FGW HST to East Coast (short term)

[Aictos]

So how long before someone sees the First logo and gets on it at Stevenage/PBO/KGX thinking it's an FCC train?

It's already happened! Someone yesterday saw it at Stevenage and said it was a First Hull Trains set.

 

[hello]

so how come east coast did not borrow xc spare hst set for this?

 

[sprinterguy]

so how come east coast did not borrow xc spare hst set for this?

Crosscountry only have one spare HST set available, which is their own maintenance spare and so not really available for hiring out to another operator.

Plus, the XC HST sets are two carriages shorter than the EC ones, have much less first class seating and only minimal buffet/restaurant facilities (Though I'm sure that some posters would contend that this matches East Coasts' minimal buffet/restaurant provision! ).

 

[newbie babs]

I took this yesterday

 

[Minilad]

And don't forget EC have also had a EMT set floating around for the last couple of days too

 

[Adam_Harrison]

Got this today while travelling to Newcastle

 

[Bridge189]

Crosscountry only have one spare HST set available, which is their own maintenance spare and so not really available for hiring out to another operator.

Plus, the XC HST sets are two carriages shorter than the EC ones, have much less first class seating and only minimal buffet/restaurant facilities (Though I'm sure that some posters would contend that this matches East Coasts' minimal buffet/restaurant provision! ).

The current EC catering offer requires more catering module space than any of the past ones hence the trolly docks between FC coaches and the extended kitchen area in coach K on the 225s. When EC last had one of XCs HSTs they replaced the mini buffet thing with one of their own full size ones.

 

[sonorguy]

Got this today while travelling to Newcastle

Have to say, having used them I'm not a fan at all of those leather seats, the fabric ones are so much better.

 

[ainsworth74]

Have to say, having used them I'm not a fan at all of those leather seats, the fabric ones are so much better.

Yes, I used them between Penzance and Paddington over the summer and their comfy enough but I preferred sitting on the Mallard style seats that EC's sets have.

Not quite sure where this sudden obsession with leather in first class has come from though. Both EMT and FGW are refurnishing their trains with it whilst personally I don't think there was anything wrong with fabric!

 

[mallard]

Not quite sure where this sudden obsession with leather in first class has come from though. Both EMT and FGW are refurnishing their trains with it whilst personally I don't think there was anything wrong with fabric!

Yeah, I don't get what's supposedly so good about plastic (sorry, "leather") seatcovers either. Having experienced it in EMT's first class, I found it slippery to sit on and rather sticky wherever it contacted bare skin. Much prefer fabric (or actual leather, I'm sitting in a leather computer chair right now!). I also find it very odd that EMT's refreshed Meridians have antimacassars in standard class, but not in first...

 

[philjo]

I saw the FGW set in Platform 8 at Kings Cross about 16:10 this afternoon.

The EMT set was in platform 8 this moning (forming the 10:30 Newcastle service)

 

[JamesHorrell]

Well I Went to See it and asked what platform it came in on and a EC Guy sais Platform 8 so i stood on Platform 8 but it never came so doesn't anyone know why it didin't come in .

 

[Aictos]

Rather surprising, the Volo TV screens were working today on the 16:33 Kings Cross to Leeds - I don't think they were the rest of the week though.

As to the leather seats in First Class, I find them to be so much more comfortable then fabric indeed I firmly believe all HSTs should be refurbished along the lines of the Great Western sets with HSTs gaining a extra Standard Class trailer if possible, wifi and the same great mobile phone reception you get on Virgin Trains not to mention SDO which would be very useful for Lincoln and north of Edinburgh.

The other thing I like about the Great Western HSTs is how clean and well represented the FGW livery is compared to the mish mash liveries carried by the East Coast HSTs, I can only hope they succeed East Coast

 

[jon0844]

I think the FGW sets have by far the best interior of any HST in operation - and I really like the entertainment system in coach D. Even though I may not use it much (I have a phone full of TV shows/movies, plus a laptop with MiFi), there would be plenty of people who would - especially parents wanting to keep children entertained.

