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FGW to convert First Class carriages

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swt_passenger

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Could the Penzance/Plymouth services be restricted to Pick up only in the Plymouth direction at Reading and Set down only in the Paddington direction at Reading if it's not already been done?

They've tried pick up and set down restrictions in the past, but apparently passengers just ignore them. The new station layout does now allow for an increased number of trains to pass Reading non-stop though. We might see more of that in the future...
 
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Flamingo

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I've just seen this thread. I have not had a briefing, so I don't know anything "official" on the subject.

I think all the main points have been covered in the thread already. In my opinion, this will not solve the perception of overcrowding on the Reading trains as enough Reading commuters will still be too lazy to walk down the train, and a logjam will still develop at the buffet car - making the area alongside the buffet a no-standing area and engaging in some crowd management would have a better result.

The main advantage of this will be seen on the Sunday afternoon and "shoulder" trains (which are the ones that experience the worst overcrowding). An extra carriage will not solve this problem, but may help a bit.

I still maintain, (despite arguments from Jimm to the contrary) that there is not an overcrowding issue on a majority of trains, especially the two first / six Std class trains. The extra 70 odd seats made the difference, and while having 1 1/2 First Class will probably be adequate, reducing to one first class on the sets with a mini-buffet will cause problems IMHO.

It is a perception problem, and FGW have always been afraid of upsetting the Thames Valley commuters, hence the total absence of Revenue Inspectors on this line - we can't be seen to PF somebody who might complain to their MP or press, and enforcing the "off-peak restrictions on the evening trains will only force passengers onto the already busy stopping services.

The perception is best illustrated by a complaint that was made against a colleague - he attempted to charge a season-ticket holder who was travelling in First (littering a vestibule), was roundly abused by this passenger and another for daring to check tickets, and a complaint came in alleging the guard had moved the passenger into a "dangerously overcrowded Standard Class". There were 116 empty seats on that train, in every carriage, which had been announced at least four times before a ticket check was carried out in First Class.

Will there be enough seats in First Class after this? Probably not, as if one is paying a full First Class fare, one is not paying to share the table with four other people.

Will this satisfy the Thames Valley commuters? Probably not, if we let them travel for free and chucked in breakfast they wouldn't like the sausages.
 
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jimm

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My point exactly.

But not mine - which was that nothing sells like a conveniently timed bit of good news. Like I said, the drive for redoubling came from within the rail industry two years earlier - not because some politician ordered it, which is quite clearly your implication. Mr Cameron was in opposition at the time all this was happening, so not in a position to order anything to happen!

They've tried pick up and set down restrictions in the past, but apparently passengers just ignore them. The new station layout does now allow for an increased number of trains to pass Reading non-stop though. We might see more of that in the future...

One or two trains might, but not very many, given that, after Birmingham New Street, Reading is just about the most important interchange station outside London these days, never mind the people who commute into Reading to work - not everyone is going to London, you know.

I've just seen this thread. I have not had a briefing, so I don't know anything "official" on the subject.

I think all the main points have been covered in the thread already. In my opinion, this will not solve the perception of overcrowding on the Reading trains as enough Reading commuters will still be too lazy to walk down the train, and a logjam will still develop at the buffet car - making the area alongside the buffet a no-standing area and engaging in some crowd management would have a better result.

The main advantage of this will be seen on the Sunday afternoon and "shoulder" trains (which are the ones that experience the worst overcrowding). An extra carriage will not solve this problem, but may help a bit.

I still maintain, (despite arguments from Jimm to the contrary) that there is not an overcrowding issue on a majority of trains, especially the two first / six Std class trains. The extra 70 odd seats made the difference, and while having 1 1/2 First Class will probably be adequate, reducing to one first class on the sets with a mini-buffet will cause problems IMHO.

It is a perception problem, and FGW have always been afraid of upsetting the Thames Valley commuters, hence the total absence of Revenue Inspectors on this line - we can't be seen to PF somebody who might complain to their MP or press, and enforcing the "off-peak restrictions on the evening trains will only force passengers onto the already busy stopping services.

The perception is best illustrated by a complaint that was made against a colleague - he attempted to charge a season-ticket holder who was travelling in First (littering a vestibule), was roundly abused by this passenger and another for daring to check tickets, and a complaint came in alleging the guard had moved the passenger into a "dangerously overcrowded Standard Class". There were 116 empty seats on that train, in every carriage, which had been announced at least four times before a ticket check was carried out in First Class.

