FGW to convert First Class carriages

[jimm]

:roll: Nice try. Go back and look again at what I have said.

You're just looking silly now.

I'm looking silly?

I've looked at what you said and I'm none the wiser. If it is that cutting first class seating is the wrong thing to do, then it surely follows what you are saying is they should just leave it as it was, never mind that empty seats by the dozen have been running up and down until now - and still are on many trains. Or maybe not, but we'll clearly never know.

I travelled back from Perranporth to Hemel Hempstead and was home two hours before the equivalent train (from Truro) would have got me there. There are no direct winter trains to Newquay, assuming you are able to get a direct train to Par the train journey still involves a change and an hour on a 153. The train takes as long to get from Par to Newquay, a distance of 20 miles, as the plane does from London.

Also First Great Western get subsidised by 6.5p per passenger mile.

If First Great Western want to cut the quality of their service, and increase prices, then I'm sure Flybe will be happy to take their custom from Exeter and Newquay. The four-hour gap in the middle of the day from Cornwall is already bad enough.

Cost-conscious passengers will probably take the train as it is cheaper, but those with some money in their pocket have choices. FGW would be on dangerous ground if they just assumed that those on first class advance tickets (and £90 each way full price- I paid £65 with a railcard- is not cheap) would trade down to standard rather than look for alternatives. Perhaps they don't care and are happy to lose that custom.

Amazing, flying is faster. But as you admit, it takes just a tad longer door to door than that 50-minute flight time.

I'm not sure that Flybe are exactly going to corner the market, given that they are providing all of 230 or so seats a day in either direction, so not even half an HST's worth. And that is only with the help of the nice subsidy, so can't really see they would be able to afford to operate more flights, even if every first class passenger abandoned FGW.

The rail journey time I noted using the 12.06 is with a change at Par and is available all year round and is faster then any of the through HSTs by five or 10 minutes.

And yes, trains on the branch take forever. No wonder, given its origins as a mineral tramway, with the best alignment for HSTs, 150s or 153s not being top of the list of priorities for its builders.

There is also a new Flybe service from Exeter Airport.

A round Trip Exeter 06.35 arr City 07:55 dep city 16:40 arr Exeter 17:55 costs £174.98. Journey Time 1h 20 each way.

In comparison FGW first train 05.46, arrives Paddington 08.38 2h52 mins. £236 standard class anytime return £373 first class anytime, return same day in the peak.

SWT 05.10 Exeter -Waterloo arr 08.38 3h 36m £120 standard anytime return £199.20 first class anytime return same day in the peak.

And again, flybe is providing 230 or so seats a day each way to and from Exeter, while FGW and SWT provide just a few more.

If flying is such an amazing crowd-puller, could you explain what happened to Plymouth airport - and why Newquay needs that subsidy? Even Ryanair couldn't make it pay, which says a lot.

 

[21C101]

And again, flybe is providing 230 or so seats a day each way to and from Exeter, while FGW and SWT provide just a few more.

If flying is such an amazing crowd-puller, could you explain what happened to Plymouth airport - and why Newquay needs that subsidy? Even Ryanair couldn't make it pay, which says a lot.

Maybe because Exeter is a more business oriented destination and also because Flybe are going to London City Airport, no little further from Bank by DLR than Paddington is by Circle line, whereas from Newquay you end up in deepest Sussex at Gatwick Airport and have an hour journey on from the city with a change to tube in London?

Might be 3 a day at the moment, but if it is successful, I suspect it will grow.

What I found a real surprise is that the first FGW service, the 05.46 takes nearly 3 hours to London arriving at Paddington at 08.38, making arrival in the city before 09.00 impossible, there is a much faster service at 06.52 but this gets to Paddington at 09.00 making a 09.30 arrival in the city impossible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Amazing, flying is faster. But as you admit, it takes just a tad longer door to door than that 50-minute flight time.

Who said it took exactly 50 minutes? You have to be at the airport at least half an hour before departure, for one thing (but then you'd be a fool if you aimed to be at the station for your booked Advance ticket train 30 seconds before departure). It doesn't, however, take five hours, even when you factor in 45 minutes for the Gatwick Express.

I'm not sure that Flybe are exactly going to corner the market, given that they are providing all of 230 or so seats a day in either direction, so not even half an HST's worth. And that is only with the help of the nice subsidy, so can't really see they would be able to afford to operate more flights, even if every first class passenger abandoned FGW.

