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bloogrape

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Hey

Ive heard some gossip on First Great Western if they loose the Bid thats coming up shortly.
The general rumour going around is that the 180's are going to scotland and the 170's would replace it if they had lost, this is sad news to me as i see a 180's everyday, ok they may not be the nicest to travel in but it was spose to be a modern day HST, dont get me wrong my passion for the class 43 overwhelms the sadness.

I think it would be ashame to see it leave, wouldnt you agree?
 
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ChrisCooper

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First don't own the 180s anyway, they are owned by a leasing company and First lease them, they didn't even invest in them. Anyway, they would need permission from the DfT, and I doubt they would allow it. Purely from an operational point of view, the 170s are limited to 100mph, so could not keep as good timing on the GWML fast lines wheras the 180s could never work to their full capacity in Scotland since it has little 100mph+ running, and it's not even like the 170s would make up in acceleration (a 180 can out accelerate a HST wheras a 170 can't). Also, the 170s would need ATP fitting, and a 3 car 170 isn't going to have the capacity of a 5 car 180. Then their is the drop in quality from an Intercity unit to a glorified Sprinter.
 

Sprog

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I agree, it does just sound like a nasty rumor...i wounldnt take any notice of it chap...
 

Andrew

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I was under the impression that First *did* own the 180s - as opposed to a leasing company. But that may complete rubbish!

Some HST sets are owned by First though, and they won't stay with GW if First lose the franchise - unless they sell them or lease them on to the new franchisee. Or do the DfT have some plan to enforce even more power (than the stupidly high amount they already want) over the new GW TOC? *goes off grumbling about privatisation*

And yes, taking away the Adelantes would be a real shame. The Hereford/Worcester line would go back to Turbos for most services! Not good at all. And it doesn't fit with the GWML RUS of having the PAD RDG fasts for sole use by 125mph stock for most of the day.
 

Andrew

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Ah yep, and the Angel Trains website agrees (here)
Although apparently they don't count as "High Speed" with Angel - they're just "Regional"!
 

yorkie

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Andrew said:
Ah yep, and the Angel Trains website agrees (here)
Although apparently they don't count as "High Speed" with Angel - they're just "Regional"!
They're both! They are regional high speed trains.

They're not long distance trains, and I would simply refuse to travel on one for a long journey such as Paddington to Penzance.

It's my own personal choice, and some may disagree and that's fine, but I've travelled on an Adelante once and I don't intend to travel on one again unless it's on a local service, or is the last train back or something.
 

bloogrape

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damn there was something i didnt know, i had allways though the 180's was the companyown purchase and the 165/166 43's was leased...

proberly a silly rumour but i would be realy gutted if they did leave.
anybody know what the final bid day is as ive heard two different bid days?

sorry if this topic was abit of a waste but i had thought the 180 would realy go
 

Julian G

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Although Adelantes do operate Exeter Semi-Fast

have anyone seen Siemens idea for HST2
it looks plastic! :roll:
 

Andrew

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Adelantes get to Plymouth and Swansea too.

Possible date for GrW winner announcement is Dec 23rd IIRC, but you can never tell anyway. I wouldn't go by anyone's suggestion for the date until nearer the time.

And Siemens HST2 stuff is surely all speculation. And the interiors will be the bits are surely the most likely to change too. So little of HST2 has been designed I wouldn't start complaining yet!
 

heart-of-wessex

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have some 180s gone with FGWL? just have noticed some adelante services are replaced by HSTs such as a couple of Cheltenhams are now HSTs, one Cardiff adelante is now a HST and quite a few Herefords are now HSTs
 

Techniquest

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yorkie said:
Andrew said:
Ah yep, and the Angel Trains website agrees (here)
Although apparently they don't count as "High Speed" with Angel - they're just "Regional"!
They're both! They are regional high speed trains.

Agreed

They're not long distance trains, and I would simply refuse to travel on one for a long journey such as Paddington to Penzance.

Depends. If the HST was from, say, Exeter, with nothing but a 180 (due to some exceptional circumstances), I'd do that. Might go all the way to Penzance on it for the novelty of it, but would return on a HST.