Now people on EC have had a taste, they'll want more!!

 

[43067]

Just out of interest what do you actually pay for and what do you get on this VOLO TV system? Is live streaming tv.

 

[Aictos]

I think the FGW sets have by far the best interior of any HST in operation - and I really like the entertainment system in coach D. Even though I may not use it much (I have a phone full of TV shows/movies, plus a laptop with MiFi), there would be plenty of people who would - especially parents wanting to keep children entertained.

Now people on EC have had a taste, they'll want more!!

Indeed, I like the way that East Midlands Trains has kept the old interior but has given it a new lease of life but as to the refurbished HSTs, the Great Western HSTs win every time.

Indeed the only things which would improve the Great Western HSTs is WiFi and a agreement to boost the Mobile Phone coverage on the HSTs.

Just out of interest what do you actually pay for and what do you get on this VOLO TV system? Is live streaming tv.

Have a look here - It's First Great Western's own webpage from their website which explains it in more detail.

 

[mallard]

Indeed, I like the way that East Midlands Trains has kept the old interior but has given it a new lease of life but as to the refurbished HSTs, the Great Western HSTs win every time.

I disagree. I don't know about first class, but in standard I find FGW's seats much less comfortable than the "Mallard" seats used by EC and XC and the arrangement of them quite cramped. The original IC70 seating is of course the best and since modern regulations ban comfortable seats, they'll remain so. The Mallard refurbs are next, with FGWs uncomfortable and cramped interiors last.

 

[Aictos]

I disagree. I don't know about first class, but in standard I find FGW's seats much less comfortable than the "Mallard" seats used by EC and XC and the arrangement of them quite cramped. The original IC70 seating is of course the best and since modern regulations ban comfortable seats, they'll remain so. The Mallard refurbs are next, with FGWs uncomfortable and cramped interiors last.

I'm fairly tall if I may say so I don't have any issues with FGW seating and the myth that the FGW seats are cramped is just that a myth.

I'm positive that the seating used in the First Great Western, GNER and Cross Country refurbishment are the one and the same but with different seating covers - The Mallard refurbishments could have been so much better, for example decent fold out tables for airline seat passengers to use rather then GNER's poor excuse for tables, the fact that FGW has actually left safety notices in the back of seats allowing passengers to read them at their own convenience, a much bigger choice when it comes to onboard refreshments.

If anything, it's actually East Coast's interiors which are cramp and uncomfortable hence why I go First Class on long distances rather then having to put up with cramped Standard Class interiors.

If anything, I believe that if the Great Western HSTs had a extra trailer coach to provide more Standard Class seating ie 2+9 formations like the East Coast sets then they would be more comfortable simply because more seats would be available.

 

[jopsuk]

Other than not having the carriages available, is there a technical reason for the GW HSTs being 2+8 (and even 2+7)? Short terminii?

 

[mallard]

I'm fairly tall if I may say so I don't have any issues with FGW seating and the myth that the FGW seats are cramped is just that a myth.

I don't think you can dismiss my personal experience and opinion as a "myth". I've travelled in all variants of HST except GC.

I'm positive that the seating used in the First Great Western, GNER and Cross Country refurbishment are the one and the same but with different seating covers

They aren't. The Cross Country sets were refurbished to the same spec as the GNER sets, so are indeed almost identical, but FGW uses a completely different type of seat (also used in EMT's 158s, that I also find a bit cramped).

The Mallard refurbishments could have been so much better, for example decent fold out tables for airline seat passengers to use rather then GNER's poor excuse for tables, the fact that FGW has actually left safety notices in the back of seats allowing passengers to read them at their own convenience, a much bigger choice when it comes to onboard refreshments.

All refurbishments could be improved. The safety notices on FGW are just pointless health and safety "don't put your socks in the toaster" nonsense, probably just there as a gimmick after the Southall and Ladbroke accidents.

The choice of refreshments is irrelevant to the actual comfort of the seating and environment.

If anything, I believe that if the Great Western HSTs had a extra trailer coach to provide more Standard Class seating ie 2+9 formations like the East Coast sets then they would be more comfortable simply because more seats would be available.