My point is that First Great Western shouldn't assume that people who travel first class will downgrade to standard class because "the journey may be essential but first class isn't". People will choose on many factors: speed, comfort, price, convenient timing. When I go on my holidays down to Cornwall I wouldn't downgrade to standard class for that length of journey, I would fly instead. I'm almost certain I'm not alone. Given the number of business people on my flight back last week, I'm definitely certain I'm not alone.

I also don't understand your point about Flybe being subsidised, as though this means the flying option isn't sustainable. First Great Western get almost 7p per passenger mile in subsidy, so perhaps the train isn't sustainable either?

 

[D6975]

I didn't know you can reserve a seat when the train has departed and already on the move now.

Actually you can with some TOCs.
XC is one that you can.
The display sometimes says that the seat is currently free but may become reserved during the journey.

 

[Bishopstone]

Cost-conscious passengers will probably take the train as it is cheaper, but those with some money in their pocket have choices. FGW would be on dangerous ground if they just assumed that those on first class advance tickets (and £90 each way full price- I paid £65 with a railcard- is not cheap) would trade down to standard rather than look for alternatives. Perhaps they don't care and are happy to lose that custom.

If they have money in their pockets, perhaps some will trade-up to First Anytime/Off Peak (where available) if the Advances run out?

Perceptions of value differ, but I consider £90 London-Newquay to be a good price. There will be half a dozen passes of the trolley, very comfortable seating and - even at 1.5 coaches - the likelihood that for the majority of the journey, a couple will get a bay of four to themselves - or a single traveller one of the bays of two. Obviously, I exclude summer Saturdays and Friday evenings year-round from that comment.

We can speculate now, or just wait and see what the situation is in twelve months. My prediction - barring another economic slump - is that there will be no exodus; average First Class ticket prices AND occupancy will increase, and FGW will make more money than ever from this premium service.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perceptions of value differ, but I consider £90 London-Newquay to be a good price. There will be half a dozen passes of the trolley, very comfortable seating and - even at 1.5 coaches - the likelihood that for the majority of the journey, a couple will get a bay of four to themselves - or a single traveller one of the bays of two.

I think £90, about the median price for the advance tiers, was a good price for London to Truro and I was happy to pay it. I'm not quite so certain that the Anytime 1st return, a snip at £399, represents quite such good value.

Every time I've travelled down I've not had a bay to myself, even when the HSTs were longer. Paddington to Truro is a busy flow and plenty of people make the full journey. I've never been down in the depths of winter though.

 

[starrymarkb]

And again, flybe is providing 230 or so seats a day each way to and from Exeter, while FGW and SWT provide just a few more.

If flying is such an amazing crowd-puller, could you explain what happened to Plymouth airport - and why Newquay needs that subsidy? Even Ryanair couldn't make it pay, which says a lot.

Plymouth was very restricted in what aircraft it could take by the runway length ie 50 seat turboprops. Flybes 80 seat Q400s were too big to get in there.

Air South West were using older 50 seat Pre-Q Dash 8-300s on the Plymouth Route, so they didn't have the most modern engines. This meant that Flybe's Q400s from Exeter could carry 50% more passengers while using less fuel per trip!

 

[jimm]

Who said it took exactly 50 minutes? You have to be at the airport at least half an hour before departure, for one thing (but then you'd be a fool if you aimed to be at the station for your booked Advance ticket train 30 seconds before departure). It doesn't, however, take five hours, even when you factor in 45 minutes for the Gatwick Express.

You made the following statement - no mention of all the extra time that flying obviously involves, while also coming up with pretty much the most extended London-Newquay rail journey time possible, presumably for effect to show just how slow the train is by comparison. Never mind that day after day, far more people will use the trains between Cornwall and London.

I compare First Class with air travel because the speed is part of the comfort. Flybe take 50 minutes from Newquay to Gatwick. First Great Western take 5h40,

My point is that First Great Western shouldn't assume that people who travel first class will downgrade to standard class because "the journey may be essential but first class isn't". People will choose on many factors: speed, comfort, price, convenient timing. When I go on my holidays down to Cornwall I wouldn't downgrade to standard class for that length of journey, I would fly instead. I'm almost certain I'm not alone. Given the number of business people on my flight back last week, I'm definitely certain I'm not alone.