It's my own personal choice, and some may disagree and that's fine, but I've travelled on an Adelante once and I don't intend to travel on one again unless it's on a local service, or is the last train back or something.

Your choice. When did you do a 180? I don't recall hearing about that. It sounds like the same argument for not doing York to Bristol via Birmingham, instead spending more money via the ECML and feeding GNER money. Your choice I guess though.
180s, btw, run twice a day up to Hereford and back at this moment in time. 1124 and 1522 off Hereford to Paddington are their return journeys.
 

Andrew

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heart-of-wessex said:
have some 180s gone with FGWL? just have noticed some adelante services are replaced by HSTs such as a couple of Cheltenhams are now HSTs, one Cardiff adelante is now a HST and quite a few Herefords are now HSTs
On weekdays there are 2 Hereford-Pad HST services - there have been for ages - look at the operator - there are the 2 business trains that are GW HSTs, while (apart from one train later in the day) most services are GL (180s or Turbos). The Turbos generally have HST connections at Oxford - but HSTs can't work the majority of Cotswold Line services as they would have to miss out the Hanbourough stop. Therefore they run a 125mph set to keep to OXF-PAD times and then connect to a Turbo for the Cotswold line. At least some services are meant to have these connections held (up to 5/10 mins IIRC). At least that's AIUI.

The HSTs have been put on more Cheltenham and more Cardiff half hourlies to free up the 180s for Exeter semis, Oxford fasts and the Costwold line services. The Exeter semis fill in the B&H pattern of fast services to London btw - these being hourly by FGWL but 3 (IIRC) tpd are 180s on and Exeter service. These Bedwyn services give the hourly fast Turbo RDG-PAD, which is what will be removed/replaced when RDG-PAD fasts go sole 125mph stock.
 
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Where 58's still operate in commercial service...
Siemens is..... well How can I say it...... uhhhhm.......

Okay, Siemens is crap. Something to flush down the toilet. Espacyally on Diesel traction. Look what became of the ICE-T and ICE-TD. And still the problems that keep occur on the German and Dutch ICE-3 trainsets.

Sorry, But I think you'll be better of with Bombardier.
 

Andrew

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Holland on Rail said:
Siemens is..... well How can I say it...... uhhhhm.......

Okay, Siemens is rubbish. Something to flush down the toilet. Espacyally on Diesel traction. Look what became of the ICE-T and ICE-TD. And still the problems that keep occur on the German and Dutch ICE-3 trainsets.

Sorry, But I think you'll be better of with Bombardier.
Well I'll bear that in mind when I get round to ordering HST2 :roll: ;).
 

Techniquest

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Andrew said:
heart-of-wessex said:
have some 180s gone with FGWL? just have noticed some adelante services are replaced by HSTs such as a couple of Cheltenhams are now HSTs, one Cardiff adelante is now a HST and quite a few Herefords are now HSTs
On weekdays there are 2 Hereford-Pad HST services - there have been for ages - look at the operator - there are the 2 business trains that are GW HSTs, while (apart from one train later in the day) most services are GL (180s or Turbos). The Turbos generally have HST connections at Oxford - but HSTs can't work the majority of Cotswold Line services as they would have to miss out the Hanbourough stop. Therefore they run a 125mph set to keep to OXF-PAD times and then connect to a Turbo for the Cotswold line. At least some services are meant to have these connections held (up to 5/10 mins IIRC). At least that's AIUI.

The HSTs have been put on more Cheltenham and more Cardiff half hourlies to free up the 180s for Exeter semis, Oxford fasts and the Costwold line services. The Exeter semis fill in the B&H pattern of fast services to London btw - these being hourly by FGWL but 3 (IIRC) tpd are 180s on and Exeter service. These Bedwyn services give the hourly fast Turbo RDG-PAD, which is what will be removed/replaced when RDG-PAD fasts go sole 125mph stock.
Indeed, couldn't have said it better myself.

From the new TT, there is a service from Great Malvern to Oxford, with connections from the 0950 from Hereford there, with an arrival into London at 1255, again a connection from Oxford (doesn't say whether it's HST, 180 or Turbo onwards though). However, what puts me off doing that is the TT doesn't suggest it's a 180, so a 165 from Great Malvern?! That would be cool to photograph, but I'm unsure I'd want to do that much riding on a 165! Indeed, I have done a 166 (I think, heart-of-wessex did the same trip) from HFD - OXF before. NOT fun!
 

