FGW Sleeper

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GlosRail

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I was told by someone that if there are no 57's available then the FGW sleeper is pulled by a HST.

Is this true as I've never heard of it being HST hauled before?
 
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dave87016

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I would have thought that a 67 would work it should no 57's be available though I am sure someone who knows will provide accurate information
 

TEW

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In an emergency back to back power cars can be used to haul train. If there is a shortage of 57s though FGW will hire in another 57, in the past from Virgin but might be from someone else nowadays as Virgin don't have so many available.
 

ainsworth74

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I would have thought that a 67 would work it should no 57's be available though I am sure someone who knows will provide accurate information
That would require a 67 to be available and for there to be either drivers that sign the routes/stock or route conductors and drivers to be made available. Which means it's much easier to use back to back HST power cars that are both available and the drivers sign.

Though as above I've only ever heard it as being an emergency measure normally to rescue a failed Sleeper train rather than haul it throughout.
 

TEW

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67s won't be used because of the driver issues, FGW drivers don't sign them. 57s can be used and if certain drivers are working the train so can 47s, but 47s haven't been used in about 4 years now, since the demis of Cotswold Rail. Using back to back powercars still requires a 57 for the ETH anyway, so only really useful when the 57 only has a fault preventing it hauling the train.
 

ainsworth74

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6and if certain drivers are working the train so can 47s, but 47s haven't been used in about 4 years now
Surely the traction knowledge has lapsed after four years unless FGW are getting them to deliberately retain that traction knowledge?
 

TEW

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There are some drivers who retained, or at least they used to retain Class 47 knowledge. Regular Class 47 usage ceased along time ago but they were used occasionally when a 57 wasn't available which is why some drivers kept up their knowledge.
 

Robbies

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Is there not an ETH converter vehicle that could be added to the sleeper set so that the Class 43 power cars could be added at either ends of the train rather than back to back?
 

ainsworth74

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There are some drivers who retained, or at least they used to retain Class 47 knowledge.
Fair enough. Seems a strange/expensive thing to keep on the drivers books when it would surely be easier to hire in someone else s 57.

Is there not an ETH converter vehicle that could be added to the sleeper set so that the Class 43 power cars could be added at either ends of the train rather than back to back?
ETH or it's modern name ETS refers to the power generated by locomotives and made available to coaching stock to power the lights, AC and various other electrical bits and pieces. There are no vehicles in existence that could convert Class 43 ETS into the standard LHCS ETS (though I'm sure, at a cost, that they could be built). As for running Class 43s at either end of the sleeper stock that's not something that the Mk3s are equipped for as whilst I assume they have standard RCH jumpers (though I'm not sure on that) I don't think the HST version of control signals is carried on standard RCH jumpers. That means that the Mk3s would need rewiring to include those signals and I don't think it's something that could be done with a converter vehicle.
 

HSTEd

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The HSTs have 36-way jumpers for control signals which are not fitted to any loco hauled sets.

I do wonder why they don't use some surplus Mark 3 sleeper cars converted into generator vans (like the ones converted for Nightstar), it would allow them to haul them with anything that was convenient.

I do hope that the coaches are fitted for either HST jumpers or TDM type equipment for a DVT if they are ever refurbished in the future (and not simply scrapped with the service)/
 

ainsworth74

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The HSTs have 36-way jumpers for control signals which are not fitted to any loco hauled sets.
Thanks for clearing that up.

I do wonder why they don't use some surplus Mark 3 sleeper cars converted into generator vans (like the ones converted for Nightstar), it would allow them to haul them with anything that was convenient.
Well the Mk3 sleepers are already compatible with standard locomotive ETS so they can receive ETS from everything that offers it apart from Class 43s that have their own version of it. So the market for a generator vehicle would be fairly small as it would pretty much only add 66s to the list of locomotives that can haul the sleepers in service. Seems like it would be an expesive way of adding flexibility and on the Scottish sleepers it would make the sets too long for Euston anyway.

