or just going carry on complying with the ones that suit them!

Good luck with it all.

 

[bb21]

I wonder whether it is time to start collecting evidence about FGW and their breach of the TSA at Thames Valley stations and report them to the DfT. It was good for staff to apologise at the end but I am not particularly impressed by how the story panned out initially. Someone who is less confident would have very easily been fobbed off by them.

I would have thought that TMs generally have better knowledge about ticket restrictions, but evidently not the one you encountered. I think a complaint would be justified as more people could have potentially been wrongly charged by him.

If it were me, I would have preferred to wait for BTP to arrive. I guess the guy we encountered last time wasn't there since there was no allegation of an (imaginary) gun being carried this time.

Shame really, as when ticket validities are not involved, they are actually a very nice bunch at Paddington.

 

[bnm]

Oh, don't worry, I've complained. And very forthrightly too. That was done before I posted here and elsewhere. There was no 'criticism sandwich' in the email. I've made demands. Compensation to be by cheque and not RTVs so at least it's punitive and not a zero sum game for FGW. Demanded a meeting with senior management - this is the third time I've been denied travel at Paddington with a valid ticket and with five members of staff (six if you include the interfering NR security) all being 100% wrong I want to discuss with management why the problem is endemic. Also demanded a full response within 28 days.

I've cc'd in my MP and will consider London TravelWatch if I'm not satisfied by the response.

And I've also made it clear that if I'm not satisfied with the response I reserve the right to take legal action for breach of contract.

 

[RJ]

If it were me, I would have preferred to wait for BTP to arrive. I guess the guy we encountered last time wasn't there since there was no allegation of an (imaginary) gun being carried this time.

All water under the bridge as on a later date, Paddington gateline staff saved my life.

That said, there is clearly some deadwood in the TOC's ticket training department. How can you have a mainline station where no ticket inspecting or selling staff know how to check the restriction on an Off Peak ticket? And a guard who didn't seem to have a clue either. All those years of experience between the lot of them and this farce still happened. The industry needs to get its act together and ensure all of its people are equipped with the product knowledge they need to actually be helpful, not a hindrance to its paying customers.

Knowledge isn't the only issue here - it's also this "customer is always wrong" culture, closing ranks and believing everything your colleagues come out with. Why did none of the staff take the initiative to check for themselves - which would involve reading the appropriate reference material, not asking a colleague who may or may not know what they're talking about to spoonfeed them the information. One person with initiative and a backbone could have put a stop to all of that. That manager didn't seem to be very in control.

It's good that these stories are shared as it's often the only way managers become aware of issues with their unsupervised subordinates.

 

[furlong]

You might suggest that they analyse the excess fares they have sold to estimate the scale of any other similar breaches and, where affected individuals can be identified, issue compensation. If that analysis proves too difficult, then why not advertise (poster at stations etc.) to ask people who might have been affected by misselling(*) - including those who chose to delay their journeys rather than pay an incorrect excess - to come forward for compensation?

And websites are still imposing evening peak restrictions on outward journeys from Reading to Paddington (for example) which form no part of the public restriction text (e.g. C7), potentially leading to more misselling of Anytime fares at times when Off-Peak is valid.

(*) Negligent misrepresentation of a passenger's contract? Negligent selling of unnecessary Excess Fares to passengers already in possession of valid tickets for their intended journeys?

 

[RJ]

I think it would be more pertinent for any involved parties to channel their efforts into preventing repeat occurences before all else.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm sorry, though not at all surprised, to hear of such a poor experience. Sadly, as many posters here know very well, poor knowledge of ticketing rules is endemic throughout the industry, across many TOCs and staff grades. In this case I would point out that a Duty Station Manager would not be expected to have any knowledge of ticketing, and indeed I'm surprised she attended this incident at all - also worth pointing out she is highly unlikely to have been dispatching trains, and depending on who exactly attended she may have been an NR bod rather than FGW - many possibilities. Anyhow, I certainly agree there is much need for this sort of incident to be raised in the strongest terms, in the hope that it may eventually lead to some positive action being taken across the board. It goes without saying, but do keep us updated.