I only take up one seat. I don't see how adding an extra carriage would suddenly make this one seat more comfortable. Also, I expect timing would suffer, FGW's timetable is far too "padded" as it is!

 

[jon0844]

"don't put your socks in the toaster"

OMG - why not?

When I was on FGW, in standard, I managed to sit quite comfortably without feeling cramped - and I also managed to put my laptop on the seat-back tray and open the screen up properly to use it.

Other trains may have more legroom, but if my legs aren't touching the seat in front (I'm 5ft 10in) and there's room to use a laptop - I am pretty sure that more room would be an unnecessary luxury, at the expense of a row or two of seats.

First class is obviously nicer, but I'm quite content in standard and thinking about what luxury I can enjoy later on with the money saved (bar exceptionally good advance offers).

 

[Aictos]

I don't think you can dismiss my personal experience and opinion as a "myth". I've travelled in all variants of HST except GC.

And? I'm just stating that despite so many views that the Great Western interiors are cramped they actually aren't.

They aren't. The Cross Country sets were refurbished to the same spec as the GNER sets, so are indeed almost identical, but FGW uses a completely different type of seat (also used in EMT's 158s, that I also find a bit cramped).

These seats look the same but that's besides the point.

All refurbishments could be improved. The safety notices on FGW are just pointless health and safety "don't put your socks in the toaster" nonsense, probably just there as a gimmick after the Southall and Ladbroke accidents.

It's actually a legal requirement now to display these and they're not just a "gimmick" they actually don't display useless information but vital information as in what to do in a emergency which I believe is pretty important.

The choice of refreshments is irrelevant to the actual comfort of the seating and environment.

I disagree, being able to enjoy a much better choice of refreshments does improve the environment while travelling it may not have much in common with seating but it does count towards passenger comfort.

I only take up one seat. I don't see how adding an extra carriage would suddenly make this one seat more comfortable. Also, I expect timing would suffer, FGW's timetable is far too "padded" as it is!

Adding a extra coach would provide more seats, more seats would mean less people having to sit/stand in the vestibules which would make the sets less claustrophobic.

Timing wouldn't matter at all, so saying it would suffer is a joke.

Also Great Western isn't the only operator who overpads their timetables, East Coast does it as does every other operator out there.

 

[Daimler]

OMG - why not?

When I was on FGW, in standard, I managed to sit quite comfortably without feeling cramped - and I also managed to put my laptop on the seat-back tray and open the screen up properly to use it.

Other trains may have more legroom, but if my legs aren't touching the seat in front (I'm 5ft 10in) and there's room to use a laptop - I am pretty sure that more room would be an unnecessary luxury, at the expense of a row or two of seats.

First class is obviously nicer, but I'm quite content in standard and thinking about what luxury I can enjoy later on with the money saved (bar exceptionally good advance offers).

I would argue that FGW's HST refurbishment is much underrated, which perhaps has a lot to do with the exceptionally high backs and relative lack of tables, giving the carriage something of the feel a road coach. Having used the trains on a fairly regular basis, though, I've not only found the seats to be very comfortable, but also to offer far better legroom than you'd expect, considering the number of seats per carriage (indeed, I'd say they have more legroom than the East Coast sets).

Indeed, while the FGW refurbishment may not look all that inviting as you enter the carriage, it seems to me to be one of the best thought-out train interiors of recent years - somehow, they've managed to give everyone plenty of space and crammed more seats in.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's actually a legal requirement now to display these and they're not just a "gimmick" they actually don't display useless information but vital information as in what to do in a emergency which I believe is pretty important.

Safety notices are required, but FGW's HSTs have individual seat back foldout cards, like in an aircraft.

That is far in excess of what group standards require, and isn't done anywhere else on the railaway, so presumably isn't a legal requirement...

 

[mallard]

Safety notices are required, but FGW's HSTs have individual seat back foldout cards, like in an aircraft.

That is far in excess of what group standards require, and isn't done anywhere else on the railaway, so presumably isn't a legal requirement...