I do hope that the coaches are fitted for either HST jumpers or TDM type equipment for a DVT if they are ever refurbished in the future (and not simply scrapped with the service)/
Doesn't TDM use normal RCH jumpers (I'm thinking about the GA 90s+Mk3s)? So the Mk3 sleepers should be already capable of being married up with a DVT or it shouldn't be hard to modify them at any rate. As for being scrapped the Night Rivera is safe for at least a little while yet as it's being specified as part of the Greater Western franchise.
 

IanXC

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Doesn't TDM use normal RCH jumpers (I'm thinking about the GA 90s+Mk3s)? So the Mk3 sleepers should be already capable of being married up with a DVT or it shouldn't be hard to modify them at any rate. As for being scrapped the Night Rivera is safe for at least a little while yet as it's being specified as part of the Greater Western franchise.
Another variation would be to equip the sleepers with DVTs with generators as Chiltern do. FGW seem to propel at Penzance as a regular movement so this could be beneficial. For Scotrail replacing the final brake in the consist with a DVT could allow them to propel into Euston, so saving a loco movement and replacing a Mark 2 and a 90 with a DVT, which ought to assist with the platform length issues should other Mark 2s be replaced with Mark 3s.

Slightly off topic, I know the Scottish sleeper refurbishment has gone quiet, but would the Mark 3 sleepers take power doors? Or are the vestibules too small as per the staff door on the Buffets? Certainly the interior doors between coaches would seem perfect to reduce noise levels on board.
 

sprinterguy

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Is there not an ETH converter vehicle that could be added to the sleeper set so that the Class 43 power cars could be added at either ends of the train rather than back to back?
There was a mark 1 generator vehicle converted for use on the Western Region to provide the three-phase train supply to HST mark 3 rakes in the late 70s/early 80s when BR operated a loco hauled HST mark 3 rake due to a lack of serviceable power cars. It has since been bought by Riviera Trains, and has been converted again so that it now provides standard ETS power to mark 1s and mark 2s. So that could be used to provide ETS power to loco hauled mark 3s, although it doesn't convert the supply from the power cars, but instead provides it's own power source.

Sounds like an awful lot of trouble to go to mind, and as has been outlined it would not be possible to operate the HST power cars in multiple due to the difference in their control systems. It's incredibly noisy too - You wouldn't want it to be coupled adjacent to the sleeping cars!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another variation would be to equip the sleepers with DVTs with generators as Chiltern do. FGW seem to propel at Penzance as a regular movement so this could be beneficial. For Scotrail replacing the final brake in the consist with a DVT could allow them to propel into Euston, so saving a loco movement and replacing a Mark 2 and a 90 with a DVT, which ought to assist with the platform length issues should other Mark 2s be replaced with Mark 3s.
I don't think that you would even have to remove a mark 2 from the Caledonian Sleeper in order to fit a DVT onto the rake, as the DVTs aren't much longer than the 90 that they would replace at one end of the train. Using a couple of DVTs on the sleepers could be a smart move. It would save a number of complex shunting and light engine moves at Euston, not least the movement of a class 90 across the station throat in the middle of the morning peak, having been released from the stock of one sleeper to then attach onto the country end of the second rake to take it out to Willesden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Doesn't TDM use normal RCH jumpers (I'm thinking about the GA 90s+Mk3s)? So the Mk3 sleepers should be already capable of being married up with a DVT or it shouldn't be hard to modify them at any rate. As for being scrapped the Night Rivera is safe for at least a little while yet as it's being specified as part of the Greater Western franchise.
You are absolutely right, the TDM system uses the standard RCH jumpers, so all of the loco hauled mark 3 vehicles, including the sleeper cars, are perfectly capable of working in push-pull mode automatically with any TDM fitted loco, no modifcation needed.