 

[Flamingo]

Oh dear. I shall keep an eye out for the memo.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If I were you I'd have gotten on the train when I had the chance and proferred a name and address if necessary. This has been going on for years and some of the staff at Paddington simply refuse to learn

 

[Busaholic]

If I were you I'd have gotten on the train when I had the chance and proferred a name and address if necessary. This has been going on for years and some of the staff at Paddington simply refuse to learn

'Don't learn was made to learn' was a saying imbued in me from childhood, but where is the impetus coming from to make them?

 

[alastair]

I'm sorry, though not at all surprised, to hear of such a poor experience. Sadly, as many posters here know very well, poor knowledge of ticketing rules is endemic throughout the industry, across many TOCs and staff grades. In this case I would point out that a Duty Station Manager would not be expected to have any knowledge of ticketing, and indeed I'm surprised she attended this incident at all - also worth pointing out she is highly unlikely to have been dispatching trains, and depending on who exactly attended she may have been an NR bod rather than FGW - many possibilities. Anyhow, I certainly agree there is much need for this sort of incident to be raised in the strongest terms, in the hope that it may eventually lead to some positive action being taken across the board. It goes without saying, but do keep us updated.

Maybe because I don't work in the rail business,I struggle to understand how the Duty Station Manager "would not be expected to have any knowledge of ticketing". If this is true, with whom does "the buck stop" at Paddington in the case of a ticketing rules dispute?

 

[AngusH]

disclaimer: I am not a lawyer! Don't rely on this. Hopefully an actual lawyer can offer better thoughts.

Having read the ORR notes on the topic
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/5552/guidance_on_our_consumer_law_role_310310.pdf

it appears to me that there are some serious issues here.

In particular paragraphs 49 and 51:

49. Regulation 3 of the CPRs contains a general prohibition of unfair commercial practices.
A commercial practice is considered unfair if:
• it is not professionally diligent, and
• it materially distorts, or is likely to materially distort, the economic
behaviour of the average consumer.​

...

51. This second condition is likely to be met if, for example, because of the practice,
the average consumer would buy a product they would not otherwise have bought,
or would not exercise cancellation rights when otherwise they would have done so.​

It seems to me that this condition is met quite easily if people are being asked to buy an an excess or replacement ticket which is not required,
or if they are encouraged to buy a ticket with fewer restrictions when a cheaper one would be sufficient.

There's also a bunch of other stuff relating to promising to provide services at a price and then not providing them, which might well apply too.

I wonder if perhaps the consumer regulations have not been correctly understood by the operating companies?

Possibly the ORR can be persuaded to act and enforce the rules?

On the other hand, maybe the operators have an exception to the rules somehow?

 

[PermitToTravel]

On the other hand, maybe the operators have an exception to the rules somehow?

Yes - de facto!

 

[jon0844]

Knowledge isn't the only issue here - it's also this "customer is always wrong" culture, closing ranks and believing everything your colleagues come out with. Why did none of the staff take the initiative to check for themselves - which would involve reading the appropriate reference material, not asking a colleague who may or may not know what they're talking about to spoonfeed them the information. One person with initiative and a backbone could have put a stop to all of that. That manager didn't seem to be very in control.

The closing ranks problem is a VERY big problem. Hence me being unable to convince numerous staff (even when phone calls were made by staff) when I was set for prosecution for combining a Z1-3 and Z4-6 Travelcard because there was nothing to cover the gap (!), and more recently when I was being belittled by staff for asking for a first class supplement that 'didn't exist', 'couldn't be sold' and 'wasn't valid' for the purpose I was asking for (as in I supposedly had to travel only within the validity of my season ticket).

It reminds me almost of watching those air crash investigation programmes where you saw the culture that resulted in crashes where a junior Japanese co-pilot couldn't question the actions of a pilot his or her senior. Not exactly the same, but certainly a similar attitude that you don't question things - so nobody will even dare to look something up and say to the original staff member that he or she was wrong, undermining their authority or making them look bad. They probably figure they have to work with these people and don't want the grief that might follow.