I also don't understand your point about Flybe being subsidised, as though this means the flying option isn't sustainable. First Great Western get almost 7p per passenger mile in subsidy, so perhaps the train isn't sustainable either?

You talk about downgrading but many would argue first advances are devaluing/downgrading first class, having been sold at rates little different from a standard ticket. That people will buy them at rock-bottom rates is not an argument for retaining lots of first class seats that never have anyone paying a full-whack first class fare sat in them.

And since we have yet to be presented with a list of which West Country services first class is now supposedly full and standing on, with full-fare ticketholders reduced to sitting in steerage, I'll not be shedding too many tears for those who make such a fuss about first advances.

You may not be alone, but three Dash-8s-worth of passengers a day each way - and that assumes they fill every seat - is a drop in the ocean compared to the volumes on rail.

Yes, FGW gets a subsidy, but lots of FGW routes, such as the Newquay branch, will never ever wash their faces financially in a million years, so need some support. On the other hand, there are routes which turn in a tidy profit and FGW is paying DfT a £32.5m premium in 2013-15. And that FGW subsidy is supporting all sorts of passengers, not just those lucky enough to be able to afford - or have a business paying for them - to fly.

Without the subsidy, it is clear enough that the Newquay flights are not commercially viable, end of story. Nothing to do with sustainability. Question is, should we have to foot the bill as taxpayers? Airlines don't have to pay any tax on their fuel, unlike the railways. How much of that FGW subsidy is simply going round in a circle back to the Treasury in fuel duty?

 

[rmt4ever]

What next? Cutting down the first class on 2 car turbos?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking about it, could fGW consider the "hybrid coach" as VT have on the Voyagers (a small number of Voyagers have two of them after the 4 to 5 car reforms). They are popular with Standard ticket holders during the day due to being all tables with full window alignment, but are also used for First Class service in the peaks.

A fGW equivalent could perhaps be identical to the normal First Class but with 2+2 seating.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

You made the following statement - no mention of all the extra time that flying obviously involves, while also coming up with pretty much the most extended London-Newquay rail journey time possible, presumably for effect to show just how slow the train is by comparison. Never mind that day after day, far more people will use the trains between Cornwall and London.

You're not a worried First Great Western manager are you or something?

The trains from Newquay tomorrow to Paddington are as follows:

1013 - takes 5h08 (one change)
1303 - takes 5h18 (two changes) or 6h21 (one change)
1501 - takes 5h38 (two changes) or 6h23 (one change)
1722 - takes 6h19 (one change)
2126 - takes 7h47 (one change, on to the Night Riviera)

The flight time is 50 minutes (I note you're not disputing this, instead muddying the water with "getting there early time") but Flybe timetable 1h15. Add 1h30 to that flight time to factor in standing around in airport security with no shoes on and waiting for the Gatwick Express and the plane is still twice as fast as the train. And the plane is the only way to get to London for morning business meetings, the people who attend morning business meetings really being the only ones who would ever consider a FOR.

Don't forget to add 30 minutes to the train time, to factor in the time to "get to the station in time for your train".

You talk about downgrading but many would argue first advances are devaluing/downgrading first class, having been sold at rates little different from a standard ticket. That people will buy them at rock-bottom rates is not an argument for retaining lots of first class seats that never have anyone paying a full-whack first class fare sat in them.

I'm assuming that's the official FGW justification now?

It's funny how ATOC tie themselves in knots with this. The cheaper Advance fares justify the eye-watering Anytime fares, apparently, because the majority of people don't buy walk-up tickets. Yet the cheaper Advance fares "devalue a premium product". Which is it? It can't be both.

I'm assuming standard class Advance tickets "devalue" standard class too? After all, most people in standard won't be paying "full whack", and ATOC actually celebrate this as a good thing. Is it somehow different in standard?

On the other hand, there are routes which turn in a tidy profit and FGW is paying DfT a £32.5m premium in 2013-15. And that FGW subsidy is supporting all sorts of passengers, not just those lucky enough to be able to afford - or have a business paying for them - to fly.

FGW receives- overall- a subsidy of 6.4p per passenger mile (up from 4.5p last year). It's all on the DafT website. Have a look. It's interesting how one service is "making a profit" and one is "not commercially sustainable".