It is interesting to note that during the testing of the class 91s on the ECML when they were brand new, many of these test runs were formed up of redundant mark 3 sleepers, which worked in push-pull mode with a class 91 at one end and one of the converted "surrogate DVT" HST power cars that had been fitted with TDM equipment at the other.

Check out this image for proof: http://www.traintesting.com/images/43013 on test train Doncaster to BN 12-05-89.jpg
 
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ainsworth74

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Slightly off topic, I know the Scottish sleeper refurbishment has gone quiet, but would the Mark 3 sleepers take power doors? Or are the vestibules too small as per the staff door on the Buffets? Certainly the interior doors between coaches would seem perfect to reduce noise levels on board.
I don't think there would be room. The Mk3 SLEPs are very cramped for space. If you were to try and fit power doors (at least using the current method) you'd either have to sacrifice the berth attendants cabin at one end or the two toilets at the other (if not both actually). It's possible I suppose that the Mk3 SLEPs might end up being the last slam door stock in service.

which worked in push-pull mode with a class 91 at one end and one of the converted "surrogate DVT" HST power cars that had been fitted with TDM equipment at the other.
Those formations must have been great fun to drive, think of all that power that you'd have on tap!
 

TEW

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Fair enough. Seems a strange/expensive thing to keep on the drivers books when it would surely be easier to hire in someone else s 57.
It was probably cheaper to hire in 47s from Cotswold than it was to hire in any 57.
 

Robbies

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Well, the noise of the Class 43's with their new engines is a lot quieter and compares well to the noise that a Class 57 makes in taking the Mk3 Sleps, it is just a shame that there is spare Class 43's and it seems that not a lot is done with them other than be used in an emergency.

Just goes to show for me,, that we maybe should have kept hold of the nightstar stock rather than give them away to the Canadians.
 

ainsworth74

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Those 'spare' 43s are only spare because the sleeper runs at night, when they aren't needed. During the day those 43s will be very much in service. As far as I'm aware there are no spare 43s they're all in use.
 

IanXC

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I don't think that you would even have to remove a mark 2 from the Caledonian Sleeper in order to fit a DVT onto the rake, as the DVTs aren't much longer than the 90 that they would replace at one end of the train. Using a couple of DVTs on the sleepers could be a smart move. It would save a number of complex shunting and light engine moves at Euston, not least the movement of a class 90 across the station throat in the middle of the morning peak, having been released from the stock of one sleeper to then attach onto the country end of the second rake to take it out to Willesden.
I think you're probably right that a DVT could be in addition to rather than replacement for. I was thinking really of a way of retiring some of the oldest Mark 2 brakes.

I don't think there would be room. The Mk3 SLEPs are very cramped for space. If you were to try and fit power doors (at least using the current method) you'd either have to sacrifice the berth attendants cabin at one end or the two toilets at the other (if not both actually). It's possible I suppose that the Mk3 SLEPs might end up being the last slam door stock in service.
Hmm. Certainly the interior doors across the corridor connections would be a useful addition. I wonder if power doors on the 'corridor side' of the SLEPs, with them formed alternate ways around through the rake would be compliant! Affordable, if strange looking!
 

ainsworth74

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I wonder if power doors on the 'corridor side' of the SLEPs, with them formed alternate ways around through the rake would be compliant! Affordable, if strange looking!
Perhaps, but that could lead to issues with dwell time as you'd have to ensure that people knew in plenty of time when their station was coming up and which side of the train they were supposed to be on. This might not sound much of a problem but the corridors are so narrow that even a overnight type suitcase can be a problem to move down them and if you meet someone coming the other way either one of you has to back up or duck into an open berth! That's without considering the issues with ensuring that the sleepers remain constantly in the same formation ;)

Not impossible but it's certainly not a solution without it's own problems.

Edit: I'm not sure if everyone on this thread has been on a sleeper before but I've attached a picture of the corridor along one of the SLEPs just to give a sense of the size (and also you should get on the Night Riveria as soon as possible, it's great fun and not very expensive if you book as tickets are released!).
 

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