Will there be enough seats in First Class after this? Probably not, as if one is paying a full First Class fare, one is not paying to share the table with four other people.

Will this satisfy the Thames Valley commuters? Probably not, if we let them travel for free and chucked in breakfast they wouldn't like the sausages.

While you may be new to this thread, even a cursory glance would show what the 'official line' is, as it's there right in the press release posted at the start. And you would also have discovered by reading it that there will be one-and-a-half first class coaches on every HST, with a composite coach G to be provided in the mini-buffet sets, which was discussed in another thread last autumn.

And I am not the only person who has made comment in this thread about heavy loadings in standard on some services well beyond Reading, while first class coaches are near-empty.

You then treat us to the now standard diatribe about how it's all the fault of the mysterious tribe know as the Reading commuter. They are probably closely related to the Oxford cyclist, who ignores red lights, rides on pavements, etc. Except that in both cases, just because there are a few bone-headed individuals, does not mean that everyone behaves like that.

If there are not going to be enough seats in first class after this, then perhaps you could tell us which FGW trains are carrying 90 to 100 first class passengers, paying full whack for their tickets, day in, day out? If there are lots of them, then a first class passenger is most assuredly paying to share a table with three other people.

Instead of anyone saying which trains these supposedly are, most people posting here opposing the change seem more concerned about retaining their 'right' to travel on first advances, knocked down by up to 60 per cent off a walk-up fare, on trips to the West Country.
 

Flamingo

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I was making the point that anything I said was not giving information that had been given to staff.

While you treat us to the standard diatribe that nobody travelling to Reading ever gets a seat, while the First Class carriages have two people in each of them, which is part of the perception problem I mentioned, as a lot of commuters going to Rdg (including you, it seems) seem to cherish their "Martyr" status.

On your other point, I think the Advanced First Class tickets can be underpriced, but I don't set them. A lot of trains do carry 40-60 First Class passengers, which will fill what is going to be available.
 
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jimm

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I was making the point that anything I said was not giving information that had been given to staff.

While you treat us to the standard diatribe that nobody travelling to Reading ever gets a seat, while the First Class carriages have two people in each of them, which is part of the perception problem I mentioned, as a lot of commuters going to Rdg (including you, it seems) seem to cherish their "Martyr" status.

On your other point, I think the Advanced First Class tickets can be underpriced, but I don't set them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was making the point that anything I said was not giving information that had been given to staff.

While you treat us to the standard diatribe that nobody travelling to Reading ever gets a seat, while the First Class carriages have two people in each of them, which is part of the perception problem I mentioned, as a lot of commuters going to Rdg (including you, it seems) seem to cherish their "Martyr" status.

On your other point, I think the Advanced First Class tickets can be underpriced, but I don't set them. A lot of trains do carry 40-60 First Class passengers, which will fill what is going to be available.

I am not a Reading commuter, nor am I a martyr.

I did not treat you to the standard diatribe that no-one from Reading ever gets a seat. What I said on the subject of Reading, back up the thread, in post 31, on page 3, was

and while there are undoubtedly issues with passengers not moving down trains to find seats, there are plenty of Thames Valley peak services which are so crowded that it doesn't make a blind bit of difference which coach you're in - they're all packed.

Nor, in my later post, did I say that the first class carriages have two people in each of them. On the journey I was commenting on, there were all of three people left in two-and-a-half first class coaches just 90 miles out of London. There would undoubtedly have been more passengers using them between London, Reading and Oxford, but nowhere near enough to justify the provision of more than 100 first class seats.

I agree with you entirely about a typical count of 40 to 60 first class passengers on a lot of HSS services, which is why I don't see this change as a big issue, as it makes better use of the space available.

And if it means a cut in the quota of first advances and higher prices for those that are made available, so be it. First class is supposed to be a premium product, bringing in a big return financially.
 

Bishopstone

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A lot of trains do carry 40-60 First Class passengers, which will fill what is going to be available.

If 1.5 coaches of First gives 60-70 seats, there won't be a problem, then.

Standard passengers are reminded often enough that a ticket buys you travel, not a guarantee of a seat. In First, a ticket will buy you a seat, not a bay of 2 or 4.
 