But whilst all this is fascinating stuff, you've not actually explained why I'm wrong. People who would buy Advance tickets in first won't necessarily downgrade to standard, they'll look at alternative transport. That may even be the intention, because if everyone in first class did downgrade to standard the "significant capacity increase" FGW are shouting about would be about 25-30 seats on a full HST set.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What next? Cutting down the first class on 2 car turbos?

Personally I'd remove the First Class entirely on the commuter services, it is a waste of space to have it at all on any train that is regularly leaving people on the platform. They already reduced it on the 166s to one end.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm assuming standard class Advance tickets "devalue" standard class too? After all, most people in standard won't be paying "full whack", and ATOC actually celebrate this as a good thing. Is it somehow different in standard?

The majority of people in Standard probably use Off Peak Returns, to the point that most people consider that "full whack" and that the peak fares are penalties for travelling in the peak.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

The majority of people in Standard probably use Off Peak Returns, to the point that most people consider that "full whack" and that the peak fares are penalties for travelling in the peak.

ATOC claimed recently on the Today Programme that "half of people buy in advance". ATOC claimed, in 2012, that "four out of five people are using an advance ticket or a railcard".

There are very few people in standard paying "full whack".

 

[Bletchleyite]

ATOC claimed recently on the Today Programme that "half of people buy in advance".

If that is the precise wording, be careful. That does not rule out buying Off-Peak or Anytime tickets in advance of travel, which is what a lot of long-distance passengers do so they can have reservations.

ATOC claimed, in 2012, that "four out of five people are using an advance ticket or a railcard".

I would be interested in the two splits there. I expect that given that proportionally more younger and older people travel by train, then you've got Network Railcards and Gold Cards and Family Railcards, that Railcards may well tip the scales more than Advance tickets.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

Are you weighting it by £ off? % discount? Railcards give much smaller discounts than some advances, but in some cases a larger one. What about returns? You can't always compare 2 advances to a return. And here's the killer - what about railcard discounted advances?

I'm afraid no conclusion whatsoever can be drawn from that without a shedload of data and some rigorous analysis.

 

[GodAtum]

Personally I'd remove the First Class entirely on the commuter services, it is a waste of space to have it at all on any train that is regularly leaving people on the platform. They already reduced it on the 166s to one end.

The most miserable expereince is getting an afternoon train from Maidenhead to Paddington. Lots of kids sitting in 1st class and no enforcement. I hope they keep the 1st class compartments and up enforcement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most miserable expereince is getting an afternoon train from Maidenhead to Paddington. Lots of kids sitting in 1st class and no enforcement. I hope they keep the 1st class compartments and up enforcement.

Taking any kind of fGW Thames Valley service is a miserable experience, whatever time of day and whatever class you choose.

Will Crossrail have first class, I wonder?

Neil

 

[jimm]

You're not a worried First Great Western manager are you or something?

The trains from Newquay tomorrow to Paddington are as follows:

1013 - takes 5h08 (one change)
1303 - takes 5h18 (two changes) or 6h21 (one change)
1501 - takes 5h38 (two changes) or 6h23 (one change)
1722 - takes 6h19 (one change)
2126 - takes 7h47 (one change, on to the Night Riviera)

The flight time is 50 minutes (I note you're not disputing this, instead muddying the water with "getting there early time") but Flybe timetable 1h15. Add 1h30 to that flight time to factor in standing around in airport security with no shoes on and waiting for the Gatwick Express and the plane is still twice as fast as the train. And the plane is the only way to get to London for morning business meetings, the people who attend morning business meetings really being the only ones who would ever consider a FOR.

Don't forget to add 30 minutes to the train time, to factor in the time to "get to the station in time for your train".



I'm assuming that's the official FGW justification now?

It's funny how ATOC tie themselves in knots with this. The cheaper Advance fares justify the eye-watering Anytime fares, apparently, because the majority of people don't buy walk-up tickets. Yet the cheaper Advance fares "devalue a premium product". Which is it? It can't be both.

I'm assuming standard class Advance tickets "devalue" standard class too? After all, most people in standard won't be paying "full whack", and ATOC actually celebrate this as a good thing. Is it somehow different in standard?



FGW receives- overall- a subsidy of 6.4p per passenger mile (up from 4.5p last year). It's all on the DafT website. Have a look. It's interesting how one service is "making a profit" and one is "not commercially sustainable".

