FGW to convert First Class carriages

[jopsuk]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere (think it could have been on the "Rail Alphabet" site with the design manuals from the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s) that yellow above first class, red above catering came not from BR but from a UIC standard that BR adopted?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The yellow first class stripe was introduced onto Britain's railways in the mid-1960s and was a very useful way for waiting passengers to identify where the accommodation was on arriving trains. Privatisation has seen a complete ruination of the principle, (along with so many other tried and tested practices) but some operators do retain usefully visible stripes. However, even these are rendered next-to-useless if they are not kept relevant to the accommodation above which they sit.

This goes back to before privatisation; in NSE days my parents were giving an older man a lift and they drove past Epsom station; there was an 8 car NSE liveried rake in platform 1 at the time, and the man said:

"Look at all those buffet cars!"

 

[starrymarkb]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere (think it could have been on the "Rail Alphabet" site with the design manuals from the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s) that yellow above first class, red above catering came not from BR but from a UIC standard that BR adopted?

Yellow does seem a common denominator in Europe, Though SNCF and DB Intercity don't use it. SBB and DB Regio do

 

[jimm]

The yellow first class stripe was introduced onto Britain's railways in the mid-1960s and was a very useful way for waiting passengers to identify where the accommodation was on arriving trains. Privatisation has seen a complete ruination of the principle, (along with so many other tried and tested practices) but some operators do retain usefully visible stripes. However, even these are rendered next-to-useless if they are not kept relevant to the accommodation above which they sit. This is especially annoying if, as in the case of the 166s, the first class is at the extreme ends of the units. By the way, I'm not bemoaning the loss of some first class - it is sound to align accommodation provision with passenger demand, but I despair at yet another example of shoddy work on today's railways.

Sorry, but how is 'several sets' wrong in the context in which I wrote it? I didn't say every 166 had the problem, only several. Some 166s have been treated correctly, while several have not. 166201 was this morning's example (see photo).

Sorry, misunderstood what you were getting at, but the fact remains that passengers have managed to work out for themselves that these compartments have been declassified, whether or not there is a yellow stripe. The loss of the eye-level big figure 1, locking open of the internal doors and removal of antimacassars have done the trick.

My regular journeys involve a mix of HSTs, 180s and Turbos and an awful lot of first class passengers are absolutely certain that first class is at the London end of everything, whether or not there is a yellow stripe. On a good few occasions, people march into coach A on 180s or A and B on reverse-formation HSTs and then look a bit puzzled, before turning round and heading off the other way.

Others have pointed out that a stuck-on bit of vinyl on top of more vinyl would not last long - carriage washers aren't exactly gentle. And the Turbos are heading for works soon anyway.

If the North Downs service is as bad as you claim, I'd suggest urging FGW to sort that out is a rather bigger issue than a bit of coloured vinyl.

 

[Metrailway]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere (think it could have been on the "Rail Alphabet" site with the design manuals from the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s) that yellow above first class, red above catering came not from BR but from a UIC standard that BR adopted?

I believe it was initially introduced on the GER surburban services in 1920, hence the old nickname 'the Jazz' for surburban services out of Liverpool Street. It was introduced to allow customers at intemediate stations to quickly board the correct carriage and reduce dwell times. Yellow was first, blue for second, red for catering, and nothing for third. As far as I know it was lost at grouping.

BR Southern introduced the yellow and red cantrail stripes (via a UIC standard) on boat trains in 1960, which then later spread across BR.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

As part of this current refurb will the standard carriages lose any more tables? As I am sure that they all currently have at least 2 tables. Whereas the HST that I caught on Thursday didn't have any tables in Coach C

 

[TEW]

Coach C has always had that layout. In High Density sets the 2 tables are at the 2 disabled spaces. Standard Class will be gaining more tables as part of the conversion of First Class carriages. The newly converted complete Standard Class carriages will have 8 tables. I'm not sure how many the new composite carriages will have.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was on a HST that had eight tables in Standard Class yesterday. It looked really bizarre indeed!

 

[Manchester77]

I was on a HST that had eight tables in Standard Class yesterday. It looked really bizarre indeed!

Didn't realise they'd even done one yet!
What's the interior like is it similar to what they had already or have the colours been changed?

 

[TEW]

There are 5 that have been done already. These are conversions from buffets and not First Class carriages though. The interiors are the same as on other HST coaches, just with a different seating layout. As with previous buffet conversions there is only one toilet, with the space for the other toilet used for extra luggage space instead.

 

[Flamingo]

Given the purpose of the exercise is to maximise the number of Std class seats, I don't follow the logic of having eight tables in the new coaches. All we've been told is the inevitable "following customer feedback"...

 

[TEW]

I haven't actually counted all the seats individually but I don't think seating capacity is that low. The seat numbers still go up to 80, but I'm not sure how many numbers are missing in the middle.

 

[Manchester77]

If they go up to 80 then will that the tables are smaller than usual?

 

[TEW]

The tables are the same size. Legroom looked a little tight to me, but then legroom has never been great at tables on FGW HSTs.