Aictos

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Personally FGW Management should do more with crowd management as if there's plenty of seats available, there's no reason to be crowding the buffet coach and complain there's no seats - it's not fair on the frontline staff to be between a brick wall and this issue.

I mean what makes the Thames Valley commuters so much more important then other commuter routes like Kings Cross to Peterborough/Cambridge, Newcastle to Edinburgh, Waterloo to Woking etc... personally FGW has been far too soft on the Thames Valley and should get RPIs out and about rather then treat them with kid gloves :roll:
 

IanXC

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In my opinion, this will not solve the perception of overcrowding on the Reading trains as enough Reading commuters will still be too lazy to walk down the train, and a logjam will still develop at the buffet car - making the area alongside the buffet a no-standing area and engaging in some crowd management would have a better result.

Has turning the sets around ever been tried? If the problem is people not walking down the train, then putting First Class at the country end could solve this?

Clearly First Class passengers would be inconvenienced, but would they be happier not to have Standard passengers all over the place? Maybe more assistance buggies would be required, or even travelators like Manchester Piccadilly would be required.
 

Greenback

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Having the first class at the London end used to make it so convenient for the Reading first class commuters, as the carriages were very handily placed for the old overbridge that provide dmost of the access to the fast London trains from both the car park and main concourse at Reading.

Perhaps FGW will consider moving the first class accommodation now, to reflect the fact that the arrangements at Reading have changed?

To be a bit more serious, I've never really understood the logic of having the first class at the London end on any route. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say I have understood it, but don't agree with it, for exactly the reasons you've stated, Ian!
 

route:oxford

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Having the first class at the London end used to make it so convenient for the Reading first class commuters, as the carriages were very handily placed for the old overbridge that provide dmost of the access to the fast London trains from both the car park and main concourse at Reading.

Perhaps FGW will consider moving the first class accommodation now, to reflect the fact that the arrangements at Reading have changed?

To be a bit more serious, I've never really understood the logic of having the first class at the London end on any route. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say I have understood it, but don't agree with it, for exactly the reasons you've stated, Ian!

More so now with the Circle line being furthest away from 1st class at London.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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If 1.5 coaches of First gives 60-70 seats, there won't be a problem, then.

Standard passengers are reminded often enough that a ticket buys you travel, not a guarantee of a seat. In First, a ticket will buy you a seat, not a bay of 2 or 4.

Whenever I have travelled in, or looked at first class on FGW IC services they have always been very busy, so perhaps the answer is, instead of reducing first class capacity, keep it as it is now, but do like Virgin have done and add one or two more standard class carriages, there seem to be plenty or spare MK3s that could be updated and added to the network.
 

jimm

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Whenever I have travelled in, or looked at first class on FGW IC services they have always been very busy, so perhaps the answer is, instead of reducing first class capacity, keep it as it is now, but do like Virgin have done and add one or two more standard class carriages, there seem to be plenty or spare MK3s that could be updated and added to the network.

I'm afraid they're simply not as busy as they were. There is an excess of first class accommodation on most services and plenty where more standard class seats would be most welcome - in a region where the latest station footfall statistics continue to show growth in passenger numbers.

And could you tell us where all these spare Mk3s are? Most of those not in traffic are owned by DB, presumably being held as a reserve should they decide Chiltern needs more loco-powered sets. Porterbrook clearly can't get its hands on any, hence the current conversion of more redundant buffet cars into standard opens for FGW.
 

jopsuk

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to lengthen every single FGW HST by another carriage requires 54 of them. I doubt you've seen more a single rake of 6-10. I have asked a couple of times in this thread whether there are 54 "spare" mark 3s- I'd include the ones owned by DB, any with charter companies etc in that, as they could in theory be purchased. It is a lot of carriages!

Of the 54 FGW HSTs, what's the split between "High Capacity" and "Far West" configurations?
 

Buttsy

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I have noticed quite a few near crew, perhaps they are all spoken for then.

There is a major difference in the electrics in a loco-hauled Mk3 and a HST Mk3. The HST Mk3 runs on 415v DC whereas the loco hauled ones work on AC (sorry, don't know the voltage) and so you have to rewire the loco-hauled Mk3 to make it work with a HST Mk3, which no doubt costs more than re-fitting a 1st class HST Mk3 as a Standard class one.
 

jopsuk

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You're not quite right- as I understand it, the HSTs have a 415V three phase AC power line between carriages (a common industrial standard for high power applications, if you ever see large round red power outlets and plugs they're 415V Three Phase), whilst loco hauled have a nominal 230-240V single phase AC line (industrial supplies use large blue circular sockets/plugs).
(the other industrial AC supply, yellow plugs and sockets, is 110V single phase).