So you end up with all staff unwilling to budge, and actually getting really upset and starting to act to make it even more awkward for you. Perhaps this is because at some stage they realise they might be wrong, but have to save face. And if they actually do realise they probably ARE wrong, they are now going to try and do anything to escalate the situation so they have an excuse to call security/BTP and have you removed.

At the very least, if you then complain and are proven correct, you'll still have to explain your behaviour - and that behaviour will be used as a defence when the staff member is called in to explain. 'I realised I was wrong but by then it was too late, as the passenger was already becoming abusive and I had no choice but to call the police for my safety'.

These incidents definitely do need to be reported, and restriction codes that are now printed on tickets should be incredibly easy to check up by anyone. I can look them up by going to nationalrail.co.uk/<code> so how the hell can that many staff not do so? As I said, probably because there reaches a point where staff will simply not back down and risk the embarrassment of having to make a big apology.

 

[plastictaffy]

Of course, an even easier idea would be to make it so that tickets are either "Off-Peak" "Anytime" (Peak) or "Weekend", with the only restriction code being the time of day you wish to travel. The amount of restrictions, loopholes and oddities is beyond a joke. There must be a governing body somewhere that can make it simpler. There was, allegedly a couple of years ago, an initiative to make it easier for the public to buy tickets.

Let's take, for example, a ticket from Euston to Birmingham. There are at least 20 different prices offered on the Avantix for this straightforward ticket. CDR, CDS, SDS, SDR, SSS, SSH, SVR, SVS, FDS, FDR, WUS, WUR. Then there is LM only, there is Any Permitted, Chiltern and connections only. Then each ticket has it's own little quirks and foibles. For example, you can travel at this time and this time, except this train, except if it's a Thursday and it's raining, and then you can travel on this train, but only if you are going to here, here, or here, unless it's Tuesday, and then you can't go here. How has that made it simpler for Joe Public?

I'm sure someone, somewhere could put a stop to all these stupid little quirks, and put together a straightforward, easy to understand ticketing system, perhaps based on mileage or something. Why should it be that if I wish to travel from Northampton to Newport South Wales, a journey that one or the other of us in the house make quite regularly, it should cost more to go via London than it does via Brum?

Why should it be that if I'm prepared to book my ticket 3 months in advance, that I can go from Euston to Liverpool for 6 quid, but if I don't, and buy it on train it's gonna be more like 60 quid??

The ticketing system in this country needs a HUGE overhaul, and sooner rather than later.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I agree with the general principle of your post almost entirely. The current convoluted system saves me looooaaaaaads of money with all the loopholes I can exploit, but I'd still rather have a sensible fit-for-purpose system that staff and passengers understand and that wouldn't put people off travelling.

 

[FenMan]

I agree with the general principle of your post almost entirely. The current convoluted system saves me looooaaaaaads of money with all the loopholes I can exploit, but I'd still rather have a sensible fit-for-purpose system that staff and passengers understand and that wouldn't put people off travelling.

I thought the only reason for ticket restrictions is to put people off travelling!

A glass half full/half empty argument, I know.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course, an even easier idea would be to make it so that tickets are either "Off-Peak" "Anytime" (Peak) or "Weekend", with the only restriction code being the time of day you wish to travel. The amount of restrictions, loopholes and oddities is beyond a joke. There must be a governing body somewhere that can make it simpler. There was, allegedly a couple of years ago, an initiative to make it easier for the public to buy tickets.

Let's take, for example, a ticket from Euston to Birmingham. There are at least 20 different prices offered on the Avantix for this straightforward ticket. CDR, CDS, SDS, SDR, SSS, SSH, SVR, SVS, FDS, FDR, WUS, WUR. Then there is LM only, there is Any Permitted, Chiltern and connections only. Then each ticket has it's own little quirks and foibles. For example, you can travel at this time and this time, except this train, except if it's a Thursday and it's raining, and then you can travel on this train, but only if you are going to here, here, or here, unless it's Tuesday, and then you can't go here. How has that made it simpler for Joe Public?