 

[Goldfish62]

Barry Doe in Rail says that FGW have confirmed that 1st Advance fares will be abolished due to the reduced accommodation.

What a way to run a railway!

 

[All Line Rover]

I doubt it. The cheapest tier, maybe, but if they abolished all 1st Advance fares I'm sure they'd be back within a few weeks. TPE and LM provide 1st Advance fares for a tiny amount of First Class accommodation, and Virgin (Voyagers), CrossCountry and Hull Trains all provide them despite having only 1 First Class coach.

 

[Flamingo]

I have a briefing for staff in my pocket about the new First Class refurbishment that says

"Q: Does this mean FGW won't be offering Advanced Purchase fares in First Class?
A: FGW will continue to offer a full range of good value First Class fares"

Read into this what you will.

 

[TEW]

Reservations for First Class change from May with, AFAIK, reservations only available in one carriage, L. There still seems to be a good availability of First Class AP from May.

 

[jon0844]

"Q: Does this mean FGW won't be offering Advanced Purchase fares in First Class?
A: FGW will continue to offer a full range of good value First Class fares"

Read into this what you will.

Haha! The perfect politicians' answer!

What a shame too, as I'd quite like to use FGW in the summer to go back down to Cornwall, and I'd seek to go first class. I presume weekend first will still exist, but that wouldn't be much good if we went down in the week.

Hopefully FGW will only ever restrict advance tickets on the busy services, but not on quieter trains during the daytime (excluding holidays or big events) as it would be stupid otherwise.

 

[TEW]

There's still availability on some trains at the cheapest First Class AP level in July, where reservations and AP quotas are based on one carriage of First Class being available. If you're going to Bristol or Cardiff nearly all Off-Peak trains have the lowest band of First Class AP available.

 

[LexyBoy]

I'm not convinced FGW do a good job with 1st Advances anyway. At weekends and holiday times 1st can be packed, whilst in the week it is usually very quiet. On East Coast I have noticed 1st being well used in the peak and shoulder-peak, even when standard isn't packed. Maybe this is down to EC travellers being more likely to use AP tickets than FGW due to the longer distances.

Barry Doe in Rail says that FGW have confirmed that 1st Advance fares will be abolished due to the reduced accommodation.

What a way to run a railway!

Even if true which it appears is not the case, the converse seems more persuasive to me: "FGW decide to limit the provision of Standard, which is frequently standing room only, in order to give some leisure travellers cheap tickets in first"

 

[gareth950]

So I've just received my 1st Advance tickets for June, with reserved seats in coach L. I'm cautious about this however. If there is a coach L, that would imply that there are now 12 coaches on FGW Swansea - Cardiff - London services (A, B, C , D, E , F , G , H , I , J , K, L) which there obviously isn't.

Will I definitely have a reserved seat? My faith in the new First class arrangements on FGW hasn't been helped by my experience travelling back from London -- Cardiff before Easter, when I had a 1st advance reservation in coach G, yet coach G was missing from the train so I was literally squeezed into coach H.

If first class on FGW is now going to be cattle class with some added leg room and refreshments, I might go standard in the future

 

[ainsworth74]

It is not at all uncommon for formations to skip letters. For example EC electric sets are B, C, D, E, F, H, K, L and M

 

[TEW]

Coach L is the new carriage letter for First Class from the May timetable change.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is not at all uncommon for formations to skip letters. For example EC electric sets are B, C, D, E, F, H, K, L and M

Indeed 'I' would almost never be used in any form of lettering scheme, due to confusion with '1'. I guess 'O' would be outside most known train lengths, but would be equally unlikely to be used for the same reason...

 

[LexyBoy]

FGW have carriage 'X' on some summer services too.

I had my first converted coach this morning, found it felt noticeably more spacious than usual with the extra tables - my second biggest gripe with FGW in standard is the cramped feeling from very high-backed seats plus very few tables, so it's promising if this is a taste of things to come.

 

[TEW]

Coach X isn't for passenger use though. It's just used a place to store luggage, particularly surf boards. If the sleeper service has an extra seated carriage as it can do on the busiest days that is labelled as X.

 

[sd0733]

I haven't actually counted all the seats individually but I don't think seating capacity is that low. The seat numbers still go up to 80, but I'm not sure how many numbers are missing in the middle.

I was on one of the new refurbs earlier (42519), according to the data panel on the coach end it has got 80 seats. To me there seems much less legroom than to the other sets which explains how they've got 80 seats and 8 tables in there.

 

[455driver]

42519 isnt a converted 1st class carriage though, it has been converted from ex Virgin TSB 40416 which has been in store for over 10 years.

 

[TEW]

Yes, but 42516-42520 have only just been converted and have been given the same layout as the converted First Class carriages will have.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on one of the new refurbs earlier (42519), according to the data panel on the coach end it has got 80 seats. To me there seems much less legroom than to the other sets which explains how they've got 80 seats and 8 tables in there.

Yes, I certainly have got the impression that leg room has been sacrificed when travelling on the new coaches.