Anyway, given that the last batch of carriages added to FGW HSTs involved converting buffets to passenger accommodation, which meant cutting larger windows into the bodywork, rewiring (which has been done repeatedly before- not sure if Grand Central have a single carriage built for the HST fleet?) is relatively minor!
 

Buttsy

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You're not quite right- as I understand it, the HSTs have a 415V three phase AC power line between carriages (a common industrial standard for high power applications, if you ever see large round red power outlets and plugs they're 415V Three Phase), whilst loco hauled have a nominal 230-240V single phase AC line (industrial supplies use large blue circular sockets/plugs).
(the other industrial AC supply, yellow plugs and sockets, is 110V single phase).

Anyway, given that the last batch of carriages added to FGW HSTs involved converting buffets to passenger accommodation, which meant cutting larger windows into the bodywork, rewiring (which has been done repeatedly before- not sure if Grand Central have a single carriage built for the HST fleet?) is relatively minor!

Thanks for that, knew they were something different, didn't quite know what though.

I concur that re-wiring existing Mk3 loco-hauled coaches would have been cheaper than converting buffets, but I would wager that re-jigging seats will be cheaper than re-wiring. :)
 

455driver

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ETS (or ETH in old money) is 1000V DC nominal but on the Southern region the ETH(SR) was 750V DC nominal.
That is then put through a motor alternator on each carriage to produce the other voltages required.

A HST is 415V AC which is a 3 phase supply which does away with the MA sets.
 

MrJamesBrown

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16 Low Density
19 High Density
18 Super High Density

What's the differences between the three types, I though that FGW only had High and Low Density. With High Density have 2 tables per carriage and Low Density having 4 tables per carriage.

Thanks

James
 

TEW

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Super High Density sets have 6 standard class and 2 first class carriages with micro buffet. High Density have 5 standard and 2.5 first with a full buffet. Both have 2 tables per carriage. Low Density is the same formation as High Density but with 4 tables per carriage. Some High Density sets don't have full kitchens suitable for Pullman services and have slightly more First Class seats in the buffet carriage.
 

cjmillsnun

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You're not quite right- as I understand it, the HSTs have a 415V three phase AC power line between carriages (a common industrial standard for high power applications, if you ever see large round red power outlets and plugs they're 415V Three Phase), whilst loco hauled have a nominal 230-240V single phase AC line (industrial supplies use large blue circular sockets/plugs).
(the other industrial AC supply, yellow plugs and sockets, is 110V single phase).

Anyway, given that the last batch of carriages added to FGW HSTs involved converting buffets to passenger accommodation, which meant cutting larger windows into the bodywork, rewiring (which has been done repeatedly before- not sure if Grand Central have a single carriage built for the HST fleet?) is relatively minor!

I think GC have TGS vehicles from the original fleet ;)
 

MrJamesBrown

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Super High Density sets have 6 standard class and 2 first class carriages with micro buffet. High Density have 5 standard and 2.5 first with a full buffet. Both have 2 tables per carriage. Low Density is the same formation as High Density but with 4 tables per carriage. Some High Density sets don't have full kitchens suitable for Pullman services and have slightly more First Class seats in the buffet carriage.

Thanks Tew

One more little question, what
 

TEW

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Well I rode on one of the newly converted ex-buffet carriages today and can confirm that it did indeed have 8 tables. I imagine it will be a very similar layout to that the carriages converted from First Class will receive.
 

Bishopstone

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Also on this topic, a fGW tweet last week seemed to confirm there would be no Quiet Zone in First Class under the new arrangements, although they will be installing some partitions - presumably to restrict the distance noise travels given the expected higher occupancy of First.
 

Goatboy

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I was on an HST yesterday which was surprisingly formed of only 4 standard class coaches but 2xFirst and 1xFirst/Buffet.

I had no idea they had any HST's in this configuration. I'm a vocal critic of the plan to ruin long distance travellers ability to travel First Class on Intercity trains to satisfy Reading commuters but even I have to concede this seemed an odd First/Standard split.
 
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