If such a simplification took place do you think the changes would be beneficial for passengers or do you think prices would be rounded up and the most restrictive conditions chosen?

I'm sure someone, somewhere could put a stop to all these stupid little quirks, and put together a straightforward, easy to understand ticketing system, perhaps based on mileage or something.

Feel free to try. It's not as easy as many people think it would be - not without either putting up the prices of the tickets for many people or losing the TOCs large amounts of money and making crowded services even busier - and who's going to pay for that?

Why should it be that if I wish to travel from Northampton to Newport South Wales, a journey that one or the other of us in the house make quite regularly, it should cost more to go via London than it does via Brum?

Too much choice? Presumably we should just keep the higher fare. Or we could base it on mileages - are they the same distance or would this also result in different fares?

Why should it be that if I'm prepared to book my ticket 3 months in advance, that I can go from Euston to Liverpool for 6 quid, but if I don't, and buy it on train it's gonna be more like 60 quid??

The ticketing system in this country needs a HUGE overhaul, and sooner rather than later.

That's simple to solve - we withdraw advance tickets. If that wasn't your suggestion, do feel free to make it clearer what your solution was.

Yes, our system is very complicated. Unfortunately removing such complication usually means people who used the withdrawn tickets paying more.

 

[timbo58]

I am surprised the gateline staff didn't know the validity of such a ticket at all.
They certainly would have done in my time, as would the TM.

I believe the reason the rtn portion was valid with few restrictions was because the railway understood the difficulties of this journey having such restrictions in place for the afternoon peak period and therefore it was an exemption.

FWIW, the TM was also incorrect -it isn't £60 to travel from Pad-DID and excessing a fare (even if a valid excess) is not appropriate if an undiscounted SDS is cheaper which I am sure it must be?!

Back in the days of sportis machines, guards would have to carry (or should have) a fares manual for fares lookups, these show the restrictions in the back appendix, excess and booking offices had these also. When the new portable machines came out we still carried the 20 odd pages torn from the fares manual to check ticket restrictions,hardly rocket science.

The DSM/station security would know bugger all about tickets IME, they don't need to since they are not ticketing staff.
The senior member of staff for ticketing on any station IMHO would be the booking office manager or possibly the gateline supervisor.

 

[Greenback]

Some staff don't want to check up on things even if they have the facility to do so, because they are certain that what they know, or have heard from colleagues is correct. It's a mindset that is supported by ineffective training, lack of support from management and the lack of both direct supervision and an effective appraisal system.

I suspect that much of this is to do with cutting back on what is seen as non essential expenditure. After all, it's cheaper for FGW to recompense people after these mistakes are made than to pay supervisory staff and managers to actually train people up and support them to do their jobs properly in the first place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The problem is not the "complexity" of the off-peak restrictions, rather the lack of desire of revenue staff to actually check what they are saying. Each and every restriction code is printed on the ticket, and each and every restriction code is available- as a short link- on the National Rail website.

If you remove the "complexity" you end up with blanket restrictions, such as on Cross Country where no off-peak ticket is valid for departure before 0930, regardless of whether you're travelling from Tamworth to Birmingham or Aberdeen to Penzance. I don't think that this is something we would want.

This issue isn't confined to First Great Western, either. If I had a quid for every time that a London Midland guard announces "all off peak tickets are prohibited for use on this (1730 off Euston) train" I'd be a very rich man indeed. And I can only shudder when I recall an East Coast guard haranguing people on the tannoy that they "must return to St Pancras if they have an EMT ticket, so don't ask again"; there was ticket acceptance in place after a fatality at Mill Hill Broadway.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. All TOC's seem to have the same philosophy regarding the costs of training and supervision against the costs of rectifying mistakes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, an even easier idea

An even easier idea than that is one ticket per train (no connections) and compulsory reservations. Then you could use airline style pricing - and by the way don't expect "off peak" pricing at 7:30pm on a Friday evening on IC, as that's really the busiest time of the week.