But whilst all this is fascinating stuff, you've not actually explained why I'm wrong. People who would buy Advance tickets in first won't necessarily downgrade to standard, they'll look at alternative transport. That may even be the intention, because if everyone in first class did downgrade to standard the "significant capacity increase" FGW are shouting about would be about 25-30 seats on a full HST set.

No, I don't work for FGW, just tired of people posting here - and on the FGW coffeeshop forum - who seem to think that being able to buy dirt-cheap first advances to the West Country is some kind of human right. Because that seems to be about the only argument I've seen advanced for why FGW should keep on providing 2 or 2.5 first class coaches on its HSTs.

The number of advance tickets sold is in single figures as a percentage of overall sales across the network.

Fact is that first class seats are not being filled as they used to be, and leaving them running around empty, when demand otherwise on FGW services is continuing to grow - and not just commuting from Reading - is not sensible.

As for downgrading, what has actually been going on as far as I can see is people upgrading to first class, as the price differentials with standard were reduced so much.

The plane is not the only way to get to London from Cornwall for an early-morning meeting - have you not heard of the Night Riviera? - and just how many people have to make such journeys from Cornwall first thing in the morning on a regular basis anyway? Clearly not enough to make the flights viable without that subsidy.

Since the planes are so fast and such a bargain, I'm surprised you even bother with a train anyway.

 

[richw]

I expect the fact that many businesses have banned first class travel on expense claims to have heavily contributed to the reduction in first class numbers.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Has anyone managed to sample the new 1st Class interior on the FGW HSTs yet?

 

[455driver]

Has anyone managed to sample the new 1st Class interior on the FGW HSTs yet?

Yes, the carpet is a bit 'loud', there are too many single (front to back) seats and only 1 pair of single seats facing across a table.

Apart from that it is very nice.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes, the carpet is a bit 'loud', there are too many single (front to back) seats and only 1 pair of single seats facing across a table.

Apart from that it is very nice.

Like you say, pity they didn't fit a couple more of the single facing seats as they also prevent the types that like to use the other spare seat to dump their belongings on from doing so. Thanks for the info.

 

[Flamingo]

Given most business travellers are solo, in my experience, I would say the single seats are a good idea. My main "don't know" about it yet is the lighting. It seems a bit dim.

 

[CKiltie]

I will hopefully be giving the new First Class a try from around 10 days time with my Brit Rail pass. Will see how it goes as I have no idea which services will have it or not. Will try and get the 10:06 from Paddington on one of the days anyway.

 

[455driver]

Given most business travellers are solo, in my experience, I would say the single seats are a good idea. My main "don't know" about it yet is the lighting. It seems a bit dim.

Doesn't it automatically adjust relative to the light entering the carriage from outside?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given most business travellers are solo, in my experience, I would say the single seats are a good idea. My main "don't know" about it yet is the lighting. It seems a bit dim.

Better than the horrible daylight glare in Standard. *No* lighting would be better than that absolutely horrible environment - cold and stark. Everything rail travel should not be.

Which is a shame as I like the seats.

As for single First Class seats, I prefer these if travelling alone, and as you say most business travellers are travelling alone.

Neil

 

[455driver]

What about couples/friends travelling together, they will have to take a bay of 4 now.

 

[Flamingo]

What about couples/friends travelling together, they will have to take a bay of 4 now.

They always did!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doesn't it automatically adjust relative to the light entering the carriage from outside?

Yes, but the one evening train I worked on a new set, the only word I would use to describe it was gloomy. I would have hated to be trying to read a book in it - fine for electronic screens, but that would be it.

 

[Ash Bridge]

This is just slightly of topic, Could anyone confirm if any of the 1972 prototype mk3 trailer cars are still operating in the FGW HSTs or indeed in any other operators HST sets? I know a short while back FGW repainted one to the original Prototype style white with blue window surrounds, but was that a production series vehicle?

 

[455driver]

This is just slightly of topic, Could anyone confirm if any of the 1972 prototype mk3 trailer cars are still operating in the FGW HSTs or indeed in any other operators HST sets?

Yes they are.

I know a short while back FGW repainted one to the original Prototype style white with blue window surrounds, but was that a production series vehicle?

42353 (I think it was) which was a 1972 prototype and was even given its original number while painted white, it is back to being just another TSD in standard livery.