TheSlash

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Holland on Rail said:
Siemens is..... well How can I say it...... uhhhhm.......

Okay, Siemens is rubbish. Something to flush down the toilet. Espacyally on Diesel traction. Look what became of the ICE-T and ICE-TD. And still the problems that keep occur on the German and Dutch ICE-3 trainsets.

Sorry, But I think you'll be better of with Bombardier.
Siemens are new to UK railways. They are still learning daily with operating a mass fleet, namely the SWT 450 fleet where they will{accoridng to sources} very shortly have 109 units for 109 diagrams....
Bombardier have had longer to produce good matetrial and are still struggling to produce satisfactory numbers of vehicles for service on a normal daily basis.
With SWT, Siemens seen hampered by Northam, to simplify "It's all wrong"
Management on all sides need to turn over a new leaf by holding their hands up and saying "We were wrong" followed by re/introducing Siemens staff at Fratton and Wimbldedon aswell as Waterloo
 

Met Driver

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FGWFan said:
However, what puts me off doing that is the TT doesn't suggest it's a 180, so a 165 from Great Malvern?! That would be cool to photograph, but I'm unsure I'd want to do that much riding on a 165! Indeed, I have done a 166 (I think, heart-of-wessex did the same trip) from HFD - OXF before. NOT fun!
Once upon a time it was not uncommon to have a 165 on a Great Malvern to Padd service, so if you think HFD - OXF is bad, think again. ;)

I've done Malvern to Padd on a turbo more times than I care to remember, and it's safe to say, IMO, that the 180s are a vast improvement.
 

Z12XE

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Andrew said:
I was under the impression that First *did* own the 180s - as opposed to a leasing company. But that may complete rubbish!

They sort of did at first...the company was orignally called something like Wiltshire Leasing (that First had a stake in) which was before long sold to Angel
 

Andrew

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hereford HSTs (M-F) are:

0748 padd - Hereford
1152 padd - Hereford
1722 padd - Hereford
1822 padd - Hereford

(starting from next week that is)
FGWFan said:
REALLY?! Four HSTs a day? I don't think so, they've got to be 180s on the first two.
Yep, they are 180. At least, they're marked with the "A" in the new FGW/L Book3.
 

steve158

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i've noticed that turbos are banned from going beyond great malvern as well..

where do the first units of the day come from anyway, does anyone know?

there is a FGWL depot at Shrub hill i know, and some turbos are stabled at tyseley.
 

Tomnick

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Thought there wasn't an FGWL depot there? Seem to remember something about Central (?) crews covering some diagrams, particularly first/last trains, to enable one unit to stable there overnight. Since Central withdrew that arrangement, I think an Oxford crew now works the last one down, and stays with the train in Worcester overnight to work the first one up in the morning. Or am I totally wrong?
 

steve158

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Tomnick said:
Thought there wasn't an FGWL depot there? Seem to remember something about Central (?) crews covering some diagrams, particularly first/last trains, to enable one unit to stable there overnight. Since Central withdrew that arrangement, I think an Oxford crew now works the last one down, and stays with the train in Worcester overnight to work the first one up in the morning. Or am I totally wrong?
no, FGWL have crew based at worcester, i'm wondering where the units come from.
 

Sprog

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steve158 said:
i've noticed that turbos are banned from going beyond great malvern as well..

where do the first units of the day come from anyway, does anyone know?

there is a FGWL depot at Shrub hill i know, and some turbos are stabled at tyseley.
It is my understanding that Turbos are only allowed to go up to certain areas and no further, becasue of the width of their bodies.

Becasue they where built for the Western Region, they where built with slightly wider bodies to take advantage of the larger Loading guage on Brunels old broad-guage lines.

There for, areas out of the old Western region are generally not suitable for Turbos without being approved and modified if nessecary.

This is possibly the case beyond Great Malvern.:idea:

I didnt know that Turbos are stabled at Tysley depot!! :o

Are you sure they arnt Chiltern's units, as they have a fleet of Turbo units aswell..... :?:
 
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