Quite. Most of the information is pretty much just common-sense stuff or made pretty obvious by the signage near the doors/escape windows anyway. I don't feel any safer having read it, nor to I feel as though I couldn't get out in an emergency on any other train.

Providing the at-seat cards is unnecessary and probably just a cynical attempt at improving FGWs safety image after the accidents.

 

[jon0844]

What's the harm in FGW 'going the extra mile' to make the safety information easily accessible? Instead of having them randomly placed (or so it would seem) on posters in places you'll, frankly, not get up to go and read.

I agree that the high seat backs do give a coach feel, but once you're seated, it actually gives you a feeling of privacy. I accept some will like that, others won't. If you travel on FCC 313s into Moorgate, you'll now have some of the 'new' trains with low seats and there's a huge difference to the feeling you get - especially when the low seat version is lightly loaded.

But, high seat backs offer another safety advantage and aren't going to change. The high-density design was also vital because of the overcrowding issues; get less people to travel and they can make all the seats like first class!

Finally, having access to a menu of what is available in the shop is another great idea (likewise putting all of this info on the seat-back screens). Having the menu read out probably annoys regular passengers, and you'll miss things anyway. Plus, a menu may be read to pass some time during the journey and you decide to have something when you previously didn't. It costs nothing and you're not compelled to read any of the literature!

Things that may seem pointless to the daily commuters are thought of completely differently by leisure/infrequent passengers.

As you can tell, I really like the FGW HSTs. I also really like the EC sets, and quite like things being different to mix things up as it would be boring otherwise.

 

[MCR247]

I only take up one seat. I don't see how adding an extra carriage would suddenly make this one seat more comfortable. Also, I expect timing would suffer, FGW's timetable is far too "padded" as it is!

That actually made my day!

 

[jon0844]

Can I just ask whether anyone believes that an ordinary passenger, perhaps on their first journey, would know all the safety features of a train, the emergency exits (including windows), or to stay on the train where it's likely safer instead of trying to evacuate?

Exclude us; we probably know it all, or can easily work things out or know what signs to look for on a train we haven't been on before.

I think there's a real benefit to having the safety information placed where people can see it, as against somewhere where they probably won't see it - but the company can say 'hah, who cares if they didn't read it - at least we've ticked the appropriate box!'.

Frankly, I can't believe that someone is actually criticising First Great Western for doing this; I'd be asking why other TOCs don't do the same thing. Accidents are extremely rare on trains, as they are in the air, but we don't slate airlines for giving the safety demonstration and guiding everyone towards the cards in the seat pocket!

HEX also has the safety information placed on cards around the train, and I am sure there will be others. Let's congratulate them and cut the cynicism!

Some airlines (Ryanair for example) have the safety procedures on the seat backs in the form of stickers that you can't miss. FGW could potentially do this, but it's clear they'd be covered in graffiti in no time - so the cards can be replaced.

 

[sprinterguy]

Other than not having the carriages available, is there a technical reason for the GW HSTs being 2+8 (and even 2+7)? Short terminii?

The Great Western HSTs were delivered as 2+7 sets, so there's only a limited number of mark 3 vehicles going round. While FGW have acquired quite a large number of additional mark 3s after the Virgin XC HST withdrawal and Project Rio, these have been used to form up additional sets rather than strengthen existing ones.

Adding additional coaches beyond the current maximum of eight would be detrimental to timings and would make the sets slower over the formidable Devon banks, which I think is a key reason why they have stayed at eight. The shorter seven carriage sets are intended for medium-distance journeys with more frequent stops, so benefit from quicker acceleration due to the shorter formation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Timing wouldn't matter at all, so saying it would suffer is a joke.

'tis only my humble opinion, but I think that the further deceleration of FGWs' timetable due to adding an additional carriage would matter quite a lot when the route to Devon and Cornwall can hardly be described as particularly quick anyway. Although conversely I don't think the adding of a ninth carriage to East Coasts' HSTs caused a slowing down of the schedules, so perhaps that argument is flawed.

 

[jon0844]

If there's loads of padding, would it make that much difference?