*Don't* give them ideas.

Neil

 

[talldave]

The poor training and commitment to getting the right information as cited by posters above gives passengers the impression that they're being treated as fare dodgers until they can prove their innocence.

The fact that the TOCs have installed barriers that reject valid tickets just adds to this passenger perception that, even with a valid ticket, they are somehow pulling a fast one or getting away with something when, in reality, they are simply trying to get the service they've paid for.

The underlying problem for the passenger is that, within the TOCs' management, nobody gives a ****.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's surely not a massive degree of training to show someone how to check a code on a website or other system. And it's surely not a massive degree of training to tell someone that, if their assertions are queried by the customer, they could and should always doubt themselves until they have checked. After all, things are changing all the time and their (sure) knowledge may have been superseded.

This is an awkward attitude thing which is sadly too prevalent in too many places, not just on the Railway.

 

[Greenback]

It's surely not a massive degree of training to show someone how to check a code on a website or other system. And it's surely not a massive degree of training to tell someone that, if their assertions are queried by the customer, they could and should always doubt themselves until they have checked. After all, things are changing all the time and their (sure) knowledge may have been superseded.

This is an awkward attitude thing which is sadly too prevalent in too many places, not just on the Railway.

On the railway things tend not to be so simple. Even if someone has the facility to check on something and the ability and knowledge to use that facility properly, I've never seen anywhere that relies so much on mess room talk as a source on the correct way of doing things.

In my experience, it takes a lot of training and a lot of supervision and support to negate that effect. Things aren't helped by the reliance of on the job mentoring for new recruits, all of which merely serves to reinforce the idea that information from colleagues can be relied upon to always be correct.

 

[jon0844]

Given tickets have restriction codes on them, and they're so incredibly simple to look up, this is one particular problem that shouldn't be an issue at all.

Even if people are all of a particular belief, it simply takes one of them to say 'let's look it up then'. No need to even look silly, as you can say 'I thought it wasn't valid, but it looks like it is - good day sir' and probably won't have caused much of a delay.

Personally, if I knew 100% that the ticket was valid then I'd have boarded the train and had the argument with the TM while at least making progress. Perhaps taking photos of the tickets in case they were removed for investigation, or even covertly recording the conversation if necessary.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I suppose that's one of the reasons a DSM without ticket training can be expected to resolve disputes - all she needs is to be able to read. Now if only we could have all gateline staff so bestowed.

 

[bnm]

FWIW, the TM was also incorrect -it isn't £60 to travel from Pad-DID and excessing a fare (even if a valid excess) is not appropriate if an undiscounted SDS is cheaper which I am sure it must be?!

1st Class Off Peak Day Return Didcot-Tonbridge held - £55. An excess for travel at a time the ticket is not valid (it was valid of course!) would be up to the appropriate ticket valid at that time. If it's an excess in one direction you still excess to the full return fare. That would be the 1st Anytime Day Return at £114. An excess of £59. If cheaper then it's the Single ticket. That would have been £57. The TM may well have decided to sell me the PAD-DID 1st Anytime Day Single at £54 had I boarded and meekly accepted my ticket wasn't valid. I did consider boarding, refusing the excess and insisting on a UFN. However there was a chance RPIs were aboard and/or I could be put off at Reading. I decided to stay at Paddington, get the DSM to confirm validity (that's what has been required before) and travel on the next service. I didn't expect the process to take as long as it did, with every member of staff encountered being 100% wrong, This time the DSM took my ticket away and disappeared for 40 minutes. That was after already having been mucked about for over 30 minutes, and 15 minutes in the ticket office getting a validity printout.

So, anything between £54-£59 if I'd meekly accepted the excess. Funds I did not have on me. That's why my OP said 'around £60'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Each and every restriction code is printed on the ticket

Depends on the issuing system. Avantix (my ticket was purchased from one) and many TVMs do not print the two character code yet.